Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)

[Barnald 365]

The version in 'Girion, Lord of Dale' almost certainly scores that scene from the last trailer of Thorin looking at the patchwork showing the line of Durin, which is the first time it's heard. I've previously referred to it as 'Thorin's Destiny' or 'Erebor Reclaimed'. I think Faleel likes 'A Kingdom Reclaimed'.

[Faleel 5,348]

Most of the big FOTR Ring theme statements are tracked anyway.

I am aware that you are our "tracking" expert on this stuff so could you mention a few. Or should I just go into the Conspiracy Unmasked thread instead?

Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe.

A Conspiracy Unmasked.

[Doug Adams 494]

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.

Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.

[Incanus 5,714]

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.

Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.

Yes I heard the relation to other dwarf themes immediately when I first heard it. As you say there is a very cumulative effect in it.

Doug can you give us (without breaking NDAs) small pointers on what should be we listening to beyond melodic lines to figure out musical relatives and continuations?

[Doug Adams 494]

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.

Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.

Yes I heard the relation to other dwarf themes immediately when I first heard it. As you say there is a very cumulative effect in it.

Doug can you give us (without breaking NDAs) small pointers on what should be we listening to beyond melodic lines to figure out musical relatives and continuations?

That actually gets pretty deep into spoiler territory I'm afraid. In fact, I think some of these connections won't be fully exploited until film three.

I can, however, mention that the Beorn theme is more about the accompanying figures below than the melodic line above. I know this isn't a connection per se, but it's a good example of a figure that isn't entirely clear without a bit of "deep listening."

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.

Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.

Wow, very interesting, thanks Doug!

See, I'm not musically trained what-soever, so essentially all I really have to go by is melody a lot of times, cause that's the most easily recognizable thing to a "layperson" like me. That's cool that the Durin theme is built off of the Thorin theme (or perhaps, it makes more sense to say Thorin's theme is a deconstructed version of the Durin theme?). Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

[Doug Adams 494]

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.

Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

NDAs, man! NDAs!

Nope.

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.

Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.

Wow, very interesting, thanks Doug!

See, I'm not musically trained what-soever, so essentially all I really have to go by is melody a lot of times, cause that's the most easily recognizable thing to a "layperson" like me. That's cool that the Durin theme is built off of the Thorin theme (or perhaps, it makes more sense to say Thorin's theme is a deconstructed version of the Durin theme?). Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

[Faleel 5,348]

NDA's and $#&@

[Jay 37,364]

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

Interesting. It's so interesting that Shore would introduce a theme there, intend it to repeat at the end of the movie when the Eagles rescue the company, and not be used anywhere else, including the sequel score. I wonder what his intentions were for that theme....

Likewise, the studios logos theme in DOS doesn't seem to appear anywhere else at all....

[Barnald 365]

But what if it's an 'Erebor Reclaimed' theme Jason?

[Jay 37,364]

What?

[Doug Adams 494]

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

Interesting. It's so interesting that Shore would introduce a theme there, intend it to repeat at the end of the movie when the Eagles rescue the company, and not be used anywhere else, including the sequel score. I wonder what his intentions were for that theme....

Likewise, the studios logos theme in DOS doesn't seem to appear anywhere else at all....

Well, some of us still consider the album version to be the canon version.

But what if it's an 'Erebor Reclaimed' theme Jason?

We actually do have a specific name/identity for it, but you'll have to wait for the liners to see it.

[Faleel 5,348]

What?

This:

Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here

Why would a theme for the nigh Erebor Reclaimed be played that early in the story?

[Barnald 365]

What?

This new Dwarven theme. We don't yet know what it represents exactly.

[Doug Adams 494]

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

Interesting. It's so interesting that Shore would introduce a theme there, intend it to repeat at the end of the movie when the Eagles rescue the company, and not be used anywhere else, including the sequel score. I wonder what his intentions were for that theme....

Likewise, the studios logos theme in DOS doesn't seem to appear anywhere else at all....

Well, some of us still consider the album version to be the canon version.

But what if it's an 'Erebor Reclaimed' theme Jason?

We actually do have a specific name/identity for it, but you'll have to wait for the liners to see it.

... Well, actually, you may see a *little* sooner than that. (He said, portentously.)

[Incanus 5,714]

But what if it's an 'Erebor Reclaimed' theme Jason?

We actually do have a specific name/identity for it, but you'll have to wait for the liners to see it.

I can't wait to read the liners (and reading/exploring the interactive score)!

Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here

Why would a theme for the nigh Erebor Reclaimed be played that early in the story?

I think the evocations of the music of Moria in An Ancient Enemy were perfect for the flashback. Not only for the location of Moria itself but for the return of the very beginnings of the dwarven musical ideas the whole saga. A nice way to bring it back to the story.

Same goes for the final tracks of the DoS score where shades of the fierce dwarvish music of the Balrog sequences returns.

[Jay 37,364]

What?

This:

Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here

Why would a theme for the nigh Erebor Reclaimed be played that early in the story?

Wha? I never once claimed it was a theme for Erebor Reclaimed! I already posted that it's a theme for the line of Durin...

What?

This new Dwarven theme. We don't yet know what it represents exactly.

We don't? I already said what it represents, and Doug's post more or less confirmed it.

Why would I be making something like this up?

[Jay 37,364]

Is Doug's post in reply to mine not confirmation enough?

[Barnald 365]

Are you privy to something we're not?

EDIT: Not really, since Doug says we'll find out what theme it is in the liner notes (or sooner).

[Incanus 5,714]

Sorry that I deleted my post but you answered it in your above post Jason. But obviously you have some inside information on this as well.

[KK 3,307]

Are you privy to something we're not?

EDIT: Not really, since Doug says we'll find out what theme it is in the liner notes (or sooner).

Jason has some inside information no doubt, but the way Doug builds off his comments more or less confirms that he's right.

[Incanus 5,714]

Are you privy to something we're not?

EDIT: Not really, since Doug says we'll find out what theme it is in the liner notes (or sooner).

Jason has some inside information no doubt, but the way Doug builds off his comments more or less confirms that he's right.

Yes yes yes that is all clear. We want more information now! More revelations and juicy tidbits! We live for these small rumours and hints on this MB!

[Jay 37,364]

Anyways, does anybody else think the melody from 0:41-0:48 of The Quest for Erebor sounds like Smaug's theme?

[Incanus 5,714]

Anyways, does anybody else think the melody from 0:41-0:48 of The Quest for Erebor sounds like Smaug's theme?

Well I have to say that connection didn't cross my mind when I listened to it. So no. But sounds vaguely familiar. Obviously I need to listen to this score a few more times!

[Barnald 365]

Anyways, does anybody else think the melody from 0:41-0:48 of The Quest for Erebor sounds like Smaug's theme?

Nice changing of the conversation there...

[Incanus 5,714]

Anyways, does anybody else think the melody from 0:41-0:48 of The Quest for Erebor sounds like Smaug's theme?

Nice changing of the conversation there...

Well it was apparent we had exhausted that avenue of discussion right there.

[Jay 37,364]

I also BELIEVE I hear a theme for Thranduil, it opens "The Woodland Realm", and also is heard again at 1:45 I think. The only problem is, this melody is VERY similar to the melody heard in AUJ at 2:14 of A Troll-hoard, and I can't see what the connection to Thranduil would be there (in the film it plays over the shot of Sting on the ground)

[ChrisAfonso 186]

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

So you're really saying this similarity is not intentional? Seems kind of striking to me.

Looking forward to the liner notes, apart from specialty label releases it's rare to get that level of insight delivered right with the music

[Incanus 5,714]

I also BELIEVE I hear a theme for Thranduil, it opens "The Woodland Realm", and also is heard again at 1:45 I think. The only problem is, this melody is VERY similar to the melody heard in AUJ at 2:14 of A Troll-hoard, and I can't see what the connection to Thranduil would be there (in the film it plays over the shot of Sting on the ground)

Could it be that it is the theme which is related to Thorin's pride or a fragment of it? I would surmise the dwarves are captured and taken before Thranduil when this track plays.

[Jay 37,364]

Yea, unfortunately the melody I'm talking about in AUJ crops up in a ton of places on the OST, and I have no idea what the connection between all these scenes would be:

My Dear Frodo 6:29-7:00

My Dear Frodo 7:22-7:47

A Troll-hoard 0:44-0:56

A Troll-hoard 1:50-2:03

A Troll-hoard 2:14-2:19

Riddles in the Dark 3:48-4:00

Brass Buttons 4:40-4:58

And some say "Bilbo's Burglar Theme" (Roast Mutton 4:08-4:22) is the same melody as well....

[Incanus 5,714]

Yea, unfortunately the melody I'm talking about in AUJ crops up in a ton of places on the OST, and I have no idea what the connection between all these scenes would be:

My Dear Frodo 6:29-7:00

My Dear Frodo 7:22-7:47

A Troll-hoard 0:44-0:56

A Troll-hoard 1:50-2:03

A Troll-hoard 2:14-2:19

Riddles in the Dark 3:48-4:00

Brass Buttons 4:40-4:58

And some say "Bilbo's Burglar Theme" (Roast Mutton 4:08-4:22) is the same melody as well....

Actually I would say the My Dear Frodo and A Troll-hoard renditions are one theme (Thorin's pride) and Riddles in the Dark and Brass Buttons represent another one (Burglar, Weakness and Redemption or whatever) even though they sound so close.

Thorin's Pride represents the dwarven prince's pride and on the other hand his burning grudges and yearning for the lost glory and wealth of his birthright of Erebor. It is an obsession that drives him. Even the treasure of the Trolls is a painful reminder of the lost gold of the dwarf kingdom to him.

[Jay 37,364]

What would Thorin's pride have to do with a shot of Sting on the ground, though?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Anyways, does anybody else think the melody from 0:41-0:48 of The Quest for Erebor sounds like Smaug's theme?

Well I have to say that connection didn't cross my mind when I listened to it. So no. But sounds vaguely familiar. Obviously I need to listen to this score a few more times!

It has a slight connection with Smaug's downward motif, yes. But it's also exactly the final quarter of the "Durin"(?) theme:

[Jay 37,364]

Interesting!

[Incanus 5,714]

What would Thorin's pride have to do with a shot of Sting on the ground, though?

I think that theme is a compressed variant of the Trolls theme to emphasize the unknown danger to the company? But it is difficult to say since to my ears these small themes sound near the same and I can't readily distinguish more disguised variations of them from each other. This is one of the reasons I have procrastinated so terribly with my analysis of the score. I might look like a complete ass when Doug finally reveals all the depths of this music to us.

[Doug Adams 494]

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

So you're really saying this similarity is not intentional? Seems kind of striking to me.

durin.png

Looking forward to the liner notes, apart from specialty label releases it's rare to get that level of insight delivered right with the music

Thank you!

Actually, I guess what I'm saying is what I always say: I'll address this subject later down the line, likely, but right now I'm holding my tongue.

Let the mockery commence!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So does anyone still just listen to these scores, or has it just become a scavenger hunt for you guys?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Listening to music is overrated.

Analyzing it is where it's at.

[Incanus 5,714]

So does anyone still just listen to these scores, or has it just become a scavenger hunt for you guys?

Oh shush! Of course we listen to them, I mean just sit back and listen to them. But I think the fact that they speak both to the heart and the head is part of their great appeal and how Shore is able to convey so much of the subtexts of these stories in his musical connections across these scores. It doesn't take away from their appeal on a purely musical level for me though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sorry, i usually dont have a pen and paper handy when listening to music.

[gkgyver 1,645]

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

So you're really saying this similarity is not intentional? Seems kind of striking to me.

durin.png

Looking forward to the liner notes, apart from specialty label releases it's rare to get that level of insight delivered right with the music

Looks like one is built on the other, with the Durin theme avoiding the nod to the Ring theme, which the AUJ version has.

[Incanus 5,714]

Sorry, i usually dont have a pen and paper handy when listening to music.

Well you are an odd fellow if there ever was one!

[Jay 37,364]

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

So you're really saying this similarity is not intentional? Seems kind of striking to me.

durin.png

Looking forward to the liner notes, apart from specialty label releases it's rare to get that level of insight delivered right with the music

Looks like one is built on the other, with the Durin theme avoiding the nod to the Ring theme, which the AUJ version has.

You're saying the music that plays under the studio logos at the very beginning of AUJ references The History of The Ring?

[gkgyver 1,645]

You're saying the music that plays under the studio logos at the very beginning of AUJ references The History of The Ring?

I don't, Doug did.

[Incanus 5,714]

You're saying the music that plays under the studio logos at the very beginning of AUJ references The History of The Ring?

I don't, Doug did.

Yup! He did! He did say that The History of the Ring theme was there!

[Jay 37,364]

Must be one of those connections not in the melody, but in some other aspect my musically-luddite brain doesn't understand

[gkgyver 1,645]

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

Interesting. It's so interesting that Shore would introduce a theme there, intend it to repeat at the end of the movie when the Eagles rescue the company, and not be used anywhere else, including the sequel score. I wonder what his intentions were for that theme....

Likewise, the studios logos theme in DOS doesn't seem to appear anywhere else at all....

Well, some of us still consider the album version to be the canon version.

But what if it's an 'Erebor Reclaimed' theme Jason?

We actually do have a specific name/identity for it, but you'll have to wait for the liners to see it.

... Well, actually, you may see a *little* sooner than that. (He said, portentously.)

May I guess that it's "In The Shadow Of The Mountain"?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

So does anyone still just listen to these scores, or has it just become a scavenger hunt for you guys?

The first one or two times I just listened to it, letting myself be blown away by several cues (with increasing frequency towards the end). After that I started to notice more and more of the themes and motifs, paying closer attention to the interconnections, while letting myself be blown away some more.

So, yes and yes!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Must be one of those connections not in the melody, but in some other aspect my musically-luddite brain doesn't understand

The sharp tone of a minor chord with a raised fourth (terminology?) resolving into the perfect fifth. If you have the first page of the sheet music for My Dear Frodo ready, it's in bar 3, the F resolving into F#, for example.