mahler3 478 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Yeah Dracula is horribly muffled isn't it! Maybe Eric was having a bad day or perhaps Anvil was used instead of Abbey Rd can't remember? Don't have the CD's at hand so can't check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Eric Tomlinson has a lot to answer too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 I'll just put in my 2p: Cakes for Crabba and Goyle sounds 100% Williams, not someone trying to imitate him. I've only heard one score by Ross (T-Rex imax score), and nothing came even remotely close to what Williams is capable of. I always put the slightly lacking quality of some cues in CoS simply down to the lack of time Williams had to write it.Maybe that's because Ross was writing in his own style for the IMAX score, and not an intentional mimic of Williams' style.I'd bet that at least 50% of film composers are well aware of Williams' style and would be quite capable of imitating it (though how well they do it is of course a completely different matter). I listen to Giacchino's early Medal of Honor scores and the similarities to Williams are obvious. But then I listen to LOST or ALIAS and his own style completely takes over - in fact there's nary a trumpet to be heard in either of those shows.I still don't understand why people are so upset at the idea that Ross could imitate Williams' style. People like John Debney have made their careers out of it.I can tell you, as a composer, that this is simply not the case. Most composers working for film today aren´t really trained, which you have to be in order to write at that level. Even most highly skilled classical composers wouldn´t be able to.Sure, aping a style on a very superficial level might be possible, but that is something else entirely.And Debney doesn´t even come close, nor does Giacchino! A brass fanfare or a trumpet melody does not equal "Williams style".I can think of only a handful of living composers who possess the technical facility of Williams. None of them are film composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Presumptious!Remember, Williams was involved with this score, as were his orchestrators, who could have tweaked things.The biggest probmen with this whole CoS business is the insecurity of some people who have listened to John Williams for years, call themselves experts, but cannot positively identify if Williams did certain cues or Ross.Therefore Williams must have done them all!It's really sad, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Presumptious!Remember, Williams was involved with this score, as were his orchestrators, who could have tweaked things.The biggest probmen with this whole CoS business is the insecurity of some people who have listened to John Williams for years, call themselves experts, but cannot positively identify if Williams did certain cues or Ross.Therefore Williams must have done them all!It's really sad,Are you sure you´re not the one being a little presumptious here?Listen, Williams´orchestrators, well, they really are more like copyists (have you seen his sketches, Stefan? You don´t have to be a genius to figure out how to blow them up to a full orchestral score!).I don´t think I have more to add to this, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Are you sure you´re not the one being a little presumptious here?Yes, but I'm always like that, so that's OK.Listen, Williams´orchestrators, well, they really are more like copyists (have you seen his sketches, Stefan? You don´t have to be a genius to figure out how to blow them up to a full orchestral score!).Interesting that you seen to didge the first part of my question and jumop straight to the orchestrators.Maybe John Williams himself did a bit a of tweaking. I'm not saying he must have, but I'm saying it's not impossible.Also, people like Conrad Pope have been working with Williams for years, don't tell me they don't know anything about his style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Are you sure you´re not the one being a little presumptious here?Yes, but I'm always like that, so that's OK.Listen, Williams´orchestrators, well, they really are more like copyists (have you seen his sketches, Stefan? You don´t have to be a genius to figure out how to blow them up to a full orchestral score!).Interesting that you seen to didge the first part of my question and jumop straight to the orchestrators.Maybe John Williams himself did a bit a of tweaking. I'm not saying he must have, but I'm saying it's not impossible.Also, people like Conrad Pope have been working with Williams for years, don't tell me they don't know anything about his style? Yes, I´m sure Conrad Pope knows a good deal about Williams´style.I´m unsure whether he could actually write in that idiom, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Again you dodge one of my other questions.Don't you think it's possible that with help of Williams himself, or the people who have worked with Williams for a long time, and a previous score to base it on, William Ross might be able to do a convincing facsimile of some minor John Williams comedy-type music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Again you dodge one of my other questions.Don't you think it's possible that with help of Williams himself, or the people who have worked with Williams for a long time, and a previous score to base it on, William Ross might be able to do a convincing facsimile of some minor John Williams comedy-type music?I tend to trust Bill Wrobel on this one. All the sketches were in Williams' distinctive handwriting. Something must have happened."However, when I looked at the sketches, I discovered that Williams did indeed compose all of the music. So what Ross did exactly besides some conducting work, I am not sure."Unless Ross has the same exact handwriting... Not likelyWilliams' memory is faulty on this point: The Fury was recorded in February 78, but Superman sessions didn't start until July.You mean the LSO Fury was recorded before Superman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Ware 526 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 You mean the LSO Fury was recorded before Superman?From the spectacularly useful LSO discography:The Fury album re-recording* - recorded 9-10 February 1978(All Saints, Tooting)Superman - recorded 6,7,10,11,13-14 July, 7,9-11 September, 6,15,24,31 October & 4 November 1978(Anvil Studios)Dracula - recorded 24,30 April, 1,4 & 16 May 1979(Anvil)Is it possible that Williams was visiting the set of Superman during filming, and happened to record The Fury while he was there?*The original scoring sessions for The Fury took place on January 16-18 at Fox in Los Angeles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salacius 7 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 16. Polyjuice Potion / Ross 17. Cakes For Crabbe And Goyle/ RossHorsefeathers. If Ross wrote either of those I'll eat my hat. Any hat, you choose.John- sick of this debate but couldn't let that pass"Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" doesn't include much more than permutations of existing themes: Nimbus 2000, the Sorcerer's Stone motif, the Spiders motif and the Chamber of Secrets theme. Speaking of the Stone motif, most would agree that it is misused in Chamber of Secrets, with the music schizophrenically alternating between it and the new Chamber theme. Williams doesn't generally mess up his themes like this; however, all uses of the Stone motif are recycled, so Ross was probably the culprit. "Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" includes the Stone motif as well as other reused Sorcerer's Stone music ("The Arrival of Baby Harry"). That only leaves Nimbus 2000 on tuba and the Chamber theme, and it seems like no great feat for somebody other than Williams to have written them.I don't remember much from "Polyjuice Potion" other than some use of Nimbus 2000, but I do remember it (haha) being unmemorable.I stand by that. Dunno man, there is something going on with those ques. Either on the orchestration, some of the wood passages and some of the harmonic progressions too. Just didn't strike me as Williams. But not trying to say it was a bad job. In fact I love that score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 So basically what all of you conspiracy theorists are saying is that John Williams did exactly what Williams Ross was supposed to do; write 40 mins of new music and copy the rest from HP:SS?Is it possible that Williams was visiting the set of Superman during filming, and happened to record The Fury while he was there?I believe he did visit the set. I think it's mentioned on the DVD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 So basically what all of you conspiracy theorists are saying is that John Williams did exactly what Williams Ross was supposed to do; write 40 mins of new music and copy the rest from HP:SS?the problem is it's more than 40 minutes.You base this figure in a number Williams gave in 1 interview early in production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 True, it could be 43 minutes, it could be 60 or 70.How important is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Superman - recorded 6,7,10,11,13-14 July, 7,9-11 September, 6,15,24,31 October & 4 November 1978(Anvil Studios)Wow, why so many spread out sessions? Last second editing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Frankly, who CARES? All the important and magnificent cue like Fawkes The Phoenix or Dueling The Basilisk are by Williams anyway, who cares whether Ross wrote or adapted some filler music?Williams in a rush is still better than anything by William Ross, so why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Frankly, who CARES? All the important and magnificent cue like Fawkes The Phoenix or Dueling The Basilisk are by Williams anyway, who cares whether Ross wrote or adapted some filler music?Williams in a rush is still better than anything by William Ross, so why bother?Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 True, it could be 43 minutes, it could be 60 or 70.How important is this?Apparently life and death to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 I can tell you, as a composer, that this is simply not the case. Most composers working for film today aren´t really trained, which you have to be in order to write at that level. Even most highly skilled classical composers wouldn´t be able to.Sure, aping a style on a very superficial level might be possible, but that is something else entirely.That's exactly what I'm suggesting - on a very superficial level. However, if a composer (say Ross) wrote on that level but also had access to Williams' orchestrators and previous scores I'm certain that a convincing score could come out of it. And that's what I think happened. And Debney doesn´t even come close, nor does Giacchino! A brass fanfare or a trumpet melody does not equal "Williams style".I can think of only a handful of living composers who possess the technical facility of Williams. None of them are film composers.I didn't mean Debney specifically had a Williams sound, but to me he has no unique voice. He is talented and extremely versatile, but sometimes a particular sound by a particular composer is better than someone who can do anything. As for Giacchino, listen to the three major Medal of Honor scores of his (Medal of Honor, Underground and Frontline). The similarities to Williams writing circa Last Crusade are obvious, as well as intentional.Again, I never meant to imply that composers are able to mimic everything Williams can do. But everyone here knows that there are certain musical conventions that Williams is known for. Countless threads here are devoted to the subject, dealing with his use of major themes and motifs, repeated use of particular instrumentation and doubling, boom-tzz etc. etc. That's what I mean when I say "Williams' style". Not his talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Williams in a rush is still better than anything by William Ross, so why bother?Please. I'd take anything from My Dog Skip or Tuck Everlasting over most of Williams' 2005 scores.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahler3 478 Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Williams in a rush is still better than anything by William Ross, so why bother?Please. I'd take anything from My Dog Skip or Tuck Everlasting over most of Williams' 2005 scores.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 I wouldn't go that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Please. I'd take anything from My Dog Skip or Tuck Everlasting over most of Williams' 2005 scoresYou forgot to mention "Pirates". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 QUOTE(Elmo Bernstein @ Sep 6 2007, 12:46 AM) *These interview with Ross sheds some light on his contribution...http://www.mania.com/37027.htmlWhatever Helgii said this contradicts him.There you go.The proof finally.Ross got new music cues in the mail right up untill the end of the recording sessions,meaning Williams did go beyond the original 40 minutes he planned to write.That also explains Ross token adapting credit and why the score does indeed sound "mailed in" and rushed and why Attack of the Clones cues are in there.It also prooves Ross did conduct the score though.I hope this finally shuts up Mark Olivarez,Stefancos and Elmo Lewis insisting Ross wrote new music perfectly mimicking Williams styleKM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 QUOTE(Elmo Bernstein @ Sep 6 2007, 12:46 AM) *These interview with Ross sheds some light on his contribution...http://www.mania.com/37027.htmlKM.HORAH! The truth if revealed! Thanks to KingMark!"That night I actually called John and told him I was sending the music police to confiscate his pencil! I think he just couldn't stop writing."-Williams RossThat isn't corny at all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 It's not me it's Elmer Bernstein,a new member.I think I read this way back then and that is why I kept sticking to my theories.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oierem 152 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Finally!!!!However, Williams or not, I still think that the score, as it appears on the film, is a chaos. The new themes are great, absolutely great (mainly Chamber and Fawkes, but I also like the others). There are some moments that are great complete and original cues (Fighting the Basilisk, The Spiders, The Fliying Car...) But there are several poor choices:-Dobby's theme and the Chamber's theme are almost completely unused. Instead, we have the Philosopher's Stone theme all over the place. That is completely wrong.-A lot of cues are adaptations (more or less similiar) of cues from the first movie. It's like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Using older themes is great, but using older cues not. I don't want to blame Williams because he did his best with his schedule. -A lot of scenes have tracked music, adapted music and new music at the same time. I mean, seconds of tracked music, seconds of adapted music and seconds of new music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Wow the Truth is revealed. And it was always there...Now.. Why did Hellgi lied to us?Unless he was not the real Hellgi or he just adapted reality to fit what served Ross better. (but in the other hand, Ross was humble enough and gave Williams all the credit in the article, why would a friend of his say the contrary?...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Anyways it's pretty black and white.Whenever the music is not exactly a lift from SS it's Williams.That includes most of Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle , the AotC like quidditch music ,various unreleased cues like The Burrow and the new ending of Reunion of Friends.A lot more than 40 minutes.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Finally!!!!However, Williams or not, I still think that the score, as it appears on the film, is a chaos. The new themes are great, absolutely great (mainly Chamber and Fawkes, but I also like the others). There are some moments that are great complete and original cues (Fighting the Basilisk, The Spiders, The Fliying Car...) But there are several poor choices:-Dobby's theme and the Chamber's theme are almost completely unused. Instead, we have the Philosopher's Stone theme all over the place. That is completely wrong.-A lot of cues are adaptations (more or less similiar) of cues from the first movie. It's like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Using older themes is great, but using older cues not. I don't want to blame Williams because he did his best with his schedule.-A lot of scenes have tracked music, adapted music and new music at the same time. I mean, seconds of tracked music, seconds of adapted music and seconds of new music.That's pretty much my feeling about the score as heard in the film too. While the album works well as a listening experience, aside from a few regurgitations and less-inspired sections, the music in the film is definitely a mess.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Now that we know all music is by Williams people start saying its a mess.Way to go! (im sure you all had this same opinion before, j/k) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Oh crap, I thought this thread was finally over. And we had been proven right... by the lack of evidence or whatever. Don't feel like looking it up.I still have to study the reliability of that site, but what the article says doesn't really contradict Ray Barnsbury's Peace Act of explanation. Henry Buck also mentioned how "Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" and "Polyjuice Potion" are really Williams' music re-arranged by Ross.So, as we sort of agreed in July, it's really semantics we're fighting over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Don't feel like looking it up.ok then don't read the interview and you can also think it was invented,that's fine if you want to beleive Helgii.It's not at all semantics.You want to believe Ross composed new cues mimicking perfectly Williams and that is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 I meant I don't feel to look up where the discussion was left off the last time. I did read the interview and, as I said, I don't think it contradicts Ray's summation.It's a much-needed good catch, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 Does this mean we can finally stop arguing about this?Hooray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 It'll pop up again in a month or so, after we have another discussion on how much Williams orchestrates.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 MYTH: William Ross wrote new music for Chamber of SecretsBUSTED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 I feel vindicated, I've been claiming this for years now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 And this enormous "truth", should that make me sad, happy ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 I'll be happy if KM shuts up about it and no longer claims that Ross wrote nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 Sore loser! Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 Sore. Loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 I feel vindicated, I've been claiming this for years now!LIER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 I'll be happy if KM shuts up about it and no longer claims that Ross wrote nothing at all.he can't because Ross didn't write anything. It was all Williams as we've known all along.JW is a generous and gracious man, moreso than many of us fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 Hasn't it just been proven that Ross did work on the score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 That was never in question. Some claimed that Ross wrote (or could've written) brand new music in Williams' style, which is clearly not the case from this interview. He simply worked with what Williams had already composed, and was even getting new music from Williams as late as the recording sessions.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 No, this is not true. Some people here were claiming that Williams wrote the entire score and conducted it and that Ross' name appeared only as a contractual obligation.I've always maintained that the instances were music from HP:PS was re-used, it was most likely reworked by Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 No, this is not true. Some people here were claiming that Williams wrote the entire score and conducted it and that Ross' name appeared only as a contractual obligation.I've always maintained that the instances were music from HP:PS was re-used, it was most likely reworked by Ross.I never claimed that.The issue was that some people had no problem believing Ross could have written things like the ending of Reunion of Friends and other new material,mimicking every Williams nuance perfectly. Obviously some c.d. tracks like Book 2 and Escape from the Dursleys were recorded in several short cues,since some parts are direct SS lift and some parts are new.and no matter how you add it up,the new parts of CoS are more than 40 minutes.Of course that interview where Williams said that it was 40 minutes was way before the recording sessions where it now stated he was still sending cues in the mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 So now we're going to argue about what we disagreed about in the first place?Oh, for f*ck's sake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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