Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

I thought the review was pretty poor myself...and really written more by a fan than someone familiar with film music.

In general, a pretty worthless review, and hardly worth discussing.

Discuss.

[Barnald 365]

You're being far more blunt than I am, but I agree.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Yes, apologies to whoever wrote this over at TOR...I know he meant well, and I'm probably being too critical. I just didn't find this early review, apparently the only one out there right now, as helpful as it could have been.

So, TOR Desolation of Smaug Sountrack early review write, I apologise for any offence or any hurt, bruised or spindled feelings.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Give a time stamp please because I would think I am going mad had I overheard this.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jim Ware 526]

I thought the review was pretty poor myself...and really written more by a fan than someone familiar with film music.

In general, a pretty worthless review, and hardly worth discussing.

Discuss.

Agreed. It makes no attempt to contextualise the score in Shore's wider Middle-Earth framework.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Denethor and Smaug, united in Nature!

[Barnald 365]

It's at 23:30 but may be a variation of Smaug's theme. Or Smaug is forming new allies!

When I first heard that part I thought it sounded a bit like the opening of the 'Minas Tirith (Silver Trumpets)' theme. It's in 'Girion, Lord of Dale', so I suppose it could be related to Smaug, though it sounds a bit downbeat.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

Maybe we find out Smaug paid a visit to Gondor and caused problems there after destroying Dale

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

I'm not hearing Gondorn Reborn.....

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It's definitely a very similar gesture to Minas Tirith. But my hunch is it's purely coincidental.

[Jay 37,364]

I think so too.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[luke905 18]

It's at 23:30 but may be a variation of Smaug's theme. Or Smaug is forming new allies!

I do not think it is Gondor Reborn, but yes, there are similarities

[gkgyver 1,645]

There are similar figures in The Hobbit; I think it has more connections to The Dwarf Lords.

[Faleel 5,348]

Cool!

Very Cool.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Timestamps for The Dwarf Lords in AUJ?

[Jay 37,364]

It only appears at 3:43 of An Unexpected Party (that's the B section actually), and then the "The Dwarf Lords" theme presentation. I assume it will return in TABA, since Dain doesn't appear until then (it plays in AUP when he's mentioned)

[KK 3,307]

There is no Gondor Reborn in these samples. You're just hearing what you want to hear. There may be structural similarities, but such resemblances are superficial and exist across many themes or motifs used.

[luke905 18]

Although it has been mentioned Zimmer and The Lion King, I think Beyond the Forest has some points in common with Ennio Morricone (composer that Zimmer has always looked carefully) and The Mission.
Listen to clips from 43:02 and then here:

Is a wonderful piece and I find it fantastic that there are composers as Shore who still write extremely melodic themes in the style of Morricone and Barry.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Another curiosity is what the motif from Kingsfoil that is reprised by the strings around the 35 minute mark. Is it played to that effect or was that added later after it was distorted or something? Sounded strange.

Doesn't sound distorted to me. Is that flautando?

Are we sure it isn't con sord sul pont?

To me it sounds like the strings are being manipulated with a band-pass filter from the console (lo-pass + hi-pass).

Whatever it it is, it's something Doug could really enlighten us on once the NDAs pass.

Another thought that came to me is that the engineer might being using the distant mikes to pick up the string section in that passage. Maybe woodwind or choir mikes, or ambients up in Wellington Town Hall's gallery.

That's how Bernard Herrmann recorded the 8 female singers (4 altos, 4 sopranos) in OBSESSION - placing them in the organ loft of St Giles-without-Cripplegate Church. Their sound that came down from the organ loft was recorded by the string mike, giving a certain eerie, muted quality.

[Incanus 5,714]

I may be going mad but I think I hear Gondor Revorn in these previews!

After it's use in AUJ, it's not entirely impossible. If it is used, and the nazgul theme, I'm a little glad. Makes the bold statements in AUJ less jarring.

And it makes the bold statements in ROTK feel less special! Yay!

I never understood why Shore used the Bilbo/Thorin friendship theme for Gondor anyway.

No one did BB. No one did.

But it might be the same situation as some people were hearing the Fate of the Ring in the opening of the Moon Runes and Doug Adams refuted that as conincidence. Sounds somewhat the same but isn't.

There is no Gondor Reborn in these samples. You're just hearing what you want to hear. There may be structural similarities, but such resemblances are superficial and exist across many themes or motifs used.

Why would he want to hear the bloody Reborn theme in DoS? Don't tell me SUH has gone off the deep end in his fandom now?

[KK 3,307]

There is no Gondor Reborn in these samples. You're just hearing what you want to hear. There may be structural similarities, but such resemblances are superficial and exist across many themes or motifs used.

Why would he want to hear the bloody Reborn theme in DoS? Don't tell me SUH has gone off the deep end in his fandom now?

Hehe. I think SUH, in his perfect fantasy world, would rather believe that the Nazgul Theme and Gondor Reborn Themes were used in AUJ as a part of Shore's master grand plan (even if it meant altering their purpose entirely by design) than admit that it was just a simple case of tracking at its finest.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It's interesting to me that a lot of Kingsfold has some marked similarities with Giacchino's Lost music, if in fact that scene involves Tauriel.

Also, my final opinion on the Sheeran song is that other than the opening crooning, I'm a fan.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[tannhauser 101]

I haven't heard the DOS sample, but the gondor reborn theme is also note for note with the minas tirith theme, a bit of warg scouts, and the Christ theme in Ben hur! It's probably coincidence

[Alex Shore 83]

Also, the Gondor Reborn theme appears on Alexander Glazunov "From the Middle Ages"

04:00

05:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M75qlvOxJRU

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

If we recall that hint of Thorin's theme at the end of 'One of the Dunedain', the connection with Gondor is obvious. Evidently Arwen was at the centre of an intense love triangle at some point, possibly depicted in 'There and Back Again'.

[Bilbo 3,709]

There is no Gondor Reborn in these samples. You're just hearing what you want to hear. There may be structural similarities, but such resemblances are superficial and exist across many themes or motifs used.

Why would he want to hear the bloody Reborn theme in DoS? Don't tell me SUH has gone off the deep end in his fandom now?

Hehe. I think SUH, in his perfect fantasy world, would rather believe that the Nazgul Theme and Gondor Reborn Themes were used in AUJ as a part of Shore's master grand plan (even if it meant altering their purpose entirely by design) than admit that it was just a simple case of tracking at its finest.

Nazgul theme wasn't tracked

[Faleel 5,348]

Yes. it was lifted.

Just like DOTF in AOTC, The Clash of Lightsabers in ROTS, and Flight from Peru in KOTCS.

It's interesting to me that a lot of Kingsfold has some marked similarities with Giacchino's Lost music.

I thought of Giacchino myself (though Letting Go from Super 8, not LOST)

[Lewya 360]

Samples are out on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FFT1BJ0/

Listening to it now, anything new?

Edit: No new material it seems.

[KK 3,307]

There is no Gondor Reborn in these samples. You're just hearing what you want to hear. There may be structural similarities, but such resemblances are superficial and exist across many themes or motifs used.

Why would he want to hear the bloody Reborn theme in DoS? Don't tell me SUH has gone off the deep end in his fandom now?

Hehe. I think SUH, in his perfect fantasy world, would rather believe that the Nazgul Theme and Gondor Reborn Themes were used in AUJ as a part of Shore's master grand plan (even if it meant altering their purpose entirely by design) than admit that it was just a simple case of tracking at its finest.

Nazgul theme wasn't tracked

Lifted, tracked, they both essentially serve the same purpose and are used for the same reason. I saw no reason to distinguish between the two terms

[Incanus 5,714]

Let's hope that the Desolation of Smaug is free of such obvious temp-tracking moments or abrupt or puzzling thematic statements, both the album and the film.

[Barnald 365]

There was no word of additional recording sessions at Wellington Town Hall, or of need of the NZSO or London Voices. Surely this is positive? True there is still the danger of tracked music from previous films.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

There was no word of additional recording sessions at Wellington Town Hall, or of need of the NZSO or London Voices. Surely this is positive? True there is still the danger of tracked music from previous films.

That would explain why you guys don't hear any statement of the Company's theme in the samples. All the statements of that theme in DOS will be taken from the previous film.

[Barnald 365]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but I have been thinking that myself...

[gkgyver 1,645]

PJ has 13 hours of music to fall back on. It's a feast for tracking-lovers! Why record new stuff?

[Faleel 5,348]

Shore pre-planned the tracking with Jackson!

Its the prequels all over again!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

So why so we think/know tracking occurs. Are there any interviews with composers or directors where they explain why it happens. To me it seems to happen when they're not happy with some music but don't want to/can't afford to record more music and so use music from previous films because they have the rights to them.

There, you answered your own question.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but I have been thinking that myself...

BloodBoal is always serious. He's no joker.

Oh and he also has a knack for foretelling doom, so....

Seems like a good enough reason to me.

Doesn't really excuse the decisions made though.

So why so we think/know tracking occurs. Are there any interviews with composers or directors where they explain why it happens. To me it seems to happen when they're not happy with some music but don't want to/can't afford to record more music and so use music from previous films because they have the rights to them.

Yes. it was lifted.

Just like DOTF in AOTC, The Clash of Lightsabers in ROTS, and Flight from Peru in KOTCS.

It's interesting to me that a lot of Kingsfold has some marked similarities with Giacchino's Lost music.

I thought of Giacchino myself (though Letting Go from Super 8, not LOST)

So Bree is 'lifted' from LOTR?

No. It's clearly a small, set-specific leitmotif that was well integrated into the new music.

Requoting an entire theme like Gondor Reborn with little to on changes in orchestration or pasting in variations of popular themes that don't belong is a different matter entirely...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Seems like a good enough reason to me.

The point is that PJ must like the adrenaline pumps that come while editing the film one week before locking it for distribution.

So a lot of his musical decisions could be avoided if he made up his mind when he should....