GAME OF THRONES

[Incanus 5,716]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

So after seeing this week's episode, entirely on my own I came up with a theory that

 

(spoiler-blocking anyway, even though its pure speculation)

 

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Bran's Uncle Benjen Stark will show up next week to help Bran and Meera.  I mean, think about it;  They are alone in the woods, Bran can't walk, Meera can only drag him for so long, and Hodor holding that door will only delay the wights not stop them.  They're gonna need SOME assistance or they are dead meat.  About the only character that we already know about that COULD come to their rescue is Benjen, and him re-appearing now makes a lot more sense than a brand new character showing up.

 

Anyways, just found this article now that has a pretty convincing argument for me being right

 

 

CLICKY (spoiler warning: Contains information from IMDB and the "next time on GOT" preview for next week's episode)

Yeah I spotted the info earlier this week on IMDB page for next week's episode. The actor listing had a small spoiler indeed.

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

That "information" also appeared on IMDb last year for Season 5, so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt and smoke.

 

There's also this comment from a recent interview:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I hope that there hasn't been any recasting...

[Jay 37,374]

Every Major “Game Of Thrones” Death So Far, Ranked By Sadness

 

Don't agree with the order, but it's a nice summary of the stakes of the game so far

[Bilbo 3,709]

On 24 May 2016 at 2:29 PM, Incanus said:

The novel version was better. This was obviously doing some heavy plot bulldozing to get us to the next phase in the action.

 

No it wasn't. It was meandering bullshit like everything else in Feast and Dance. 

[Incanus 5,716]

1 hour ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

 

No it wasn't. It was meandering bullshit like everything else in Feast and Dance. 

Oh quit yer whining! It had a cool dragon luring horn which automatically trumps the series version!

[Jay 37,374]

Marcy and I signed up for a Free Month of HBO Now today.  Now we'll get to watch the rest of the season live on Sunday nights and not worry about getting spoiled all day Monday!

The other nice thing was that the episode (which seemed to be available to play right at 9:00 EST) contains the "Previously On" segment at the beginning, and then also the "Next Time On" at the end.  After that came a little "Inside Game of Thrones" video (which I think are the same ones that show up on HBO's youtube channel the next day after each episode).  They confirmed Benjen Stark = Coldhands and pointed out that Danaerys deliberately echoes Drogo's speech from season 1.

 

 

BTW, did Emelia Clarke get top billing this week with Peter Dinklage and Kit Harrington sitting out the episode?

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

Joseph Mawle is such a troll!

 

2 hours ago, Jay said:

BTW, did Emelia Clarke get top billing this week with Peter Dinklage and Kit Harrington sitting out the episode?

 

Nikolai Coster-Waldau first, then Lena Headey, then Emilia Clarke.

 

2 hours ago, Jay said:

They confirmed Benjen Stark = Coldhands...

 

You've probably seen it before, but the "Benjen = Coldhands" conjecture was explicitly denied by George R.R. Martin in manuscript comments to his editor. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that Dan Weiss called him "Coldhands" here; it's not as though they needed a cryptic pseudonym for the hooded figure since it was obviously Benjen from the time he spoke, and confirmed to be him in his next scene...

[Bilbo 3,709]

They probably realised that having Coldhands be someone else was convoluted and pointless so straightened things out so it wouldn't suck!

[Incanus 5,716]

5 minutes ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

They probably realised that having Coldhands be someone else was convoluted and pointless so straightened things out so it wouldn't suck!

 

Yeah! Cut to the chase George! Meanders belong in a river not your story!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The first half was a tad slow, but probably because the Samwell/Gilly and the Ayra storylines are currently the one I'm least interested in. The fraught family dinner was well done, and it was interesting to see the Tully's. But since Sam and Gilly are already leaving it was a bit pointless (other then finally introducing the Blackfish)

 

The Ayra story also had some nice moments, but it was pretty predictable. I figured she would become disenchanted with the Faceless men, who are essentially just mercenaries.

Looking forward to the upcoming fight though.

 

The King's Landing plot took an interesting turn. Not the all out battle I was hoping for. But a logical resolution anyway. I'm guessing Maerjory's conversion is fake, but Tommen's is not. Too weak and gullible a boy to withstand the two pronged persuasions of his wife and the endlessly enigmatic High Sparrow.

Jaimee being send off is another sign that the Tully's will play a major role from now on.

 

Benjen returns.....just in the nick of time too. I figured it wouldn't be long till the writers were left on their own devices till they would make him magically reappear.

And the Stark cousin who's wedding turned out to be the Red Wedding is still around too. They are really gathering up the family this season.

 

The Deanerys scene was visually impressive, but fairly pointless. It's a little too neat that last wear Euron orders 1000 ships to be built and this week she figures out she needs 1000 ships. The writing has lost some of it's subtlety this season, hasnt it?

Impressive Dragon visuals though.

[crumbs 14,319]

I found the Deanerys stuff the weakest material of the episode. How many scenes do we need to see of Dani rallying troops with her dragon at her side? It's so... boring! And it really should not be, when you consider what you're looking at!

 

I would much rather see more of Walder or Edmure or Benjen or Bran's flashbacks, etc. Nice to see a lot of loose ends being tied up though.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Jack Bender was sort of wasted on this episode.  Hopefully he does more!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

I found the Deanerys stuff the weakest material of the episode. How many scenes do we need to see of Dani rallying troops with her dragon at her side? It's so... boring! And it really should not be, when you consider what you're looking at!

 

The episode didn't need that scene at all.

 Usually these uplifting Deanerys scenes are done in specific episodes where there's a real dramatic lift to them. Here is felt completely random.

[Incanus 5,716]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

The episode didn't need that scene at all.

 Usually these uplifting Deanerys scenes are done in specific episodes where there's a real dramatic lift to them. Here is felt completely random.

Agreed. As nice as that was visually, it had very little purpose or build-up here.

 

This felt like a set-up episode if there ever was one. New conflicts. Samwell and his family, Freys, Edmure, Riverrun, Benjen, Arya's change of heart, High Sparrow's gambit for united crown and faith and the unsubtle "Dany needs about a 1000 ships".

 

I loved James Faulkner as Randal Tarly. He is such a deliciously villanous actor. I would have loved to see a scene between Malahide, Dance and Faulkner in the series but that would probably be too much overweening villainy for any show.  

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Arya going back to being Arya, thank you!

 

Hope she kicks the girl trainer's face to a pulp.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

CATFIGHT!

 

[Jay 37,374]

On 5/30/2016 at 4:00 AM, Stefancos said:

The first half was a tad slow, but probably because the Samwell/Gilly and the Ayra storylines are currently the one I'm least interested in. The fraught family dinner was well done, and it was interesting to see the Tully's. But since Sam and Gilly are already leaving it was a bit pointless (other then finally introducing the Blackfish)

 

You're a bit mixed up here, Steef.

 

Sam's last name is Tarly, and it was Horn Hill (the home of House Tarly) that Sam and Gilly went too.  This is way down South, almost in Dorne actually, in the area known as The Reach.  (Which explains why it took Sam 6 episodes to get there from The Wall)  And yes, that dinner scene was fraught with uncomfortable tension!  Sam's dad is not The Blackfish at all, his name is Randyll Tarly,

 

The last name of Tully is for Catelyn's family.  Catelyn was Catelyn Tully before she married Ned Stark;  Her brother Edmure Tully is "the Stark cousin who's wedding turned out to be the Red Wedding" you referred to (so not a Stark at all).  Since Catelyn and Edmure's dad (Hoster Tully) is dead, Edmure is the actual head of House Tully now.... but since he's been a captive of the Freys since the Red Wedding, Catelyn and Edmure's uncle Brynden Tully (Hoster's younger brother) has kinda taken over House Tully for them (and taken back their home Riverrun from the Lannisters/Freys).  His nickname is The Blackfish, and he was actually on the show back in Season 3 (he's the guy who successfully fired the arrow into the funeral boat of Hoster Tully after Edmure misses, and was a traveling companion of Robb & Cat, he attended the Red Wedding but was outside pissing when the massacre happened and escaped).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I know, but I couldnt be arsed to correct myself. Thankfully you can always be trusted to do so.

 

Jason LeBlanc has a serious case of OCD.

 

Like the previous episode this one dealt with stuff that in hindsight should have been put in season 4 instead.

[Jay 37,374]

Huh?  Why would it have made sense for Sam to be studying to be a maester in Season 4?  Or the Frey's asking the Lannisters for help to take back Riverrun in season 4?

It makes much more sense to do it now, when Tommen sends Jamie to oversee this for them, since he'll meet up with Brienne there, who was sent there by Jon.  Also, it makes sense it took The Blackfish this long to take back Riverrun, since the Lannister and Frey forces there would have been mighty;  It's implied The Blackfish was only able to take it back due to his knowledge of the ins and outs of the place.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If you say so.

 

But I'm sure you will agree Deanery's "We will need 1000 ships to carry my army over the sea" is far too obvious after Euron's "Built me a 1000 ships from last week"

[Jay 37,374]

Yup!  Almost laughably silly!

 

They should have had Balon die before Stannis did (to make the leech thing make sense), and have the kingsmoot happen some time during Season 4 or 5.  Theon wouldn't have been at the kingsmoot, but you still could have Euron win the kingsmoot and Yara escape, etc.

 

Then we could simply have Theon find out where Yara is and meet up with her there, and Euron would have a season of off-time as his ships are built.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Question. Was The Red Wedding ever called The Red Wedding in dialogue before. I don't recall that it was.

[Jay 37,374]

Yes I believe it was once in Season 4.

 

EDIT: It was Season 4, Episode 3

 

"The Red Wedding, they're calling it. Walder Frey committed sacrilege that day. He shared bread and salt with the Starks. He offered them guest right...The gods will have their vengeance. Frey will burn in the seventh hell for what he did."

―A Riverlands farmer loyal to the Tullys.[src]

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

...to make the leech thing make sense...

 

But does the leech thing make sense (even with Balon's death)?

 

7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Question. Was The Red Wedding ever called The Red Wedding in dialogue before. I don't recall that it was.

 

The Riverlands farmer with whom Arya and the Hound stayed mentioned it.

 

[Jay 37,374]

5 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

But does the leech thing make sense (even with Balon's death)?

 

Yes, of course it does!

 

There was 5 Kings in the War of the Five Kings (Renly, Robb, Joffrey, Balon, Stannis).  Melisandre believed Stannis was the one true king, so used magic to kill Renly, then used Gendry's blood to burn leeches for Robb, Joffrey, and Balon.  Robb died at the Red Wedding; Joffrey died at the Purple Wedding; It would have then made sense for Balon to be killed by his brother BEFORE Stannis died.  This would have had the added benefit of Stannis fully believing in his right to rule and that Melisandre and her god was truly on his side before he tried to siege Winterfell.

 

In other words, I'm not trying to say Melisandre's magic actually CAUSED those 3 to die, just that it would have been a nice motivator for Stannis had the chronology been changed around a bit.

 

Why do you think it doesn't make sense?

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

I think the connection between Melisandre's leeches and the three deaths is rather vague and ambiguous. Robb was killed by Roose Bolton and Walder Frey acting in allegiance with Tywin. Joffrey was killed by Olenna Tyrell and Littlefinger. Balon was killed by Euron. It's unlikely that a leechful of Gendry's blood was responsible (or partially responsible) for any of these (and whether Melisandre herself believed that her magic caused them is open to interpretation). But, given that two of these "usurpers" (and the two most important, at that) died very quickly after the leech ceremony, it's plausible that Stannis would take the news as a fairly significant affirmation of Melisandre's claims.

 

13 minutes ago, Jay said:

This would have had the added benefit of Stannis fully believing in his right to rule and that Melisandre and her god was truly on his side before he tried to siege Winterfell.

 

Stannis' belief in his right to rule was absolute, no matter what! As for his belief in the Lord of Light's favour, I think the close-but-no-cigar outcome of the leech experiment enhances the subsequent story rather than undermining it. Despite the evidence for their validity, there's still a question mark over Melisandre's claims while Balon continues to live, and this makes Stannis' ultimate decision to go full R'hllorist more of a personal choice, and consequently more tragic. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Jason.

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

33 minutes ago, Jay said:

In other words, I'm not trying to say Melisandre's magic actually CAUSED those 3 to die, just that it would have been a nice motivator for Stannis had the chronology been changed around a bit.

 

I somehow overlooked that sentence when writing my last post (unless you edited it in later).

 

I agree that it could be kind of cool to have the three usurpers' deaths rapidly after the three leeches', but, for the reasons I mentioned above, I think the alternative also has its merits, and the issue isn't significant enough to warrant what it would have cost in both money and screen-time, and would have had the detrimental effect of introducing Euron's character a long time before he became integral to any of the main storylines. It's a logistical challenge to construct a season which accommodates adequate storylines for the protagonists (Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jaime, Sam, Theon, Davos, and Brienne -  and, formerly, Ned and Catelyn), and there is very little room for anything which doesn't serve these. A detour to the Iron Islands to depict a regime change which wouldn't significantly interact with these storylines for another two seasons (other than giving Stannis' belief in the Lord of Light an extra boost) is something which the writers evidently decided wasn't worth it, and I'm very much inclined to agree with them.

[Jay 37,374]

Euron being introduced then disappearing for a season would be no different than the dozens of other characters that have done the same (The Blackfish, Jaqen H'ghar, Lancel Lannister, Rickon & Osha, Bran Meera and Hodor, very likely The Hound, etc.)

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

...Benjen.

 

But I didn't say that characters can't or shouldn't spend seasons off-screen. All of the characters that you listed were introduced to participate immediately in a protagonist's storyline. That wouldn't have been the case with a Euron / Kingsmoot detour - at least, not without some major restructuring.

[Jay 37,374]

But it would have prevented

 

Episode 5: Build me a thousand ships!
Episode 6: I need a thousand ships!

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

Here's apparent confirmation of a book storyline which won't be appearing in the show (only the first ten seconds from where the link starts are relevant):

 

 

I say "confirmation" advisedly, given that the last video I posted here showed Joseph Mawle feigning ignorance over any potential return to Game of Thrones, but I tend to believe this.

[Jay 37,374]

What storyline? (I don't have time to watch a video)

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

Lady Stoneheart.

[crumbs 14,319]

I don't consider that confirmation at all. He's not involved in the show yet knows

Spoiler

 

this storyline is cut? He's just repeating the studio line that everyone else has since Catelyn died. Interestingly, Fairley used the same trick answer on this subject as Harrington did this year. "Jon Snow is dead." "Lady Catelyn is dead."

 

Granted I'm not holding my breath it will happen at this point, but all the storylines are finally aligning in that exact direction, as if the show took a 2 season detour while other storylines caught up. We've got Brienne and Pod heading back to the Riverlands, Jamie heading to Riverrun, Walder Frey re-entering the picture by sending his sons/nephews (?) into the wilderness, and the Brotherhood Without Banners name dropped as well.

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

4 minutes ago, crumbs said:

He's not involved in the show...

 

I took that to mean that he's not part of the writing team any more, not necessarily that he's out of the loop. Perhaps he is, though.

 

Clearly something's going to go down in that neck of the woods, but maybe with different players.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I know, but I couldnt be arsed to correct myself. Thankfully you can always be trusted to do so.

I've got to admit I appreciate Jason's clarification. It's been a while since I saw those early GoT episodes.

Couldn't remember those specifics at all and was wondering about them. So thanks, Jason!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh God, don't encourage him!

[Quintus 5,399]

Watched episode 2 of the new season and it's funny to me that a show which has made a living out of massively unexpected character killings was immediately more predictable than any other show ever when Jon Snow suddenly returned to life. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah there was never any doubt about that IMO.

Actually this far that whole cliffhanger seems to have been slightly pointless.

[Jay 37,374]

Yup it was a bad idea to "kill" him in one season finale planning to resurrect him later; As soon as the actor showed up to work between seasons the jig was up

 

Would have made more sense for his sudden sit-up and breath be the final shot of last season instead of his "death"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I wonder, even if Martin would have kept Jon dead (which might be the case though I doubt it) would the showrunners have followed him if the novel had come out before the new season?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Maybe they wanted to forestall the resurrection in the hopes Martin would finish his book before season six. Jon's resurrection on the show is kind of a book spoiler.

[Jay 37,374]

The show writers aren't just inventing everything happening this season out of the blue; It's all based on Book 6's outline.

GRRM isn't spending years fleshing out the plot of that book; The show runners know everything that will happen in it, and GRRM is just toiling away on the prose of it all.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Procrastinating bastard.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who cares, we have the show!

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

As far as the Jon Snow resurrection goes, I was certainly expecting it to be much less straightforward. In that sense, the outcome actually was pretty unpredictable, being perfectly ordinary. In any case, unpredictability isn't a necessary attribute. What is more worrying is that, so far, his murder and revival don't seem to have had a profound effect on Jon's character or personality, or on the story. He's a bit more ruthless and selfish, and got out of the Night's Watch without being branded a deserter, but, after the show playing such a bold move as to end the last season with his death (inviting almost a year's worth of speculation as to what would happen next), this seems like rather a measly pay-off. Maybe later developments will help justify it. I certainly expect something more substantial from the book, especially given that George R.R. Martin said that the one thing he would do differently if he were the author of The Lord of the Rings would be to have Gandalf stay dead.

 

3 hours ago, Jay said:

GRRM isn't spending years fleshing out the plot of that book; The show runners know everything that will happen in it...

 

I'm not sure about either of those things. How much detail did Martin give Benioff and Weiss about what he had planned for The Winds of Winter? I think they might be making up quite a lot of what we're seeing now.

[Quintus 5,399]

Episode 3 watched and this 'High Sparrow' subplot with Jonathan Pryce is really bloody annoying and nonsensical. Joffrey would have put his head on a stick and King Robert before him would have removed the head himself, but suddenly this guy in a sack shows up in town humbly wielding an almighty and unquestionable power and it's as if the great line of Kings of the Seven Kingdoms never even existed, like the throne is hilariously worthless whenever those pesky sparrows are in town. It's complete bullshit and for me it is simply broken storytelling. I don't care that the book probably does a better job at making it seem convincing. Like Qarth before it they should have ripped this section out of the tv adaptation. 

[crumbs 14,319]

The problem is they've been forced to milk the Sparrow storyline into a 2-3 season arc (I don't see it ending anytime soon). And Jonathan Pryce does a brilliant job portraying a smug, deceitful, hypocritical bastard... but there's only so much of these annoying characters you can endure before you want to stop watching them. A compliment to his performance, though.

 

Considering the books haven't even gone this far (I believe the KL storyline in the books is stuck back where the show ended last season?), the writers probably realised they had nowhere to go if they wrapped up this storyline. It's probably a delaying tactic until Dany lands with her army, maybe at the end of season 7?

[Wojo 2,453]

The Sparrow storyline gives Cersei something to do with her brother away on business. It also shows how she thinks she can manipulate others to do her bidding as long as she doesn't have to play by the same rules. Whether that is true, well that's...