The Force Awakens The Force Awakens SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

1 hour ago, filmmusic said:

I didn't expect anything.

That's why I was insisting beforehand, that any Star Wars movie from now on is unneeded. Been there, done that.

(also, that I am not a child any more and I'm grown up, doesn't mean I am not surprised by movies. I am. But, it's usually old movies that I haven't seen. The last I can remember was ROCKY, and  I was extremely negatively prejudiced about that because I don't like sports of any kind and I thought I wouldn't like any sport movie. But I loved this movie so much, and now it has become a yearly staple)

 

Hey, I love old movies too. Particularly anything from the 60's to the 80's was the high peak of cinema for me, but still with your general attitude of not liking modern films (apart from Ghilbi I assume?) it was a given you weren't going to like the new SW film, even if it was everything you hoped for. I just dislike the attitude of "yeah, sorry, not for me, I won't be seeing the next ones, sorry folks" - if you didn't like it, don't apologize! It comes off as condescending, at least to me (to be clear, I'm not just talking about your post, usually a lot of people use that sarcastic "sorry" and it just irritates me). 

 

It's not a perfect film by any means, people say it's better than the prequels and KOTCS, and sure it is, but it's not a fair comparison. It's like a saying a glass is better than a broken glass. Sure, it's true, but then you're comparing to a really low standard. And sure, I would have loved if they would have gone for a more traditional cinematography instead of shooting in 35mm to make it look like it was shot on digital, but times have changed and we can choose to keep up or stay behind in our perfect comfy bubble. 

 

 

Quote

Well maybe not Jedi but Star Wars? Yes, absolutely!

 

Yeah, no.

[steb74 53]

Star Wars was very much a milestone (and still is in my opinion), you not agreeing or wanting that to be the case doesn't change the fact that it was ....'sorry' but that's the way it is.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I love the wide shot of Kylo's ship landing in the Jakku village.  Very large and imposing.  

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

2 minutes ago, steb74 said:

Star Wars was very much a milestone (and still is in my opinion), you not agreeing or wanting that to be the case doesn't change the fact that it was ....'sorry' but that's the way it is.

 

Ok, maybe it's a milestone because of what a hit it became but it's not good filmmaking.

[steb74 53]

Just now, Michael said:

Ok, maybe it's a milestone because of what a hit it became but it's not good filmmaking.

 

Star Wars bad film making? Give me a break .......needless to say, I think you're completely and laughably wrong.

I think it's an incredibly well made film and can still teach a thing or three to anyone attempting to be a film maker.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

4 minutes ago, steb74 said:

 

Star Wars bad film making? Give me a break .......needless to say, I think you're completely and laughably wrong.

I think it's an incredibly well made film and can still teach a thing or three to anyone attempting to be a film maker.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but in my opinion Lucas is compltely incompetent as a director. He's fantastic as a story/idea man, but aside from a handful of shots, the original Star Wars is directed like shit. Compare it back to back to Jaws, just two years earlier. Spielberg shows much more creativity in every single shot than Lucas could ever dream of. Besides, I always thought the original SW acting was quite akward, like the actors don't know what they're doing or supposed to do. And with those lines, sheesh...

 

PS: On the light side, funny how we're both Spanish speakers and have to discuss this in English. (the old Argentinian-Spanish rivalry I guess)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The acting is fine in SW. Back then, Lucas had a creative team that'd talk back at him if they thought his direction or ideas were bad.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

5 minutes ago, Michael said:

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but in my opinion Lucas is compltely incompetent as a director. He's fantastic as a story/idea man, but aside from a handful of shots, the original Star Wars is directed like shit. Compare it back to back to Jaws, just two years earlier. Spielberg shows much more creativity in every single shot than Lucas could ever dream of. Besides, I always thought the original SW acting was quite akward, like the actors don't know what they're doing or supposed to do. And with those lines, sheesh...

 

PS: On the light side, funny how we're both Spanish speakers and have to discuss this in English. (the old Argentinian-Spanish rivalry I guess)

I agree with most of this. 

[steb74 53]

14 minutes ago, Michael said:

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but in my opinion Lucas is compltely incompetent as a director. He's fantastic as a story/idea man, but aside from a handful of shots, the original Star Wars is directed like shit. Compare it back to back to Jaws, just two years earlier. Spielberg shows much more creativity in every single shot than Lucas could ever dream of. Besides, I always thought the original SW acting was quite akward, like the actors don't know what they're doing or supposed to do. And with those lines, sheesh...

 

PS: On the light side, funny how we're both Spanish speakers and have to discuss this in English. (the old Argentinian-Spanish rivalry I guess)

 

Well to be honest my main concern is the final result, the sum of the parts. If SW was a badly made film it wouldn't have survived and its presentation of a that story wouldn't continue to inspire new viewers or new generations in my opinion.

I know essentially anything can be compared (I sometimes can't stand this apples and oranges thing) but Jaws is such a strange example for me compared to Lucas' almost quasi (I hate using that word!) Docu style, for that movie at least.

Anyway, SW isn't for everybody and whether it's loved or loathed by others doesn't bother me, I just profoundly disagree with the claim that it's a badly made film.

 

I'm English by the way, I only live in Spain ....perhaps that's a different kind of rivalry .....no not the Falklands, ha ........bloody Maradona!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

56 minutes ago, Mr. Big said:

I love the wide shot of Kylo's ship landing in the Jakku village.  Very large and imposing.  

 

On that subject, it seems like Abrams meant it when he said he looked to Ford/Kurosawa/Malick for pacing wisdom etc.  It was a fairly "calm" film and wasn't Abramsy at all.  He really was able to step back and come at it from the right angle.  

[mrbellamy 6,287]

There's some very nice restraint in TFA. Some lovely static establishing shots, lots of scenes that are played out in masters. The simplicity of that long hold on Finn in medium-close up as he contemplates his situation after the TIE Fighter crash, followed by the slow pan of him walking across the desert, with Williams' strikingly sparse ambience...that is not a moment I can recall in any other Abrams movie.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I didn't like that one shot of Kylo where the camera is titled so far upwards that only his helmet is in frame.  I see what Abrams was trying to do there but it just came across as tacky in that instance.  

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Big said:

I didn't like that one shot of Kylo where the camera is titled so far upwards that only his helmet is in frame.  I see what Abrams was trying to do there but it just came across as tacky in that instance.  

 

 

 

When was this shot?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

2 minutes ago, Drax said:

 

When was this shot?

I believe it was when he was walking down a corridor to see Snoke.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Unfortunately, it seems like this film has made Abrams into a director much more equipped to do a Star Trek film than he was when he actually did them.

[A24 4,333]

6 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

On that subject, it seems like Abrams meant it when he said he looked to Ford/Kurosawa/Malick for pacing wisdom etc.  It was a fairly "calm" film and wasn't Abramsy at all.  He really was able to step back and come at it from the right angle.  

 

Thank god it was less Abramsy but it was still Abramsy. Things were constantly happening fast and always too soon. Abrams' train needs to keep moving or he fears people might jump off. A bit like Nolan, actually (but without his complexity). But yes, I expected worse. In the end, pace and editing are too snappy to leave an impression. 

 

When will Malick do a Star Wars movie?!  

[crumbs 14,316]

I was impressed with his level of restraint cinematographically, but I wish Spielberg had nudged him about the editing. The film really gets no chance to breathe in the second half. 

 

I appreciated that in the first act he allowed the edit to hold on simple character MCUs longer than most modern action films would dare. Always let your actors' performance guide the edit, in this context.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I was impressed with his level of restraint cinematographically, but I wish Spielberg had nudged him about the editing. The film really gets no chance to breathe in the second half. 

 

I appreciated that in the first act he allowed the edit to hold on simple character MCUs longer than most modern action films would dare. Always let your actors' performance guide the edit, in this context.

Yeah, I feel like Williams' score really could have benefited from a slower approach pacing-wise.

[A24 4,333]

Abrams does what Marquand did with Return Of The Jedi. For instance, Luke goes back to Yoda and what should have been a beautiful quiet moment is nothing but a telegrammed soap scene. He arrived, he immediately stood next to Yoda's deathbed, and Yoda died. Terrible cinema!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

How would Alex the autuer have created this scene?

[A24 4,333]

Slower and not everything all at once so that there is a sense of time and gravity. Yoda was worth it. Marquand rushed it (telegram style) as if Yoda was a character they needed to get rid off quickly. Abrams is doing the same with Maz (see critique in youtube video). Maz is barely introduced and immediately she starts handing over lightsabers. What?!

Most of you do no longer want a sense of time and space, you want the story to move along and it doesn't even matter if it's the same story over and over again. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The "Maz" part is the weakest of the film.

[filmmusic 1,829]

9 hours ago, Michael said:

I just dislike the attitude of "yeah, sorry, not for me, I won't be seeing the next ones, sorry folks" - if you didn't like it, don't apologize! It comes off as condescending, at least to me (to be clear, I'm not just talking about your post, usually a lot of people use that sarcastic "sorry" and it just irritates me). 

Yeah, Ok, you said you didn't talk about my post, but just for the record, I didn't use "sorry" once.

 

edit: Also, there are (rarely) some post 2005 films I love, like Black Swan, The Tree of Life (except for the Ghibli ones).

But i think i've yet to find just ONE sci-fi/adventure movie that combines at least these elements:

-good traditional film music

-restrained effects and not much CGI

-good story and chartacters

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You are not of the body!

[Brónach 1,302]

10 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Yeah, Ok, you said you didn't talk about my post, but just for the record, I didn't use "sorry" once.

 

edit: Also, there are (rarely) some post 2005 films I love, like Black Swan, The Tree of Life (except for the Ghibli ones).

 

Wasn't Black Swan just Perfect Blue or one of those?

 

I just looked at my the part of the last ten years of my movie list, and there's a lot that I love, but much more that I might like that I haven't seen yet. Heh. 

[Quintus 5,399]

10 hours ago, Michael said:

 

Ok, maybe it's a milestone because of what a hit it became but it's not good filmmaking.

 

Really? In my view, Star Wars is a bit of a freak, because it's a finely crafted film in pretty much every respect, and it was made by George Lucas. 

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

I was impressed with his level of restraint cinematographically, but I wish Spielberg had nudged him about the editing. The film really gets no chance to breathe in the second half. 

 

I get what you're saying, but even the great Steven Spielberg has demonstrated an inability to take a step back and look at his editing. The final act of Tintin really threatened to undo my enjoyment of the brilliant pacing he (and Michael Kahn) achieved prior to the jam packed finale material. 

 

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

The "Maz" part is the weakest of the film.

 

It didn't work, it feels like an insert. Plus the design of the locale is uninspiring. 

 

Luckily the movie was great beforehand and recovered well immediately after. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, up until when the fighting begins it feels to obviously as a section designed to move several plot elements along. With not a lot of style.

[Quintus 5,399]

Looking for some sort of perfection or complaining about the lack of it in this is a fool's game. After the prequels it only needed to be a solid and unembarrassing Star Wars movie, and Abrams, surprising absolutely nobody, pulled it off. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yep

[filmmusic 1,829]

10 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Looking for some sort of perfection or complaining about the lack of it in this is a fool's game. After the prequels it only needed to be a solid and unembarrassing Star Wars movie, and Abrams, surprising absolutely nobody, pulled it off. 

Speaking for myself, I was not looking for perfection, I was looking for necessity!

Something that I absolutely not see.

I don't see any necessity in continuing Star Wars, as I wouldn't see any necessity in releasing new Harry potter movies. (still I haven't seen the last 2, because all the previous ones were more than enough for me. From a point and on I was bored, because all the thematic material had been exhausted)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I was looking for entertainment, and I got it.

 

What film is ever necessary anyway?

[filmmusic 1,829]

6 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I was looking for entertainment, and I got it.

 

What film is ever necessary anyway?

The film that brings something new to the table and goes ahead to the next level.

 

Of course I don't imply that every movie I have seen, was absolutely necessary.

But those ones were individual movies. They were not part of a franchise.

 

So, my "necessity" comment applies more to movies of a franchise.

Yes, I don't feel that 20 Star Wars films are necessary (not even 12 or 9), and I say this, even without seeing them.

[Brónach 1,302]

The necessity would appear if it was a pastiche of more stuff instead of just Star Wars.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

TFA was necessary in a way, to revitalize said franchise.

 

Now we will have to see it they are willing to take it somewhere new.

[Quintus 5,399]

The film was packed full of "necessity", from a certain point of view. Necessity in craft and execution. These are the things the burnt out brigade needed, badly, from a new Star Wars movie. 

[filmmusic 1,829]

5 minutes ago, Quintus said:

The film was packed full of "necessity", from a certain point of view. Necessity in craft and execution. These are the things the burnt out brigade needed, badly, from a new Star Wars movie. 

So, do you feel that this movie brought something that you have never seen again (not only in Star Wars but in other movies too) and that's why it was necessary?

 

edit: While i don't LOVE Avatar, I still feel it was a bit of necessary, certainly much more necessary than a new Star Wars Movie and moved the industry forward.

Of course I won't feel the same when Avatar 8 is released.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lee never said not, not here, not in any other post.

 

There is nothing remotely groundbreaking or new about TFA. But that was never the point of the film anyway.

[Quintus 5,399]

 

12 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

So, do you feel that this movie brought something that you have never seen again (not only in Star Wars but in other movies too) and that's why it was necessary?

 

Heh, I watch and thoroughly enjoy formulaic and obvious movies all the time mate, same as yourself. It's a non issue for me. I just like observing craft and execution anyway.

 

Btw, you can't really criticise TFA while praising Avatar for the same things, that's not allowed. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Did he praise Avatar?

 

Nice movie, but derivative as hell.

[filmmusic 1,829]

9 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

 

Heh, I watch and thoroughly enjoy formulaic and obvious movies all the time mate. It's a non issue for me. I just like observing fine craft and execution anyway.

 

Btw, you can't really criticise TFA while praising Avatar for the same things, that's not allowed. 

I'm criticising TFA more about the story.

Not the visuals. yes, I agree it was fairly well executed. But that doesn't tell me anything when I don't care for any of the characters, even those I loved from the original trilogy.

 

Avatar felt necessary visually.

TFA didn't feel (to me) necessary visually, and certainly not story-wise.

 

6 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Did he praise Avatar?

 

Nice movie, but derivative as hell.

 

I explained above.

yes, it was very derivative, and it had nothing we have never seen story-wise, but at least, it went ahead visually.

TFA didn't do anything..

[Brónach 1,302]

It went ahead visually in which way? Besides the improvements of mocap technology.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It had 3D!

 

?

[Quintus 5,399]

44 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

I'm criticising TFA more about the story.

Not the visuals. yes, I agree it was fairly well executed. But that doesn't tell me anything when I don't care for any of the characters, even those I loved from the original trilogy.

 

This is fair enough. 

[filmmusic 1,829]

By the way, I loved some non-CGI creatures in the desert planet.

I'm not sure if they could go with the same approach to the CGI ones.

Snoke was the worst.

 

But it was a big plus about some of those creatures.

I loved this:

 

and this, although it was seen only for a bit in the film from behind i think:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=quvk0vd5dZA

[Quintus 5,399]

See, you're already coming around  

 

It is useless to resist! 

[crocodile 8,013]

4 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

By the way, I loved some non-CGI creatures in the desert planet.

I'm not sure if they could go with the same approach to the CGI ones.

Snoke was the worst.

 

But it was a big plus about some of those creatures.

I loved this:

 

and this, although it was seen only for a bit in the film from behind i think:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=quvk0vd5dZA

 

I was surprised that this was real:
 

 

Karol

[filmmusic 1,829]

7 minutes ago, Quintus said:

See, you're already coming around  

 

It is useless to resist! 

haha.

I don't think so.

I just mentioned some positive things, so as not to seem completely negative!

I had almost a fight with my friend yesterday because he said I just said negative things because I want to say negative things and I'm whining.

The thing is, I can support each one of those with certain arguments, and I am not negative just for the shake of it.

I told him, I can't understand how an "opinion" is considered whining. Anyway.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh it can be. Especially on the Internet.

[Quintus 5,399]

Filmmusic must scroll past a lot of users posts here, naming no names. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!