The Force Awakens The Force Awakens SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Demondm810 399]

I'm hoping there's more to von Sydow's character.

[KK 3,307]

Isn't Ren's motif 5 notes? Then 4.

That's his villainous theme yes. He has another more "tragic" descending motif in the vein of RotS, which you can hear around the end credits.

[nightscape94 965]

Yea I don't get why Rey had a vision when she touched Luke's saber... that was kind of un-Star Wars-like

I took it as the equivalent of Luke having visions of the future and such in ESB via the Force, but this time there's a visual representation of it.

The motivations of both the First Order and The Resistance were extremely muddled.

Yes, what was Ren's ultimate goals? What are Snoke's? What are Hux's?

Why did Ren want Luke's lightsaber?

Unlike the original Star Wars, this was build with a trilogy guaranteed. They don't seem to need everything explained in the first movie.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Isn't Ren's motif 5 notes? Then 4.

That's his villainous theme yes. He has another more "tragic" descending motif in the vein of RotS, which you can hear around the end credits.

That's the one that plays when Han and Leia are talking about him. And when Ren is talking to Yorick...eeeh Vader.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I sort of like how Von Sydow was killed off in the first 5 minutes. If it had just been some random character actor, it wouldn't have been nearly as effective for establishing Ren as a menacing presence.

[Quintus 5,399]

I was listening to his 5 note one while thinking, hey, is this Close Encounters of the Third Kind, inverted?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I sort of like how Von Sydow was killed off in the first 5 minutes. If it had just been some random character actor, it wouldn't have been nearly as effective for establishing Ren as a menacing presence.

Good use of a famous actor in a near cameo.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree. He seems to be a replacement character for Han, introduced here, but not much needed yet. Like Captain Phasma

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, I definitely see that. But it wouldn't have hurt to have seen him around more.

On that note, I know I've said it before, but Ford really nailed Han here. One of the best parts of the film!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I even like Carrie Fisher!

It just dawned on me that we will never see Han, Luke and Leia on screen together!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Fisher was good, but she was given awful dialogue which made her scenes with Ford awkward and lacking in chemistry.

No!!! Luke will bring back Han from the dead! He has to!

Ooh, is that what Luke is going to teach Rey?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Jon Snow and Han Solo will team up in the sequel and kick ass!

[mrbellamy 6,287]

I even like Carrie Fisher!

It just dawned on me that we will never see Han, Luke and Leia on screen together!

Yes we do! In Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi!

I appreciated them resisting a big reunion scene. I'm not sure it would have been that satisfying in the end and it really could have felt like one nostalgic step too far in a movie filled with them. I'm interested to see where they go with Han's death now. Surely it will loom large over this trilogy.

[Jay 37,368]

I guess Leia will be the one to confront Ren in Episode 8 or 9, then. And hopefully not die.

Maybe she'll get to Use The Force after all

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm surprised you arent angry that all of that didnt happen already!

But I dont think Leia will go mano-a-mano with Ren. Obviously Rey will.

[Jay 37,368]

Brother and Sister Battle Royale 2019!

[crocodile 8,017]

It is funny how they discarded the EU as not canon... and then repeated the same stuff. Leia never really became a Jedi in the books. She was more involved in politics and stuff. And one of their three kids turns to the Dark Side and becomes a Sith Lord. The remnants of the Empire being taken over by other leaders, new superweapons. All this stuff.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, so?

The EU was declared non-canon so Disney could mould it's own. That hardly mean that there will not be similarities.

[crocodile 8,017]

I don't mind. It's just strange. The new film almost feels like it could take place after all those books. That's what I meant.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sure. But now Disney can change the exact circumstances to what they feel plays best on film, rather then being obligated to follow a decades old EU

[Jay 37,368]

I find it hilarious that anyone thinks Disney's new movies should have adhered to to the EU. That's more books comics nad other things that the people making the movie would have had time to read!

I'm glad they get to do whatever they want in the sequel trilogy.

[nightscape94 965]

Maybe she'll get to Use The Force after all

Yeah, sort of makes Luke's statement to her on the bridge in ROTJ seem anticlimactic.

[Jay 37,368]

The extent of Leia's Force-sensitivity, in the films so far, is Luke communicating with her at Bespin in TESB and then her feeling Hans's death here.

It's possible she can do a lot more, I suppose.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I find it hilarious that anyone thinks Disney's new movies should have adhered to to the EU. That's more books comics nad other things that the people making the movie would have had time to read!

I'm glad they get to do whatever they want in the sequel trilogy.

I compare it to how Marvel keeps the MCU seperate from their comic book continuity. The two are different entities. Why should one be obligated to follow the other?

I'm sure that eventually Disney and Lucasfilm will use characters and situations from the EU in their films, but in different ways.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Han's death didn't bother me at all, and everyone I know who's seen it didn't really care either. That is the fault of the writers if they didn't make the audience care for one of the most beloved characters in the entire saga. I did cry during the film though, because every time Daisy Ridley was on-screen I realised I would never be with someone that damn beautiful in my pathetic life.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

She is beautiful isn't she?

[Score 770]

But that's the thing. The film keeps hammering home that Luke is "the last Jedi".

If any random person in the galaxy can be born with Force-sensitivity at any random time, then that loses all meaning.

I mean, shit, Rey figured out how to Jedi Mind Trick AND Force Pull completely on her own with zero training whatsoever.

So what does "training" even matter? What is the difference between a "jedi" and "a person who can use the force to bend the law of physics" at this point?

Well, the title of the movie is "The Force Awakens", and at some points somebody says "There was an awakening. Did you notice it?" (or something along that line). So, maybe Luke is indeed the last Jedi up to that point, when the Force "awakens" in Rey. Maybe the Force does not pick at random, and the particular person of Rey is special. If she is Han and Leia's daughter (and then Kylo Ren's sister), as I suspect, it would make sense... after all, she would be the grand-daughter of Anakin Skywalker, not just any random person in the galaxy. This might also be related to the "timely" awakening of R2D2 with the missing part of the map to find Luke. Now that the Force has awakened in Rey, the action of Luke on her is needed to complete her Jedi training.

I think we will understand all this better in the new movie, by seeing how Luke reacts to Rey's arrival. But I would bet that Rey is needed to "bring balance to the Force", now that a bad guy (Kylo Ren) has become "seriously" bad and completed his passage to the Dark Side by killing his father.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But that's the thing. The film keeps hammering home that Luke is "the last Jedi".

If any random person in the galaxy can be born with Force-sensitivity at any random time, then that loses all meaning

Seriously? Have you ever seen a Star Wars movie before?

Being a Jedi and being Force Sensitive arent the same things and never have been. You are a Jedi when you have received a certain training.

If you are gonna bash the movie then at least do it according to the rules of the galaxy it takes place in.

[indy4 155]

Saw it last night. Here are some thougths:

Overall, very good. Acting and new characters were definitely strong points, and it was awesome to see Han, Leia and Chewie back together again. SFX were great, awesome to see practical effects used so much (particularly for the characters). The one exception was the new lightsabers...I didn't like the way they looked in the trailers, and that carried through to the film (I don't mind Ren's cross-sword, I mean the actual glowing part looked weird).

The design for both the head bad guys was pretty weak...Snoke looked like the KotCS aliens. Ren's mask was pretty good, but when he took it off it was pretty bad...Adam Driver looked too young and twerpy to be a serious villain. But I like that the film seemed to acknowledge that, with Snoke referencing that Ren needs to "complete his training," and having him be emotionally torn, etc.

Han's death, however predictable, was really quite sad. I'm bummed we won't be seeing anymore of him, and that his story had to end to sadly.

And yes, the story is a complete rehash of Star Wars, which was disappointing.

Music--need to listen more to develop a complete opinion. I hear the criticism of some...the new themes don't seem particularly interesting, but I also think there's room for it to grow. The Scherzo for X-Wings is pretty cool. One of the bad guy themes reminded me of Tintin (same rhythm). And yes, it was great to actually hear the music. And also to get confirmation that JW still remember the love theme for Han and Leia.

Hmmmm, other random tidbits:

- all the non-Stormtrooper, non-Ren, non-Snoke badguys had British accents ala Tarkin. lol

- what was with that shot in the beginning where BB8 was rolling over a hill on Jakku, and a random Cantina aliens' head pops up out of the sand and then we immediately cut to another scene??? That was so sloppy

- nice "Starkiller" reference

I liked this movie, but I'm also feeling very nostalgic for BOTH the OT and the prequels.

[Jay 37,368]

Oh yea I forgot about that sand dune bit. That was odd

[karelm 2,914]

Oh yea I forgot about that sand dune bit. That was odd

Isn't that a very George Lucasy thing to do? Remember this random thing from ROTJ that was sitting off to the corner?

This is part of the "lived in" quality of the films in how the universe is populated.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yep

[TownerFan 4,983]

What I found really disappointing is how poorly adapted is the classic paradigm of Joseph Campbell (the Hero's Journey) when it comes to Rey. Very sloppy screenwriting.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Explain?

I did notice that it wasn't explained anywhere why it's Rey who goes to find Luke, and not Leia, or someone Leia has actually known for a long time (like Poe)

[Jay 37,368]

I think Leia believed that the force was calling Rey there. And she had Luke's saber.

[TownerFan 4,983]

It seems they chose to compress too much or even jump completely several key points of the Hero's Journey.

If you compare Luke's hero journey in A New Hope with Rey's in The Force Awakens (it's basically the same story) you can find there are things missing (or poorly managed) that doesn't give Rey the full character development arc she needs to be truly satisfying.

I hope to find time to work out a proper chart comparing Luke's with Rey's.

[karelm 2,914]

It seems they chose to compress too much or even jump completely several key points of the Hero's Journey.

If you compare Luke's hero journey in A New Hope with Rey's in The Force Awakens (it's basically the same story) you can find there are things missing (or poorly managed) that doesn't give Rey the full character development arc she needs to be truly satisfying.

I hope to find time to work out a proper chart comparing Luke's with Rey's.

This falls into the category of Star Wars was expected to be a single film rather than a trilogy.

[TownerFan 4,983]

It seems they chose to compress too much or even jump completely several key points of the Hero's Journey.

If you compare Luke's hero journey in A New Hope with Rey's in The Force Awakens (it's basically the same story) you can find there are things missing (or poorly managed) that doesn't give Rey the full character development arc she needs to be truly satisfying.

I hope to find time to work out a proper chart comparing Luke's with Rey's.

This falls into the category of Star Wars was expected to be a single film rather than a trilogy.

Sure. I can accept that what we have seen in TFA is just the beginning (Call/Refusal/Acceptance) of Rey's full journey, but imho it must work good both on the single film scale and the overall trilogy macrostructure.

[karelm 2,914]

Sure. I can accept that what we have seen in TFA is just the beginning (Call/Refusal/Acceptance) of Rey's full journey, but imho it must work good both on the single film scale and in the overall trilogy macrostructure.

Fair point but one could argue Campbell's story structure is not based on a serial but on a single story. A serial will end with a cliff hanger but Campbell's structure ends with the hero returning home with the elixir now enlightened through their having survived the adventure. I actually thought Rey was a good character in classic Campbell dressing. One thing that did seem rushed is the blossoming romance between Rey and Finn. I would have preferred much more sexual tension (ANH treatment of Han and Leia).

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think the problem with how Rey's journey is written is actually the early part (which is what this movie is about). It's surely too early to see the Return with the Elixir.

Basically, we can say that the Call to Adventure is the scene when she finds Luke's lightsaber - even though in purely plot-related terms (i.e. microstructure) the Call is when she finds BB-8 and Finn and choose to fly away with them. These two elements don't gel well because we become invested in Rey's character first as a kind of adventurer per se. And then she immediately refuses the call when Maz talks about her being one with the Force, but then she ends up being abducted by Kylo in a sort of Deus Ex Machina resolution and she finds the Force awakening in herself (without anyone really explaining to her what the Force is!) after being captive. Why? Because she has no Mentor around. Han Solo covers this mentoring role only very partially (and he's mentor to both Rey and Finn). So, Rey ends up accepting the call in a very stodgy way. Luke's acceptance of the call comes in a much simpler, but way more effective way (the Empire kills his aunt and uncle so he doesn't have anything else to lose) and that sets him on the path of the adventure.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Seriously?

Its part one of three.

Stop condeming it already!

You and Jason are impossible

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Wow. Some unbearable déjà vu happening here. As always, some people are bafflingly interested in dissecting things as if they're high school students with a dead frog splayed open on their desk. Petulant and sterile.

Where is the humanity? The soul? These things are disturbingly absent from this place - and the world - lately. People just don't care about the "thing" anymore. Only how they can criticize or analyze it. Seems like a miserable way to be, but what do I know.

A-men.

Everyone's getting into those AP English high school classes and ready to write a poor analysis of something! Anything!

[TownerFan 4,983]

I'm only expressing a few observations, not doing any kind of lightsaber-swinging to show off my knowledge. I think it's perfectly fine to analyze a Star Wars film through the lens of monomyth.

Seriously?

Its part one of three.

Stop condeming it already!
You and Jason are impossible

Come on, I'm not condemning anything, I just try to understand why I didn't like some things and why the script doesn't work as well as it could have (imho, of course).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You are judging a person's arc before the story has been complet. Which seems a bit silly.

Be patient my friend

[TownerFan 4,983]

Sure. Anyway, I didn't find the film satisfying from a dramatic and narrative point of view. The more I think about it, the more I find it inconsequential, actually. But, hey, it's just me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I found it very emotional and satisfying. I hope the next film will deliver

[indy4 155]

Oh yea I forgot about that sand dune bit. That was odd

Isn't that a very George Lucasy thing to do? Remember this random thing from ROTJ that was sitting off to the corner?

This is part of the "lived in" quality of the films in how the universe is populated.

Yeah I'm totally down with that, it's just the execution was way off. Like the alien head pops up for less than 2 seconds and then we're already cutting away. I have a feeling the segment was initially longer but they cut it down for some reason