#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 DOTF is fantastic. But in it's concert version it does go on and on a bit too long. In the films it's never really been used very well. Cut up in the first. Only a small fragment in the second, and only half of a new rendition in the third. Also, the theme is so massive, and so epic from the get-go, that there's really nowhere for it to go. Which is why JW composed Battle Of The Heroes I guess. (Reminds me of how the Nazgul music in the first LOTR film is bigger and more epic then in the third) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I disagree. I think the DotF could have been developed in very interesting ways, was it given the chance. I think Karol mentioned how it could have acted as some kind of "Hand of Fate" motif throughout the trilogy. At last, that never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I guess thats why I prefer TFA to the Prequels scores. Thjose have a bunch of great themes, but many seem underused or under developped. I love Anakin's theme on the CD, but in the film it really isnt very noticible. DOTF is brilliant, but it only comes in at the last part of the film. So thematically the score is carried more by it's secondary themes. Same again for ROTS. Lots a great material, which comes out of nowhere, and feels underused. Across The Stars is probably the prequel themes that is used most effectively. And I would not rank that one among JW's best. Rey's theme has more development and variation in a single score then DOTF got in 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 1 hour ago, MrScratch said: Do you guys all think Kylo's Theme is one of Williams' great themes? One of the great Star Wars themes? How do you compare it to the Imperial motif from ANH, to the Imperial March, to the Emperor's Theme, to Jabba's Theme? To the droid federation march? Is it as good as any of those? I honestly just don't think so. Meh. Never found that one to be very interesting TBH. "March of the Resistance" is a much more satisfying and interesting exploration of that sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Loert 2,515 Posted January 16, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2016 I'm fairly indifferent to DOTF as a piece of music, but after reading some online TFA reviews I now sorta wish it never existed... "There were no hummable themes like DUEL OF THE FATES" "It was good but John Williams has written better songs in the past, like DUEL OF THE FATES" "Rey's theme was the only memorable melody from the entire soundtrack, but still it doesn't beat DUEL OF THE FATES" "Why wasn't there DUEL OF THE FATES in this movie?! It's the best Star wars theme ever!!!" "There was not enough old themes in the soundtrack" "You mean like DUEL OF THE FATES?" "Exactly!" Not Mr. Big, Taikomochi and MikeH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 The Droid Federation March is another example of a really great theme that isnt used very well in the movie. Nor does it really fit those silly droids in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: The Droid Federation March is OK, but I much prefer the march heard in The Arena! That one is badass! Agreed, though it's still no "The Resistance" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: The Droid Federation March is OK, but I much prefer the march heard in The Arena! That one is badass! It's even better in The Last Crusade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 25 minutes ago, Stefancos said: The Droid Federation March is another example of a really great theme that isnt used very well in the movie. Nor does it really fit those silly droids in any way. Would you have preferred something more bumbling and whimsical like March of the Villains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I think we all woulda liked something like Crimebuster's theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 OOM-9 Always Gets His Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, E.T. and Elliot said: Would you have preferred something more bumbling and whimsical like March of the Villains? Nope. The Federation March is an excellent piece of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Indubitably. He wrote a great theme for an ineffective droid army. Shame they weren't a major part of the prequel trilogy. "The Jedi cut 'em down like they're butter, and they really are pretty useless...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 One of our biggest newspapers, Helsingin Sanomat, had a whole page feature on John Williams this morning written by their regular culture critic. While the opening makes a nice read recording Williams's success and accomplishment, the second half is dedicated mostly to musing on whether or not Williams is just plagiarising the classics, meaning composers like Stravinsky, Holst and Ravel. Off-handedly the new SW score is also dismissed as containing very little of interest but the critic lays the blame mostly at J.J. Abrams' door and finally begrudgingly admits there are a few nice moments in the new piece. The plagiarism angle is of course presented in the way that some of our local conductors and musicians who appreciate him can say he is mostly just homaging and how accomplished composer he is but it leaves a bit bitter taste in the mouth when the critic holds on to the negative so intentionally. Especially when they include other critics dismissing Williams' musical approaches as force feeding of obvious emotions on the audience, which is again a gross simplification and generilization of his work and methods. In addition the article also contains a section where you can compare stuff like Korngold's King's Row and Star Wars Main Title and some other examples of Williams's apparent plagiarism and decide for yourself. So the article is really a very backhanded compliment to the composer. In comparison e.g. the Ennio Morricone article in the same paper when The Hateful Eight came out didn't contain any of such accusations or undermining tone but was overwhelmingly positive all the way through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 What a cunt! Taikomochi and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,319 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 It's an ongoing story and the references to past themes are necessary! What else is Williams meant to do, just abandon everything established and start fresh? Yeah, that makes musical sense! If he wants an original score, just look at the multitude of original scores he's done since Indy 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 59 minutes ago, Incanus said: One of our biggest newspapers, Helsingin Sanomat, had a whole page feature on John Williams this morning written by their regular culture critic. While the opening makes a nice read recording Williams's success and accomplishment, the second half is dedicated mostly to musing on whether or not Williams is just plagiarising the classics. Off-handedly the new SW score is also dismissed as containing very little of interest but the critic lays the blame mostly on J.J. Abrams' door and finally begrudgingly admits there are a few nice moments in the score. The plagiarism angle is of course presented in the way that some of our local conductors and musicians who appreciate him can say he is mostly just homaging and how accomplished composer he is but it leaves a bit bitter taste in the mouth when the critic holds on the negative so intentionally. Especially when they include other critics dismissing Williams' musical approaches as force feeding of obvious emotions on the audience, which is again a gross simplification and generilization of his work and methods. In addition article also contains a section where you can compare stuff like King's Row and Star Wars Main Title and some other examples of Williams's apparent plagiarism and decide for yourself. So the article is really a very backhanded compliment to the composer. In comparison e.g. the Ennio Morricone article in the same paper when The Hateful Eight came out didn't contain any of such accusations or undermining tone but was overwhelmingly positive all the way through. Morricone is fashionable to like among the Truly Cultured because reasons. Williams is popcorn drivel! Better off just listening to Holst and Elgar unless you're a low-brow smeg. Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 58 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said: Morricone is fashionable to like among the Truly Cultured because reasons. Williams is popcorn drivel! Better off just listening to Holst and Elgar unless you're a low-brow smeg. It's all in the name. Ennio Morricone sounds like the name of a fine wine while John Williams sounds like the name of an accountant. The intellectual elite can't have such an average sounding name stand among the greatest composers of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 God. So many angry fanboys... You guys really can't handle the truth, can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, Mr. Big said: It's all in the name. Ennio Morricone sounds like the name of a fine wine while John Williams sounds like the name of an accountant. It's true. All of it. http://www.johnwilliamsandco.com/about/index.html Scarpia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, MikeH said: It's true. All of it. http://www.johnwilliamsandco.com/about/index.html Hey, I want to hire that accountant. If he's anywhere near as good as his namesake, I'll get a million dollar tax refund! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 50 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: God. So many angry fanboys... You guys really can't handle the truth, can you? We are still denial BB! Other stages will follow later, acceptance comes last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarpia 132 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 I've always found the comparison between Korngold's King's Row and the Star Wars main title way too far-fetched. The first five notes are truly similar, but literally nothing else is even close. You could point out that the next motif may sound like the second motif from Superman march, but just rythmically. I think these kind of 'comparisons' are made just in our very common cultural model of unreflexive repetition. People talking about books they haven't read, music and composers they haven't listened, and overall taking part of a mainstream opinion, favorable or not, of issues they will never really dig into. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeallen01 2,136 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Williams is just lazy copying all the greats of the past. Every time I hear the first note in one of his pieces, I can't stand listening to any more because I recognise that note from somewhere else. Every single instrument and note Williams writes has been used before. But he just reorganises the instruments and notes in a different order, thinking we wont notice. It disgusts me. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Didn't Williams acknowledge the influence of Korngold in his score for Star Wars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeallen01 2,136 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Just now, Stefancos said: Didn't Williams acknowledge the influence of Korngold in his score for Star Wars? Williams is the first composer. He is influenced by nothing. He influences himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Isn't it strange how a newspaper critic will drag up comparisons to King's Row, but they never afford the same scrutiny to other composers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Especially since the references to Korngold, and classical music were all deliberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeallen01 2,136 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Lucas basically told him to copy the Planets, so the core sound and style of Star Wars will always sound like the greats of classical music. It's inescapable. But one things for sure. Williams is better than those he is influenced by. Arpy and Taikomochi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 John Williams FUCK YEAH! Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 2 hours ago, RPurton said: Isn't it strange how a newspaper critic will drag up comparisons to King's Row, but they never afford the same scrutiny to other composers? Yes, and I'm sure he discovered the similarity for himself while listening to that fairly obscure score, and isn't just basing his argument on stuff he's read around the internet. That'd be bad journalism! 2 hours ago, leeallen01 said: But one things for sure. Williams is better than those he is influenced by. I wouldn't say that's always for sure. 3 hours ago, Scarpia said: I think these kind of 'comparisons' are made just in our very common cultural model of unreflexive repetition. People talking about books they haven't read, music and composers they haven't listened, and overall taking part of a mainstream opinion, favorable or not, of issues they will never really dig into. Exactly. John Williams as insubstantial plagiarist is just one of those opinions that's become commonplace with the 21st century dilettante. I'm sure those people annoy a lot of other niches by spreading ignorant bullshit about them. Scarpia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 As a general rule I have, if someone else(in this case, shitty internet videos) has to tell you something is plagiaristic/influenced by/etc., it shouldn't matter to you that it was. Part of Williams' brilliance is not just knowing the classics he references, but knowing when and how to implement them those references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,515 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 4 hours ago, RPurton said: Isn't it strange how a newspaper critic will drag up comparisons to King's Row, but they never afford the same scrutiny to other composers? It's actually a testament to how good a composer John Williams is. If Williams wrote like crap, nobody would care to scrutinize his scores. Btw, there's a portion of the 1978 Capital FM interview where Williams straight up talks about his pastiches. This is what he has to say: Quote Interviewer: It's interesting that you say that you were going for a "memory" type of score, because a lot of the pieces [in ANH] are almost pastiche. E.g. the Princess's theme is very much "Scheherezade" [Rimsky-Korsakov]. Were you conscious that you were doing pastiches? Williams: Yes, I was conscious that it was a pastiche - this was a very deliberate and calculated idea that we had. The music should be familiar in the sense-...not exactly familiar that you knew the tunes and the themes, but that the emotional line would be very direct... I: There were emotive triggers? JW: Exactly, that was exactly the idea. So the way I see it, Williams was going for a familiar type of sound. Poor guy now gets criticized for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 19, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2016 I love the handful of little solo clarinet moments sprinkled throughout this score, it's one of my favorite Williamsisms, the way he writes them. WHO IS WITH ME?! Arpy, Scarpia and leeallen01 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 6 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said: I love the handful of little solo clarinet moments sprinkled throughout this score, it's one of my favorite Williamsisms, the way he writes them. WHO IS WITH ME?! Moments in the beginning of Follow Me remind me of the "Family Portrait" from the Harry Potter Children's Suite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewya 360 Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 "His borrowings from classical music are actually much more overt than Morricone’s, and the list of outright steals in his latest Star Wars score is long. When Han Solo meets his renegade son, the sacred grandeur of Wagner’s Parsifal steals over the music. When we first meet the scavenger Rey, whizzing around the sand-dunes of Jakku, a folk-like theme appears with a vaguely Bohemian lilt. Towards the end, these echoes come thick and fast; the glorious other-worldly trumpets from Mahler’s 2nd Symphony as the Resistance pilots prepare for their final battle, and later, when Ren goes in search of Luke Skywalker, a touch of the Scottish seascape of Mendelssohn’s Fingal’s Cave. " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/what-to-watch/best-movie-soundtracks-star-wars/ I don't hear it, is it just me? Really, "steals"? Sounds way too far-fetched, doesn't it? Despite these comments he seems to prefer TFA to The Hateful Eight and said it really ought to be a shoe-in. It is just that these comments are tiring for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Well, it's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,515 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Quote When Han Solo meets his renegade son, the sacred grandeur of Wagner’s Parsifal steals over the music. Huh? If you're going to be that deliberately vague, the 'sacred grandeur of Parsifal' steals over all film score elegies. The quintal/quartal harmonies in Torn Apart owe little to Wagner. Scarpia and Dixon Hill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Sharky said: Huh? If you're going to be that deliberately vague, the 'sacred grandeur of Parsifal' steals over all film score elegies. The quintal/quartal harmonies in Torn Apart owe little to Wagner. Wow, what silliness from that reviewer. Yes, Wagner was very influential since he was a dramatist but what a stretch to say this opening... And torn apart are similar beyond very loose similarities. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Lewya said: "His borrowings from classical music are actually much more overt than Morricone’s, and the list of outright steals in his latest Star Wars score is long. When Han Solo meets his renegade son, the sacred grandeur of Wagner’s Parsifal steals over the music. When we first meet the scavenger Rey, whizzing around the sand-dunes of Jakku, a folk-like theme appears with a vaguely Bohemian lilt. Towards the end, these echoes come thick and fast; the glorious other-worldly trumpets from Mahler’s 2nd Symphony as the Resistance pilots prepare for their final battle, and later, when Ren goes in search of Luke Skywalker, a touch of the Scottish seascape of Mendelssohn’s Fingal’s Cave. " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/what-to-watch/best-movie-soundtracks-star-wars/ I don't hear it, is it just me? Really, "steals"? Sounds way too far-fetched, doesn't it? Despite these comments he seems to prefer TFA to The Hateful Eight and said it really ought to be a shoe-in. It is just that these comments are tiring for me. Yes, "steals" is definitely too much. Surely Williams is evoking (consciously or not) some collective musical memory that we can surely trace back to Wagner, Mendelssohn, Dvòrak and Mahler, but he does it as usual using his own deeply personal vocabulary, not by doing "outright steals". The article does make some very good points overall, however, and in the end it's very complimentary of Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 "Steals"? What a cunt! Rubbish article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Is it always necessary to use harsh words every single time? Sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Fuck yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, TownerFan said: Is it always necessary to use harsh words every single time? Sigh... Agreed! It's very rude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think most of these detractors who like to inject words "steal" and "borrow" into otherwise complimentary articles seem to mix allusion and influence of the grand orchestral repertoire that Williams' writing and musical language undoubtedly reflects with stealing as his music evokes the same feeling or mood as some of these pieces e.g. the above article mentions. It is odd how gleefully they grasp at these impressions and near-similiraties (often tenuous) and blow them often out of proportion and make it out as if Williams has copied this material note-for-note, which certainly isn't the case. And I still think it is a very backhanded compliment to babble on and on about borrowing and then say "Yeah he is still a great guy you know. But remember, he steals." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Williams stole or borrowed more from himself when composing TFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Well theft is a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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