Most original pieces of music JW has written

[indy4 155]

I don't mean in terms of JW's own resume like the other similarly titled thread, I mean in terms of all music. I'm trying to prove to a classical music friend that JW is original, and I'm sending her a few YouTube links to listen to. So far I have:

"End Credits" from Memoirs of a Geisha

"Rounds" for Solo Guitar

"Catch Me If You Can"

Sinfonietta for Wind Ensemble (mvmt 1)

Any other suggestions/have I made a grave mistake with one of the earlier ones?

[karelm 2,915]

The flute concerto, violin concerto, horn concerto, cello concerto and film score to images I think are very solid and innovative. I'm sure all are on YouTube but start with images. That will be quite a shock for those only aware of JW from Spielberg movies.

A lot of people will pre judge the music so don't tell them it's JW till after they hear it.

[Marcus 390]

Original as far as personal voice, I think the concert works are where to start, but keep in mind that the early pieces are less assured, stylistically. The Flute Concerto is a rather "young" piece, and his musical voice, though entirely present, lacks the confidence of his maturer works. Two early examples that show what his true style was to become, are "Essay for Strings", and especially the 2nd movement of his Violin Concerto.

To my ears, some of the pieces that let Williams core voice sparkle the most luminously, would be:

-"The Five Sacred Trees" (entire concerto)

-"Elegy for Cello & Orchestra"

-"Cello Concerto" (especially the outer movements)

-"Horn Concerto" (all of it)

-"Treesong" (all of it)

-"On Willows & Birches" (especially "Birches")

-"Hide and Seek" (from "A.I")

-"Fluffy's Harp" (from "HP1")

-"American Journey" (1st movement, and "Arts&Sciences")

-The concert version of "Getting out the Vote" (from "Lincoln")

[Thor 7,651]

I'll say here what I said in the other thread: "The Killing of Marcel" from IMAGES.

It's the ULTIMATE cue to play for those who are critical of Williams' more traditional music.

[Romão 2,276]

The Football Match from Sleepers

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The Conspirators?

[indy4 155]

Thanks everybody! Keep 'em coming!

Original as far as personal voice, I think the concert works are where to start, but keep in mind that the early pieces are less assured, stylistically. The Flute Concerto is a rather "young" piece, and his musical voice, though entirely present, lacks the confidence of his maturer works. Two early examples that show what his true style was to become, are "Essay for Strings", and especially the 2nd movement of his Violin Concerto.

To my ears, some of the pieces that let Williams core voice sparkle the most luminously, would be:

-"The Five Sacred Trees" (entire concerto)

-"Elegy for Cello & Orchestra"

-"Cello Concerto" (especially the outer movements)

-"Horn Concerto" (all of it)

-"Treesong" (all of it)

-"On Willows & Birches" (especially "Birches")

-"Hide and Seek" (from "A.I")

-"Fluffy's Harp" (from "HP1")

-"American Journey" (1st movement, and "Arts&Sciences")

-The concert version of "Getting out the Vote" (from "Lincoln")

Marcus, I'm curious what you think of the pieces I selected in the original post?

[Tom 4,688]

Perhaps not fully original, but deeply engaging and satisfying is the 6 movement suite for cello and orchestra from Memoirs of a Geisha.

To your original question, can your friend give example of what she considers to be original in a positive way? That might help with your list.

[JamieC 13]

Hi gang

This is an excellent subject to consider as it takes us, once more, back to some issues which lie at the heart of the matter.

I mean this in the best way: arguably, nothing is original (in terms of cultural production/art) in the sense that we are all ongoing products of our ongoing cultural reference points and moment in time. Factor into that, too, a sense of historical context in terms of traditions, movements and cycles in creativity and we've got a melting pot of ways to get our creative bearings.

We , as individuals, though are, to some significant degree, original entities and so the very fact that anything we compose ( our every spoken word, as well as the music, postcards, emails, text messages, stories, poems, letters, shopping lists etc. that we write ) is therefore original.

I wonder if the territory that we're actually wandering into here is the issue of 'creative legitimacy' rather than of 'originality'; if, by the use of the term legitimacy we mean a creative act that is somehow unhampered by 'commercial' requirements.

Pushing at the door of this line of thought even further might it be even more correct to acknowledge that what we're really thinking about and discussing is the issue of what could be considered anomalous work in relation to the work of a creative that is most familiar to most people. Certainly, JW's excellent score for Images is a steadfast case in point.

Who knew that the JWFan's forum could be such a great place for such philosophical ramblings ?

JC

* When we say 'original' are we striving to really try and define what is most affecting and expressive in a creative work ? Ah...the inadequacy of words and the supreme adequacy of music

[A24 4,367]

Isn't Williams' voice unique?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

I will pare down Marcus' list to:

-"Horn Concerto" (all of it)

[Marcus 390]

@Indy4:

I think your original selections are all terrific works of music.

The Sinfonietta for winds is not a mature work, though. A lot of great wind writing, and plenty of "Williams-isms", but still very searching as far as idiom. And not a lot of the warm expressivity of his later concert works. "Rounds" is much better, and much, much more confident. CMIYC and MoaG are both fantastic, but they are sort of "niche" scores; entirely Williams, yet through the prisms of other idioms. Therefore, they might not be the most emblematic of the Williams "core", even though every bar of them rings 100% with his voice.

As far as originality as a concept is concerned, I think what we really mean is "idiosyncratic", "personal" and perhaps "unmistakable".

I personally don't believe in originality in the sense of "being of its own origin"/"having no source".

All art, as all people, has sources.

[Quintus 5,399]

Not sure I completely understand the thread's meaning but the amazing The Shark Cage Fugue always sounded like a highly original piece to me, along with his terrific Scherzo For Motorcycle and Orchestra .

[Hlao-roo 389]

I don't mean in terms of JW's own resume like the other similarly titled thread, I mean in terms of all music. I'm trying to prove to a classical music friend that JW is original, and I'm sending her a few YouTube links to listen to. So far I have:

"End Credits" from Memoirs of a Geisha

"Rounds" for Solo Guitar

"Catch Me If You Can"

Sinfonietta for Wind Ensemble (mvmt 1)

Any other suggestions/have I made a grave mistake with one of the earlier ones?

Just wondering: are there film composers that she believes are original?

[Romão 2,276]

Not sure I completely understand the thread's meaning but the amazing The Shark Cage Fugue always sounded like a highly original piece to me, along with his terrific Scherzo For Motorcycle and Orchestra .

Great call on the Scherzo

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Soundings and the Main Titles from The Missouri Breaks come to mind. The first one seems to be Williams' love letter to Alex North, but still very much his own. I'd say it's one of his most original pieces period.

Also, I was thinking the second half of Friends and Enemies but might seem a bit of a stretch. That guitar stuff is definetly very original, but for Williams. For other composers I wouldn't be so sure.

[indy4 155]

Perhaps not fully original, but deeply engaging and satisfying is the 6 movement suite for cello and orchestra from Memoirs of a Geisha.

To your original question, can your friend give example of what she considers to be original in a positive way? That might help with your list.

Well after I pressed her she gave me Alban Berg as a composer she respected, so I did some research and found 2 examples of Berg stealing from other composers

@Indy4:

I think your original selections are all terrific works of music.

The Sinfonietta for winds is not a mature work, though. A lot of great wind writing, and plenty of "Williams-isms", but still very searching as far as idiom. And not a lot of the warm expressivity of his later concert works. "Rounds" is much better, and much, much more confident. CMIYC and MoaG are both fantastic, but they are sort of "niche" scores; entirely Williams, yet through the prisms of other idioms. Therefore, they might not be the most emblematic of the Williams "core", even though every bar of them rings 100% with his voice.

Always great to hear your opinions on the matter, Marcus. Thanks!

Just wondering: are there film composers that she believes are original?

I didn't ask her, tbh I don't know. But she singled out JW when the subject turned to unoriginality.

[karelm 2,915]

I think if challenged to come up with a list of who she finds is an original, it will be a struggle. Originality is way over rated. I think distinctiveness is the ideal and JW fits that. This is someone who is inspired by multiple sources and infuses and develops it into a uniquely personal way. For example, Vaughan Williams was influenced by his teachers (Stanford and Parry, Ravel), folk music, tradition (hymnals and Tallis) and the result was very uniquely his and not at all original. He himself said he was derrivative but in one bar of his music you know you are listening to him and its the real deal. Your friend needs to get off the high horse. It is very easy to be original. Very tough to be good.

[TownerFan 4,991]

The key point is that film music (especially Hollywood film music) is, by and large, derivative by its own nature. It leans on the shoulder of the classical repertoire more often than not because of dramatic/narrative necessities and for clarity of intentions. Film music has to be simple and direct almost by command, so it's perfectly natural that composers had (and still have) to resort to established models. But that doesn't mean that it's all hack-work, of course.

What classical elitists/snobs don't seem to understand is that it requires A LOT of work, study, skill and bravura to be able to write in certain styles that are surely well-established, especially if one considers that it's usually done in a very limited amount of time and must always be subjugated to the film's needs. Add to this the incredible ability of Williams (and other fine composers as well) to come up with some of the most lasting and iconic melodies/themes of the second half of the 20th century and what we have isn't something that should be dismissed with a shrug.

[filmmusic 1,896]

Add to this the incredible ability of Williams (and other fine composers as well) to come up with some of the most lasting and iconic melodies/themes of the second half of the 20th century and what we have isn't something that should be dismissed with a shrug.

yes, writing such melodies , I think - from a composer's point of view - is the most difficult thing in the world, much more difficult than writing an avant-garde piece of music, because there's always the danger of becoming cliche, or uninteresting, or even kitsch.

while, the atonal innovative pieces are most easily welcomed by classical elitists, even if they're not good.

[karelm 2,915]

The key point is that film music (especially Hollywood film music) is, by and large, derivative by its own nature. It leans on the shoulder of the classical repertoire more often than not because of dramatic/narrative necessities and for clarity of intentions. Film music has to be simple and direct almost by command, so it's perfectly natural that composers had (and still have) to resort to established models. But that doesn't mean that it's all hack-work, of course.

What classical elitists/snobs don't seem to understand is that it requires A LOT of work, study, skill and bravura to be able to write in certain styles that are surely well-established, especially if one considers that it's usually done in a very limited amount of time and must always be subjugated to the film's needs. Add to this the incredible ability of Williams (and other fine composers as well) to come up with some of the most lasting and iconic melodies/themes of the second half of the 20th century and what we have isn't something that should be dismissed with a shrug.

Excellent piont. Another issue is the belief that film composers don't do their own work. While its true most composers have a team they depend on, this is usually do to intense schedule demands but some outside the business think its due to lack of skill. Unfortunately, this presumption is furthered by prominent examples where it is due to lack of skill.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,718]

I've always liked "Training With George", but I think that it is reminiscent of a few classical composers, Handel, or Bach, perhaps?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

yes, writing such melodies , I think - from a composer's point of view - is the most difficult thing in the world, much more difficult than writing an avant-garde piece of music, because there's always the danger of becoming cliche, or uninteresting, or even kitsch.

And an avant-garde piece has no such danger of becoming that? As someone who's written in that idiom, and tell you enough how utterly wrong you are.

[filmmusic 1,896]

yes, writing such melodies , I think - from a composer's point of view - is the most difficult thing in the world, much more difficult than writing an avant-garde piece of music, because there's always the danger of becoming cliche, or uninteresting, or even kitsch.

And an avant-garde piece has no such danger of becoming that? As someone who's written in that idiom, and tell you enough how utterly wrong you are.

I meant that in the tonic melodies the danger is much closer..

from my experience I have never seen an elitist criticizing an atonal piece as bad, while they say this for tonal melodies all the time!

Give them the Superman theme for example and an X avant-garde piece of a young composer, and they will tell you the 2nd is a masterpiece comparing to the first.

Honestly now, have you ever heard anyone criticizing an atonal piece as bad? I am curious to know..

[TownerFan 4,991]

The point imho is not melody vs. atonalism. Luckily, modern concert hall music has gone beyond this stiff competition, which is really an argument of the first part of the last century. You can be interesting and even original while using mostly tonal language as much as using atonalism. These are just tools of expression for the composer. The most important thing is the quality and the consistency of what you're writing.

Anyway, insisting to prove that Williams is as much original as Alban Berg is imho a very silly thing to do. As I said before, a film composer must resort on well-established (and even worn out) models because that's what the film is asking and also because in most film music there's a need for familiarity in the musical expression. The point is that it's not easy at all to do all this in the right way. The whole film career of John Williams demonstrates it. He kept his integrity intact, always giving back to the musical expression its own dignity as pure music. Sometimes he had to lean on familiar/pre-established musical ground maybe more than he would have done if it depended just on himself, but he never cut corners or resorted to blatant stealing in an intellectually/creatively dishonest way.

[indy4 155]

What I'm trying to prove is that the types of theft that JW commits are committed all the time by respected concert composers. It's probably true that JW does it more often than concert composers, due to the harsh realities of film music, but if we can excuse it x times for a concert composer we should be able to excuse it x + y times for JW. It bothers me that concert composers get a pass for doing this stuff, but JW's entire reputation is ruined (in some people's views).

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Add to this the incredible ability of Williams (and other fine composers as well) to come up with some of the most lasting and iconic melodies/themes of the second half of the 20th century and what we have isn't something that should be dismissed with a shrug.

yes, writing such melodies , I think - from a composer's point of view - is the most difficult thing in the world, much more difficult than writing an avant-garde piece of music, because there's always the danger of becoming cliche, or uninteresting, or even kitsch.

while, the atonal innovative pieces are most easily welcomed by classical elitists, even if they're not good.

I think this is an excellent point. Every other composer I've heard speak on the subject echoes that, and I can speak from my own experience that writing a meaningful four bar tune is far more intimidating than anything else.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Honestly now, have you ever heard anyone criticizing an atonal piece as bad? I am curious to know..

Yes, and I've done it myself too. I've seen atonal pieces criticised as cliched, banal, gimmicky and overreliant on shock tactics, with little to no musical substance.

The point imho is not melody vs. atonalism. Luckily, modern concert hall music has gone beyond this stiff competition, which is really an argument of the first part of the last century. You can be interesting and even original while using mostly tonal language as much as using atonalism. These are just tools of expression for the composer. The most important thing is the quality and the consistency of what you're writing.

Anyway, insisting to prove that Williams is as much original as Alban Berg is imho a very silly thing to do. As I said before, a film composer must resort on well-established (and even worn out) models because that's what the film is asking and also because in most film music there's a need for familiarity in the musical expression. The point is that it's not easy at all to do all this in the right way. The whole film career of John Williams demonstrates it. He kept his integrity intact, always giving back to the musical expression its own dignity as pure music. Sometimes he had to lean on familiar/pre-established musical ground maybe more than he would have done if it depended just on himself, but he never cut corners or resorted to blatant stealing in an intellectually/creatively dishonest way.

Very well said.

[Remains of Nurhachi 0]

Jabba song.

[Bespin 8,505]

For me the Main Theme from E.T. remains a true original motif (C -G -FEDE-C -G ).

It keeps hauting me since the childhood.

Very effective, like so many others JW motif !

So I pick up "Adventures on earth" from E.T.

[indy4 155]

For me the Main Theme from E.T. remains a true original motif (C -G -FEDE-C -G ).

It keeps hauting me since the childhood.

Very effective, like so many others JW motif !

So I pick up "Adventures on earth" from E.T.

I wouldn't be so sure, Bespin:

Also there's the Howard Hanson rip in Adventures on Earth. Still, it's a fantastic piece of music and one of my favorites by JW.

[Bespin 8,505]

I wouldn't be so sure, Bespin:

Also there's the Howard Hanson rip in Adventures on Earth. Still, it's a fantastic piece of music and one of my favorites by JW.

Funny! But that's the beauty of music, composers take parts here and there and develop them differently.

It's like the "ta-dam" of Jaws, we can hear it in the New World Symphony of Dvorak.

The motif maybe the same, the development is very different!

[TownerFan 4,991]

That comparison with the Dvoràk trio is quite stretched.

[Bespin 8,505]

I wonder why I forget to mention it earlier, but the Force Theme from Star Wars is a bit of a masterpiece (Binary Sunset and The Throne Room from ANH, Yoda And The Force from ESB, Light Of The Force from ROTJ, etc.)

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

This is Williams's most original pieces, not your personal favourites.

[Bespin 8,505]

As it's probably one of the most moving theme of all his corpus, so it maybe original I guess.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY has a very moving theme.

[Ludwig 1,120]

I tend to think of original techniques of Williams rather than individual pieces. One of his most original would have to be his use of non-tonal chords within a tonal context. One of the most pervasive of these chords is the quartal chord (a chord built in 4ths rather than 3rds), or what is called a "sus" chord in jazz.

This chord is found in prominent places in iconic themes like the fanfare in the Star Wars main title, the ends of phrases in the theme from Jurassic Park, and everywhere in the first few bars of "Out to Sea" from Jaws. Funny thing is, these chords sound tonal, as though they substitute for a more regular chord. But if you try playing the themes with the regular chords, they suddenly don't sound like Williams anymore. A true test of originality.

[indy4 155]

I'm curious Ludwig, is that something that has been done before by other composers? Or was JW the first?

[Ludwig 1,120]

I'm curious Ludwig, is that something that has been done before by other composers? Or was JW the first?

If we look back to the first half of the twentieth century, we can find precursors. But none, to my knowledge, employ these chords in the same way that Williams does. Debussy, for example, loved these quartal chords, but usually embedded them in a pentatonic rather than major or minor scale. You can also hear them in the opening strains of Stravinsky's The Rake's Progress (after the short fanfare), but they're used in a setting where almost all the chords are quartal. And in jazz, you hear them all the time, but they're surrounded by typical jazz chords with sevenths, ninths, and other added notes.

So I can't say I've heard these "sus" or quartal chords used in just this way in others' music. In Williams, these chords are surrounded largely by triads, so one could say that there's a "tonalization" of non-tonal chords like this that makes his music sound traditional and modern at the same time.

[Bespin 8,505]

It reminds me that in a another life I played clarinet...

Interesting this "Quartal" chord thing.

Here's an image to illustrate that in Star Wars Main Theme :

[Ludwig 1,120]

It reminds me that in a another life I played clarinet...

Interesting this "Quartal" thing.

Here's an images to illustrate that in Star Wars Main Theme :

Hmm, this looks strangely familiar.

[Bespin 8,505]

Hmm, this looks strangely familiar.

I accept PayPal payments.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Hmm, this looks strangely familiar.

I accept PayPal payments.

Say what now?

[Bespin 8,505]

@Ludwig

Sorry, I took the image from a blog, I though it was maybe yours!

[Ludwig 1,120]

@Ludwig

Sorry, I took the image from a blog, I though it was maybe yours!

Of course it is. I just didn't get your joke. But it's all good.

[indy4 155]

I'm curious Ludwig, is that something that has been done before by other composers? Or was JW the first?

If we look back to the first half of the twentieth century, we can find precursors. But none, to my knowledge, employ these chords in the same way that Williams does. Debussy, for example, loved these quartal chords, but usually embedded them in a pentatonic rather than major or minor scale. You can also hear them in the opening strains of Stravinsky's The Rake's Progress (after the short fanfare), but they're used in a setting where almost all the chords are quartal. And in jazz, you hear them all the time, but they're surrounded by typical jazz chords with sevenths, ninths, and other added notes.

So I can't say I've heard these "sus" or quartal chords used in just this way in others' music. In Williams, these chords are surrounded largely by triads, so one could say that there's a "tonalization" of non-tonal chords like this that makes his music sound traditional and modern at the same time.

Thanks for the info! Very interesting stuff.

[chuck 155]

What if JW somehow miraculously opened this site and he saw this thread, wouldn't he be insulted?

[King Mark 3,631]

I'm wondering about this thread. Why does it have to be Williams pieces that "don't sound like his usual stuff"

I'd argue that his usual stuff (something like the Superman main theme, Hedwig's Theme , NBC news theme or the Force theme...ect...) is what sets him apart from other classical composers. He makes harmonies and structures his works like no others can

You can tell immediately that JW composed them and that ONLY JW could have composed them, so that makes his music original by itself. I bet if Mozart heard the Raiders March he'd be impressed

You don't have to look at his weird stuff like 3 pieces for Solo Guitar or whatever

[Naïve Old Fart 9,718]

Strange that no-one has mentioned "The Abduction of Barry", possibly the most avant-garde thing JW has ever written.