Why wasn't "Anakin's Theme" used more in AotC and RotS?

[indy4 155]

It's a beautiful theme, why wasn't it used more?

One could argue that Anakin is no longer as innocent and "pretty" as he was in TPM, and he/she would be right. But I would've loved a small snippet of the theme, similiar to the way "Across the Stars" was played as Padme sits in her ship just before confronting Anakin on Mustafar.

[Henry B 50]

That's a good question.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I think John stopped caring as much or putting as much effort into the scores (or at least into stuff like subtle thematic connections), after how his music was treated in the first one. Don't really blame him.

[Henry B 50]

It's very evident that he stopped caring. You have to wonder, though, why Anakin's theme is heard just once in Revenge of the Sith. You'd think that, since Williams had remembered to use the theme, he would have done more with it.

[Incanus 5,715]

I think Williams discarded Anakin's theme as it is connected to the innocent boy. In the next episodes Anakin has grown into a young man and that childish innocence and optimism is pretty much discarded. Williams' references to the theme in the other two films certainly reinforce this idea of Anakin's theme being a theme for Anakin's childhood as the only time it is used is when Anakin's childhood is brought up either by Padme in the beginning Episode II or by the memory of the Jappor snippet in the Episode III.

Of course it can be wondered why Williams, the master of thematic development, did not darken Anakin's theme little by little and then finally turn it into Imperial March. And there can be many reasons. The directorial orders from Lucas and the shape of the film they were making (Lucas wanted Episode II to be different and Episode III just wasn't happy go lucky adventure film), the lack of inspiration from the film, some general idea that Anakin's theme would be too bright and unfitting for the troubled young man etc. And no matter how beautiful the theme is there is no place for it in the Episodes II and III that both are about something darker than youthful adventure and optimism. Many consider this a missed opporturnity and I agree to a certain degree.

[indy4 155]

It's very evident that he stopped caring. You have to wonder, though, why Anakin's theme is heard just once in Revenge of the Sith.

It was used at all? When?

[Henry B 50]

There's a tortured strain of the theme right after Anakin has his first nightmare about Padme dying. Needless to say, it's edited out of the album.

[indy4 155]

Ah, OK, thanks.

[John Crichton 4]

There's an unreleased statement of it in AotC too.

Williams did write a new kinda loose theme associated with Anakin that's heard a few times in AotC and RotS, but it's so similar to Darth Maul's theme in TPM that it might be more of a Sith Apprentince theme than anything else.

[Incanus 5,715]

Anakin receives the new Dies Irae style motif for the Episode II and III which represents his uncontrolled anger and fear and hatred. Are you refering to that one?

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't think it was Williams dropping the ball. Obviously he didn't "forget" to use it.

maybe it was Lucas .He didn't even use the AotC album End Credits that had Anakin's theme in horn solo .And he used the Imperial March inapropriately in the Finale,making Williams re-score his original Finale.

[Incanus 5,715]

I don't think it was Williams dropping the ball. Obviously he didn't "forget" to use it.

maybe it was Lucas .He didn't even use the AotC album End Credits that had Anakin's theme in horn solo .And he used the Imperial March inapropriately in the Finale,making Williams re-score his original Finale.

We don't even know what the original finale was like. "A massive orchestral blowout" which was mentioned in the early reports from the scoring sessions could mean anything. And the whole Prequel trilogy is full of strange musical quotes made both in scoring and in tracking the music to wrong scenes.

But I agree. Williams might have used Anakin's theme more if he would have been given directions and permission to do it.

[King Mark 3,631]

I still think that re-recording of the ESB "Clash of the Light Sabers " music was not meant for the Yoda-Sidious duel ,but for some deleted scene where Anakin must have been force throwing stuff at Obi Wan.

I also think the big Trade Federation statement was not meant for the clone reveal in AotC

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Begun, this musical debate has.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's not a suitable theme for some freak whose main goal in the movie is to have sex with Padme.

[indy4 155]

I still think that re-recording of the ESB "Clash of the Light Sabers " music was not meant for the Yoda-Sidious duel ,but for some deleted scene where Anakin must have been force throwing stuff at Obi Wan.

I thought all the deleted scenes were released on the DVD?

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah,but I bet there was more of them we don't know about.

I don't think RotS is a weak score. The OST is meh,but the complete/expanded version is excellent.

[indy4 155]

I can't pick between TPM and RotS as my favorite prequel score, they're both brilliant.

I also really really like AotC, even though it is definetly the weakest of the SW scores.

[King Mark 3,631]

AotC is the weakest of all SW scores ,but not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be . I 'd buy an expanded AotC instantly

[ins 42]

AotC is the weakest of all SW scores ,but not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be . I 'd buy an expanded AotC instantly

truly spoken!

[Ollie 1,059]

I think John stopped caring as much or putting as much effort into the scores (or at least into stuff like subtle thematic connections), after how his music was treated in the first one. Don't really blame him.

I agree.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

AotC is the weakest of all SW scores ,but not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be . I 'd buy an expanded AotC instantly

No its worse, its crap, trash, POS. its a terrible score, its as if JW channel Zimmer.

It shouldnt have the name Star Wars attached.

[Ollie 1,059]

Eh, I'd still buy an expanded set of the prequel scores.

[oierem 152]

I still think that re-recording of the ESB "Clash of the Light Sabers " music was not meant for the Yoda-Sidious duel ,but for some deleted scene where Anakin must have been force throwing stuff at Obi Wan.

I also think the big Trade Federation statement was not meant for the clone reveal in AotC

The re-recording of Clash of the Lightsabers WAS meant for Yoda-Sidious I think. After all , it's not a real re-recording, and the Imperial March fits the scene (as for the Emperor and his Empire, and beacuse they say that "Darth Vader will become more powerfull..." The deleted scene you mention didn't make so far and Williams never spot it. According to everything we know about the score, there was no tracking in those scenes and the music fits the movie perfectly.

About the Trade Federation.. that's more tricky, but I still think that it was meant to that scene.

And by the way, the "strange theme quotes" also appear in the Original Trilogy.

Back to the topic, I also think that Anakin's theme was too "childish" for Episodes II and III. However, the thene does appear in both episodes. Besides, if the theme was used more prominently, it would be logical to use again in Episode VI. As it is now, you don't miss the theme when Anakin is unmasked.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually it was expected that Anakin's theme would gradually change thru the films until it reached the Imperial March. I think Williams may have mentioned that as well.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Yeah. And when you have no idea where and even if your music will appear in the film, why bother? Lucas really sucks.

[Vaderbait1 1]

There are so many maddening missed opportunities in the Prequel scores. Across the Stars and Anakin's Theme should have been used more for musical continuity. Instead of using tracked music so much new music should have been used.

They're still good scores, and I want them completed, but there are many moments of "If only..."

[crocodile 8,018]

Actually it was expected that Anakin's theme would gradually change thru the films until it reached the Imperial March. I think Williams may have mentioned that as well.

He talked a lot about his approach when composing this theme and that it anticipates the rise of Darth Vader, musically. But he didn't really say anything beyond that, like morphing it as the story goes along. Nothing that I can recall. So it's a fan talk in the end, I think.

Karol

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Eh, I'd still buy an expanded set of the prequel scores.

only because you're somewhat of a completist.

You've got to admit, you've got more cd's than you really could ever listen too

It would have to be a really bad day to look into your collection and go today I feel like listening to Attack of the Clones.

its sort of like saying today I'd like to cut off my boys with some pinking shears.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Princess Leia - Han Solo and the Princess - Luke and Leia

Anakin - Across the Stars - Darth Vader

More or less a similar progression for both.

Still Leia's was more interconnected, but as it has been said, anakin, is for the child.

[Wojo 2,453]

Actually it was expected that Anakin's theme would gradually change thru the films until it reached the Imperial March. I think Williams may have mentioned that as well.

I remember that philosophy being conveyed in the years between 1999 and 2002, back when I perused (lurked) this MB for information and sources to make an expanded Episode I soundtrack, and heard how many snippets of the Imperial March were included in Episode I. Small ones, to be sure, not enough to make an impact, and certainly overshadowed by Anakin's innocent childhood theme. But I had been hoping it would've been more tightly adhered to in Episode II, instead of jumping the gun and playing the full-blown Imperial March when the proto-star destroyers lifted off of Coruscant. Across the Stars was similar enough to the Imperial March in several aspects, particularly in the descending lines and the unstable wavering bridge, to be a progression of the theme, but it was diluted by the finale to the film. I was hoping that The Imperial March would've been saved for showing Darth Vader in his full black suited glory, instead of earlier as a still-human Darth Vader, saving Qui-Gon's funeral music for the revealing of Vader's armor.

Oh well, what's done is done.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Since we are on the subject, does anyone have information about an official expanded release of the "Star Wars: Prequel Trilogy" scores? I have no problem with any of John Williams' work for the prequels, and I would gladly purchase the Compact Discs, so long as they are in the same format as that of the "Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition" releases.

[MissPadmé 17]

Since we are on the subject, does anyone have information about an official expanded release of the "Star Wars: Prequel Trilogy" scores? I have no problem with any of John Williams' work for the prequels, and I would gladly purchase the Compact Discs, so long as they are in the same format as that of the "Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition" releases.

Yes I have a Lucasfilm 10 Disc Edition Promo of the three scores at home, it's fantastic!

[Wojo 2,453]

Holy moly, how did you get that!?

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

I'm curious what JWs response to this question would be.

[Red 75]

Whatever the reason was it was a mistake on Williams' part.

[Jacob 0]

Since we are on the subject, does anyone have information about an official expanded release of the "Star Wars: Prequel Trilogy" scores? I have no problem with any of John Williams' work for the prequels, and I would gladly purchase the Compact Discs, so long as they are in the same format as that of the "Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition" releases.

Yes I have a Lucasfilm 10 Disc Edition Promo of the three scores at home, it's fantastic!

LIAR!!!

AotC is the weakest of all SW scores ,but not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be . I 'd buy an expanded AotC instantly

No its worse, its crap, trash, POS. its a terrible score, its as if JW channel Zimmer.

It shouldnt have the name Star Wars attached.

Wow.

Glad to see your opinion of the score has improved.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Since we are on the subject, does anyone have information about an official expanded release of the "Star Wars: Prequel Trilogy" scores? I have no problem with any of John Williams' work for the prequels, and I would gladly purchase the Compact Discs, so long as they are in the same format as that of the "Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition" releases.

Yes I have a Lucasfilm 10 Disc Edition Promo of the three scores at home, it's fantastic!

Sounds like you've stolen FSM's next box.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

its for serious losers only.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

"Anakin's Theme" and "Luke and Leia" are two fantastic themes that were vastly underused.

[King Mark 3,631]

Luke and Leia has only 2 or 3 quotes in RotJ .Parade of the Ewoks not much more.

[John Crichton 4]

I still say Luke and Leia was used as much as appropriate.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yeah, it really wasn't needed in the prequels either.

[Desplat13 1]

AotC is the weakest of all SW scores ,but not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be . I 'd buy an expanded AotC instantly

For sure.

And as far as Anakin's Theme being to childish, I really have to disagree. It was childish in TPM because (guess what?), he was a child. But it has real potential to mature into anything Anakin does.

Really, the story of the prequels is good, and afforded so much more than we got, musically and filmically. It is why I still like those movies; certainly not flawless or even good execution, but I can enjoy them for the ideas and possibilities in them.

[Vaderbait1 1]

AotC is the weakest of all SW scores ,but not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be . I 'd buy an expanded AotC instantly

For sure.

And as far as Anakin's Theme being to childish, I really have to disagree. It was childish in TPM because (guess what?), he was a child. But it has real potential to mature into anything Anakin does.

Really, the story of the prequels is good, and afforded so much more than we got, musically and filmically. It is why I still like those movies; certainly not flawless or even good execution, but I can enjoy them for the ideas and possibilities in them.

Agreed. The reason I do enjoy the prequels is because of the story and music. There are a lot of flaws (mainly, acting and dialogue), but I always got mad when people said the story sucked. With a little spruced up dialogue showing more inflection and whatnot, it would have been an entirely different trilogy.

And to whoever joked about having a 10 disc set, that's not very nice!

[MissPadmé 17]

Short question, I got this from imdb.com-ROTS trivia:

Composer John Williams added to his opening score an homage to composer Joel McNeely's work from the score to "Shadows of the Empire", which was a set of books, toys, and a video game written to take place between Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) and Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983). It can be heard briefly during the battle scene over Coruscant.

now is that true? I dont hear anything, or this just imdb.com trivia bulls***??

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Yeah, it really wasn't needed in the prequels either.

I only needed a small quote when the twins are together at their birth.

Just imdb.com trivia bulls***

Spot on definition.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think Williams discarded Anakin's theme as it is connected to the innocent boy. In the next episodes Anakin has grown into a young man and that childish innocence and optimism is pretty much discarded. Williams' references to the theme in the other two films certainly reinforce this idea of Anakin's theme being a theme for Anakin's childhood as the only time it is used is when Anakin's childhood is brought up either by Padme in the beginning Episode II or by the memory of the Jappor snippet in the Episode III.

Of course it can be wondered why Williams, the master of thematic development, did not darken Anakin's theme little by little and then finally turn it into Imperial March. And there can be many reasons. The directorial orders from Lucas and the shape of the film they were making (Lucas wanted Episode II to be different and Episode III just wasn't happy go lucky adventure film), the lack of inspiration from the film, some general idea that Anakin's theme would be too bright and unfitting for the troubled young man etc. And no matter how beautiful the theme is there is no place for it in the Episodes II and III that both are about something darker than youthful adventure and optimism. Many consider this a missed opporturnity and I agree to a certain degree.

You couldn't have said better than this. Congrats!

[Ollie 1,059]

Short question, I got this from imdb.com-ROTS trivia:

Composer John Williams added to his opening score an homage to composer Joel McNeely's work from the score to "Shadows of the Empire", which was a set of books, toys, and a video game written to take place between Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) and Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983). It can be heard briefly during the battle scene over Coruscant.

now is that true? I dont hear anything, or this just imdb.com trivia bulls***??

Somehow I doubt Williams has even heard McNeely's Shadow score....

[MrScratch 294]

Somehow I doubt Williams has even heard McNeely's Shadow score....

Exactly, he doesn't even remember his own music!