Intrada Will Release Poledouris' Conan The Barbarian and Conan The Destroyer

[Ollie 1,136]

Doug Fake posted this at Intrada today.

I'm working on both scores at the same time but CONAN THE BARBARIAN will hit before DESTROYER. Big surprise. If there's any one thing that stands out it's just the sheer power and energy captured in these originals that just raises the few hairs I have left on the back of my neck!

I recall talking at length to Basil about the first score while we were mastering our very first release, which was RED DAWN. One of the things he stated was how disappointed he was that the film ended up being mixed just for mono presentations. He said one reel had been mixed in Dolby surround for testing and the producers decided not to incur the extra costs. Basil was really frustrated because he said he'd managed to capture such ferocious "over the top" performances on the multi-channel session masters and couldn't understand why the film makers would reduce it all down into a mono film soundtrack.

The two-track mixes were used for the record versions (and the later Varese CDs) and everyone, including Basil, pointed out those actual original 24-track session masters were lost for ever. So it was a goosebump moment to find virtually everything alive and well in those Universal vaults.

Since these are the unedited masters being heard for the first time, we're having a blast finding out all sorts of cool stuff: Basil's very first take of the famous CONAN THE BARBARIAN main title ("Anvil Of Crom") has those familiar French horns starting out not low as they always have done BUT way up an octave, screaming in the upper register! He obviously didn't like the high melody line and asked them to drop it an octave. And there's a complete bridge section recorded for the sequence after the "Funeral Pyre" scenes that has never been heard before, not even in the re-recording.

Some of the neatest things are finding out how much power Basil got out of his percussion by frequently having the tympani and bass drums try several different strokes and volume levels, making adjustments right there on the podium to get just the sound he wanted. Much of the energy comes from working right there and literally ad-libbing specific passages, then adding other percussion sounds and getting that unique Conan sound.

I honestly can't think of many film scores where the raw power and intensity comes from players who just "go for it". THE WIND AND THE LION, recorded in Germany, comes to mind. Anyway, as Roger pointed out, when we were doing JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS, Bruce Broughton and engineer Mike Ross pointed out just how raw energy and vitality would trump clinically accurate playing on epic scores like this. I know in my heart that's what Basil was looking for during his Conan sessions. Captured on 24-tracks spread out over two inch wide tape, I can hear those players giving Basil just what he wanted. And we're really excited about bringing it all to you.

--Doug

http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4297&start=30

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Bring it on!

[Demondm810 413]

Can't. Freaking. Wait.

[Trent B 340]

So it seems the Intrada release will sort of make the Tadlow one a bit obsolete, considering it will have a cue that no one has ever heard before, and was not present on Tadlow's release.

[Jacob 0]

Excellent news.

I think I'll have to get Barbarian. While the rerecording is great, I agree with Mark that it doesn't quite fill the shoes of the original.

Probably just because the latter is what I fell in love with, even if the former is perhaps superior in every objective way.

I'm not familiar with Destroyer, so I'll play the wait and see game there.

[Matt C 468]

So it seems the Intrada release will sort of make the Tadlow one a bit obsolete, considering it will have a cue that no one has ever heard before, and was not present on Tadlow's release.

Eh. One new cue doesn't matter to me. If I like it, I can DL it or rip it.

But as good sounding the Intrada releases will be, they can't fix performance flubs and players unused to sight-reading. If Fake and Feigelson pull a great CD from the original masters that doesn't have those flubs, I'll give credit where it's due.

[Joe Brausam 218]

Honestly - the most exciting thing for me is the alternate main title with the horns in their upper register, that must sound bad-ass. Can't wait!

[Melange 448]

I'm working on both scores at the same time but CONAN THE BARBARIAN will hit before DESTROYER. Big surprise.

If there's any one thing that stands out it's just the sheer power and energy captured in these originals that just raises the few hairs I have left on the back of my neck!

Croooooom! Can't wait!

Not sure about Destroyer though. I have the original CD but probably last listened to it over 7 years ago, if honest.

It has nice moments, but it's one soundtrack where I seem to have allowed how 'awful' that film was,to tarnish it a tad.

when we were doing JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS, Bruce Broughton and engineer Mike Ross......

I love that CD, it's one in my collection that I listen to quite a lot.

TALOS!

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

So it seems the Intrada release will sort of make the Tadlow one a bit obsolete, considering it will have a cue that no one has ever heard before, and was not present on Tadlow's release.

Tadlow has more tracks not recorded for the film so if you want all, you must have the two, none obsolete.

Unless james fitzpatrick records the Intrada's exclusive track as bonus track for destroyer.

I would do it, i would like my re-recording to be truly complete

[Wojo 2,456]

That'd be nice. After all, the recorded a Destroyer track for their Barbarian album. Once the second re-recording album arrives, we can swap tracks.

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

anyone wants to suggest it to fitzpatrick on the fsm forums or something?

[Brónach 1,306]

As things are, we going to be able to inject the Intrada tracks in the Tadlow and the Tadlow tracks in the Intrada, so we have two recordings "complete recordings" and you can listen to the one you prefer. But yes, having the new recording be truy complete on its own would be cool.

[Jay 39,429]

So, Doug,

Would you be able to then confirm that Morricone was never hired and never did anything?

In situations like this, there is always a point where fact and myth merge, just as John Ford expressed in the finale to his THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE. The film was very much a product of John Milius' own visions (as director and co-writer) and his interest in Basil's music was already established. I do know from talking with Basil that he openly admitted his being "the Conan composer" was by no means a sure thing for awhile. Morricone was indeed under consideration. I never heard about anything approaching the signing point, however.

Nick Redman, an authority on John Milius and a friend of Basil's, is writing our liner notes. If there are interesting nuggets to be had from Milius regarding the situation, Nick will probably unearth them. But it's entirely possible that Morricone was merely considered for the project and nothing more. Still, it's fun to see the (sort of) "third" Conan movie getting scored by that same Morricone.

--Doug

Hi Doug,

this is FANTASTIC news, I'm so excited! Does the 24-track master mean that you could release CONAN as a Hybrid SACD/CD version as well? I'd really love the idea & would be happy to pay a premium for the better sound quality... I remember Varese doing some of their releases as hybrid SACD/CDs (Star Trek Nemesis, Timeline and Great Train Robbery) and CONAN is certainly a title that will sell quite well to justify the additional investment...

Anyway, I'm VERY MUCH looking forward to this,

thanks,

Uwe

I must admit the multi-channel CD around our parts is pretty much a dead animal. I realize my view comes from just our narrow little corner of the movie music world but - at least for Intrada - the complaints about the audio quality of Varese's THE GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY far outweighed any compliments it received. I don't recall any major feedback on TIMELINE but during that era we sure got a lot of comments from customers saying they preferred to listen to music in a two-channel stereo format rather than anything multi-channeled. We recorded JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS in the Genex 5.1 format (as well as a live two-track format) with the plans to do a multi-channel release and found very limited interest at the time. The economics vs. the potentially dismal sales prospects made our decision process simple. I'm just not convinced there's an audience willing to support the extreme finances of mixing, mastering and manufacturing a multi-channel disc for either of the two CONAN scores. I'm guessing people would prefer the efforts be made to produce the best possible stereo CD, then if the expenses warrant it, include alternate takes, perhaps a rehearsal of the main title or some of the battle music, maybe some mixes without the chorus and so forth instead. But keep in mind... I don't know. I just work here.

--Doug

http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4297&start=30

[Jay 39,429]

Doug is asking for feedback concerning the way 3 cues are assembled on the Intrada forums.

Here's an important item I'm literally just now working with... and you're welcome to chime in with your preferences. You may not get what you want, but maybe it'll help me make my choice. Please stick to the topic as I'm really curious about your responses to my question.

The first two cues in CONAN THE BARBARIAN are segued together in the movie, then the next three are combined into one giant piece in the picture as well. Poledouris dropped his opening prologue from the U.S. album and started right off with the "Anvil Of Crom". We'll include the opening prologue before the credits because it sounds so cool going from bass drum hits and light percussion suddenly to massive tympani and orchestra for the titles... but it's the next three cues that I'm curious about. Yes, we're including them, of course. But... as one large sequence as heard in the film - and intended by Poledouris - or as three separate cues like the album - and intended by Poledouris. (This is not a contradiction, by the way.)

Poledouris literally composed the segues (or crossfades) right into "Gift Of Fury", "Riders Of Doom" and "Wheel Of Pain" by ensuring the closing bars of each matched the opening bars of the following and whatnot. In the film it works beautifully and if assembled as such on the album for the first time it'll have a powerful effect. It was designed to work that way so it's not just good fortune.

However... Poledouris wanted to keep each of these parts separate on his album - and he did. And each cue works by itself as well. And, yes, the re-recording retains that sequence.

It's not practical or economically sensible to have all of these cues appear twice on our release, just to play it both ways (though I've thought about it) so...

Do you think you'd prefer the film assembly (which is quite dramatic when played as one lengthy cue) or the album assembly (which retains a degree of individual clarity not possible with the film assembly). Remember, Poledouris wanted it both ways... and got what he wanted with a movie and a record. We have to make a choice.

--Doug

Cast your vote by going to the thread:

http://www.intrada.n....php?f=4&t=4308

Personally, I think they should be combined on the new release. Especially since the clean endings/openings are available on the OST for those who REALLY prefer them separated.

[Joe Brausam 218]

I'd prefer them all together as well, it would be nice to experience the music in a (slightly) new way.

[Doo_liss 6,423]

Seperated

[Hlao-roo 389]

Separate but equal.

[ManofDestiny 82]

Film mix first, and separately as bonus cue.

[Doo_liss 6,423]

Film mix first, and separately as bonus cue.

They said they will not be doing that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Separated

[scallenger 558]

I think separated would be best. If you want it combined, anyone can easily do that with their own editor. I think even Winamp can do it automatically. But getting a clean ending from another source is a lot more work to "fix" for those who don't want it all in one long track.

By the way for some reason I cannot seem to register for an account to cast my vote, so could someone relay the above message for me there so another voice can be heard before it is finalized?

[Incanus 5,801]

I would vote separate tracks. They play well one after the other even with the normal gap between tracks and those who truly wish to tinker with the music can easily combine them.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Personally, I think they should be combined on the new release. Especially since the clean endings/openings are available on the OST for those who REALLY prefer them separated.

Why? These are very obviously seperate pieces of music. Combining them would seem false, Like on the Star Wars SE's.

[Incanus 5,801]

Personally, I think they should be combined on the new release. Especially since the clean endings/openings are available on the OST for those who REALLY prefer them separated.

Why? These are very obviously seperate pieces of music. Combining them would seem false, Like on the Star Wars SE's.

It really depends on a score. I like the 14 minute Battle of the Hoth from ESB as a one long epic suite for the long sequence but on the other hand I would not like to see the the music from the beginning of Temple of Doom to be combined into one 15 minute long track from the club sequence up to the arrival to India even though the music is written so as to seque from scene to the next.

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

I dont know...

If it segues nicely and was composed that way, why no?

And we have the sepparate cues on the album and re-recording.

But always one can make his own edit with the sepparate cues...

[Incanus 5,801]

I dont know...

If it segues nicely and was composed that way, why no?

And we have the separate cues on the album and re-recording.

But always one can make his own edit with the sepparate cues...

If you were forced to cull separate tracks from previous releases I don't think the sound quality of the OST or the Varese CD would match the upcoming one. It would feel a bit disjointed perhaps if you were to combine the old with the new in creating your own version just to hear the tracks separated.

[fommes 155]

Combined, no question about it. For the same reason as you combine cues on your Indiana Jones and Star Wars edits - they're composed to flow that way. It's only after the fact that Poledouris separated them for the album.

[crocodile 8,520]

Missed that piece of news. Great!

Only one question now: is Tadlow's re-recording worth getting? Now that they are about to release this, I mean...

Karol

[Brónach 1,306]

Separated.

Then again, as Poledouris liked it both ways and I can see why, I'm not sure.

But it's easier to get the separated cues to sound combined than the opposite. Maybe they can put them separated but without the silence gap between them, if you know what I mean. I mean, even if there's a silence gap that can be solved with a good music player.

Plus isn't this release supoosed to sound better than the previous one? I don't even have the Varese CD if I want them separated, and I like my lossless.

[Hlao-roo 389]

It's like Siamese twins. Rather than leaving them together, you would strive to separate them, giving them an opportunity to live and breath on their own as individual entities.

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

I dont know...

If it segues nicely and was composed that way, why no?

And we have the separate cues on the album and re-recording.

But always one can make his own edit with the sepparate cues...

If you were forced to cull separate tracks from previous releases I don't think the sound quality of the OST or the Varese CD would match the upcoming one. It would feel a bit disjointed perhaps if you were to combine the old with the new in creating your own version just to hear the tracks separated.

i meant "But always one can make his own edit with the sepparate cues" (if the cues are provided sepparate in the intrada version)

So in the end probably the best option is sepparate.

[Jonesy 55]

I don't find any difference between combined and separated tracks, but I would prefer separated tracks.

[Ollie 1,136]

Missed that piece of news. Great!

Only one question now: is Tadlow's re-recording worth getting? Now that they are about to release this, I mean...

Karol

If you can afford to, yes.

[shockwave 8]

As quoted from one of my favorite groups from the 90's: The Offspring - "Keep Em Separated."

[Henry B 51]

Only one question now: is Tadlow's re-recording worth getting? Now that they are about to release this, I mean...

Yeah, definitely, for the score as written. There's lots of percussion missing from the original because it wasn't in the orchestra's inventory, as well as some difficult wind passages that were taceted (not played). "Anvil of Crom" is a revelation. Plus, the awkward string mistake in "Recovery" is gone.

But I don't think anything beats the enthusiasm and power of the original. Very excited for it.

[Matt C 468]

Yeah, definitely, for the score as written. There's lots of percussion missing from the original because it wasn't in the orchestra's inventory, as well as some difficult wind passages that were taceted (not played). "Anvil of Crom" is a revelation. Plus, the awkward string mistake in "Recovery" is gone.

But I don't think anything beats the enthusiasm and power of the original. Very excited for it.

Enthusiasm, yes. Power? Ehh, I could tell with the opening percussion on "Prologue" that the players aren't used to precise downbeats and timing. Like I've said before, there's more than enough playing flubs that draw me out of the listening experience. The re-recording can't quite capture that rawness the original orchestra nailed, but everything else is better.

But if you guys want one or both, then more power to you.

[Hlao-roo 389]

But if you guys want one or both, then more power to you.

And enthusiasm.

[Jay 39,429]

Lots of fabulous responses here... and enough questions to fill those oceans that drank Atlantis! Here're a few answers that may satisfy.

The original MCA albums to both movies are true OSTs. They're not re-recordings. Both albums used cues from the actual soundtrack sessions, selected by Poledouris and his engineers as representative of the highlights and mixed down for release. Since we have the actual 24-track session elements, we're able to newly remix everything and allow solo lines and other colors to exhibit more clarity than possible back in the two-track stereo mixes made in '82 and '84 respectively.

Both albums used those original two-track mixes. The Varese CD to CONAN THE BARBARIAN was expanded solely because Poledouris had retained some additional cues on his own 1/4" 15 ips copy. Having been scored in Italy, there were no AFM restrictions on inclusion of the extra cues on a CD. But that expansion was limited to the handful of extra cues Poledouris retained, and the audio was necessarily limited to the two-track mixes.

We have a significant amount of alternate and rehearsal material, some interesting, some not. What makes portions interesting are the ones such as the main titles (Anvil Of Crom), where Poledouris starts with his French horns up an octave, then discards the idea after the first take. Hearing stuff like that from gestation into what we know and love is actually quite exhilarating. Listening to him develop the scraping sound of the tam tams or whatever for later takes of his "Wheel Of Pain" sequence is also of significance. Much of this score is a progression not of literal notes played as written but of creating sounds, percussion colors and whatnot right there as composer and musicians combine to create genuine primal energy, all fortunately while those 2" tape reels are spinning. (And how wonderful all those reels survived over the decades intact!)

Anyway, whether including this work-in-progress stuff becomes a matter of economics, of course. These are important film scores - the first one certainly one of the greatest ever - and one could easily end up with a massive box set chronicling the history of this incredible music, from the rehearsals and first takes to the tweaks and changes that ultimately created this genuinely powerful music. Maybe I'm a masochist, but for me, hearing Basil ask his bass drum and tympani players to try several different patterns until he gets just what he's looking for is fascinating. But, big surprise, every additional tidbit that might be fun also has licensing and mechanical fees - of course. What would the world be without fees.

Lots of wild info gets tossed around with projects anxiously sought such as this. For the record, Poledouris told me he was excited about the raw energy he got with the recordings, and how crisp the actual sound was. His disappointment came largely from the budgeting that wouldn't allow any multi-channel sound mixes, requiring what he called "rough" two-track mixes for the records and mono mixes for the movies themselves.

I gets lots of emails asking whether I prefer the "originals" or the "re-recording(s)". The quick answer is that both serve a wornderful function. The latter allows one to examine under a microscope years later the printed music as edited and polished, the former allows one to hear the raw emotional power of that same stuff actually being created. For specifics, however, in previously unreleased cues such as the "Pit Fights", I prefer the incredible savagery and piercing brass performances of the original to the clinical playing of the re-recording anyday. And nothing beats that original recording of those pounding percussion rhythms, followed by the unison French horn players literally being unleashed. Nothing. (But that's me.)

Oh, and for those multi-channel CD enthusiasts (which appear to number less than 7), we are most assuredly keeping the separate 24-track session masters intact, should anyone ever convince me that sales of 5.1 CDs would warrant such expenses.

As a post-scriptum, it's certainly exciting to find the new Blu-ray release of CONAN THE BARBARIAN taking advantage of the 5.1 audio at long last. And the music gets favored in the mix, too. Bravo! Basil's legacy is at work!

--Doug

[fommes 155]

I think they should release a 500 dollar Anvil Box with every cough from Basil included! Who wants a clinical, polished CD box set anymore - nothing beats the raw texture of a dirty anvil.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Intrada seem to be rather promote their upcoming release by rather slagging of the work Tadlow has done.

[fommes 155]

Indeed. And though I have no particular affinity for either label, it begins to turn me off from Intrada.

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

Intrada seem to be rather promote their upcoming release by rather slagging of the work Tadlow has done.

I was going to say that over his first comments, but i thought that either it was my badly-translated perception or that i would be crucifixed for saying that.

I'm glad its not just me.

If i was Intrada i would be more polite, specillay when i know that 'my' recording is the prefered for the mayority so sales are a given.

I hope Tadlow does nto enter this war and does the same, if that is so, for both!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

It's nor really necessary.

They are releasing the original recording of Conan, this thing is gonna sell like hotcakes!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

I wonder if we will get Basil's original recording and the older version used in the film for this cue:

[Jay 39,429]

Fantastic feedback fellow music lovers, Conan fans, soundtrack fans... whatever. I appreciate it a lot! Of course, just as Roger suggested to me a couple of nights ago, I'll no doubt be right back where I started. People will want it both ways. And he's right. Us humans are a crazy breed, aren't we?

Some points to keep in mind:

1) We NEVER simply place "2-second" spreads between tracks. NEVER. Did I say NEVER? I'll say it again. NEVER! When we master our albums, we always pay attention to the tempos, moods and pacing of the outgoing tracks as well as the incoming ones. Some massive action cues or long sobering sequences may need several seconds of pause before plunging into the next track. Other times, a long sobering sequence might instead be best followed by little pause and a sudden, immediate "wake up" call. Love themes may need a moment to savor the last lingering chords, short cues may work best with very brief one-second pauses... there is NO "one size fits all" approach here at Intrada. We make music. Other labels may do "global" pauses but we just can't. It's not musical. We started paying attention to pauses or "spreads" back with our first LP 25 years ago... interestingly (or coincidentally) with Poledouris. (Horner loves long pauses so one can absorb what they just heard, Phillips loves quick pauses so things'll keep moving right along.) Anyway, from the beginning we conducted beats during pauses, made tempo indications, tapped our feet, you name it to determine the gaps between tracks... and we still do so to this day. Always have, always will.

2) We won't be including Mako's narration... even as an "extra". He's on the movie. We're doing the music. Besides, to be honest, if I included favorite lines of dialog (besides owing a fortune to Universal) I'd have a 129-minute project. I'm a fan of the entire script.

3) My leaning is to present the three cues in question as three separate cues in the main program. I'm tempted to assemble them into one sequence as an extra on CD 2 so we have it both ways... if it's financially feasible. But separate tracks will probably trump crossfading them together, otherwise. Probably. Not yet positive.

I know some people would love lots of extras. We'll do what we can but offering the cues both assembled as in the movie and separated as on the LP, plus alternates, changes made during the sessions, versions with and without chorus and so forth just isn't possible. Remember, this is a long score and requires a second CD even without any extras. And... big surprise, though they may seem like mere bonuses, we actually pay for them. I'd like to keep this set affordable for people.

We're working as quickly as we can on this. Just remember that we're working on a lot of projects simultaneously so our plates are really full. I know I've said this before, but we wouldn't have it any other way around here. We love this stuff.

--Doug

By the way, Mark (my webhamster) mentioned there may be some muddled communications regarding the Prologue and Anvil Of Crom. Yes, we are including the Prologue, segueing into the Anvil Of Crom just as Poledouris intended. It was the opening narration by Mako that I was mentioning would not be included.

Whether we include that narration as an extra (perhaps with the film assemblies of the cues discussed earlier) is still under consultation around here. But worry not: you will get all that wonderful percussion for the very first scene that so excitingly segues into the familiar credit music.

And remember: trust not man nor woman nor beast. This... (holding up shiny CD)... this you can trust.

--Doug

[Jay 39,429]

Update from Roger:

The master is done, we're just waiting for it to go through the UMG machine. Which is a long process, so make yourself comfortable. We made some amazing discoveries going through the masters. Clearly Basil took a long time with the orchestra to get the exact sound he wanted and did not relent until he had it, so there were a lot of takes. One sound he abandoned early on was the main title, which originally had the theme on trumpets. Amazing sound, but he dropped it after the first take and switch to horns. We'll include this first take. Just a hint of what's to come!

Roger

[Incanus 5,801]

It will certainly be interesting to hear the original film score and what Intrada has unearthed from the sessions. I like the re-recording a lot but let's see what the original sounds on this new release.

[Wojo 2,456]

I wonder how many Tadlow albums will end up cheap on the used market after Intrada debuts their version.

[lonzoe 19]

Update from Roger:

The master is done, we're just waiting for it to go through the UMG machine. Which is a long process, so make yourself comfortable. We made some amazing discoveries going through the masters. Clearly Basil took a long time with the orchestra to get the exact sound he wanted and did not relent until he had it, so there were a lot of takes. One sound he abandoned early on was the main title, which originally had the theme on trumpets. Amazing sound, but he dropped it after the first take and switch to horns. We'll include this first take. Just a hint of what's to come!

Roger

Been wondering what's going on with this. I guess this will come out sometime during the holiday season.

[Incanus 5,801]

I wonder how many Tadlow albums will end up cheap on the used market after Intrada debuts their version.

I hope people appreciate the re-recordings as a fresh interpretations of the music and no something to hold on to while waiting for the original tracks to be released.