Han Solo and the Princess conspiracy?

[King Mark 3,713]

 

 

Williams never performed it

Calls Across the Stars the first love theme of the saga

"Now, unfortunately, this version is no more available: we performed right before it was taken off the market "for revision". " Is Williams trying to cover up it's existance?

 

 

[bespinGPT 8,767]

You are perfectly right... This theme is a great forgotten one!

 

I'm afraid we'll have to wait an album called "The John Williams & Georges Lucas Collaboration"!

 

I stopped you video after 1 minute... that's an awefull interpretation.

 

My reference for the concert version is still the Charles Gerhardt version.
 

 

 

[crumbs 14,870]

Gotta wonder if he'd even remember the theme if JJ hadn't reminded him for TFA!

[John Dutton 7,378]

The Han Solo and the Princess theme, unfortunately, has been suppressed by the holy office in Rome.

[Sandor 843]

I think this theory would really have some legs if Williams didn't use it in TFA, but he did so yeah................

[bespinGPT 8,767]

1 hour ago, Rose Dawson said:

The Han Solo and the Princess theme, unfortunately, has been suppressed by the holy office in Rome.

 

Let's wait for Vatican III, nothing is confirmed yet!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

10 hours ago, Sandor said:

I think this theory would really have some legs if Williams didn't use it in TFA, but he did so yeah................

 

JJ demanded it, thats all.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

And Johnny stood their baffled, looking at the sheet music with the theme he wrote decades ago. No memory of it has remained with him.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Marian Schedenig 9,042]

5 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

JJ demanded it, thats all.

 

And that's why Williams integrated it so subtly that nobody noticed it at first.

[Tom 5,137]

I am a bit confused on the nature of the conspiracy.  There are plenty of concert versions Williams has pulled from the public domain over the years.  Does the conspiracy extend to all of them? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Yes!

[pete 970]

On 2/18/2017 at 2:11 PM, king mark said:

"Now, unfortunately, this version is no more available: we performed right before it was taken off the market "for revision".

 

Here's a crazy theory: maybe "for revision" means Williams is revising it?  

[aj_vader 568]

There is a concert version of Han Solo and The Princess by the London Symphony Orchestra. 

 

 

 

[karelm 3,076]

8 hours ago, aj_vader said:

There is a concert version of Han Solo and The Princess by the London Symphony Orchestra. 

 

 

 

That was actually a very interesting arrangement of the Han Solo and The Princess theme.  The rest of the suite is lackluster and proves what is most important is the composer/conductor rather than the orchestra.  LSO has never sounded so amateur in the rest of the works and a mediocre mix as well.  For example, in the Princess Leia theme, the original OST has a deeply yearning quality since the high note of every phrase is held much longer than here.  That must have been a direction from JW since it happens regardless of what the instrumentation is and really makes the theme feel so much more longing in a Tristan und Isolde way which makes since since JW thought of this as sort of a Vertigo longing and Herrmann used Tristan und Isolde as his model for that theme.  And what's with the trumpets being so far left in the mix?  It just feels cheep.  I assume this is an old recording that was made to cheaply capitalize on the unexpected success of SW without any real attention to detail or love.  BUT, the Han Solo and the Princess was interesting in the way they interwove the Leia theme. 

[King Mark 3,713]

what?

 

it's a great concert version. Are you talking strictly about the performance?

[DominicCobb 195]

Isn't the reason JW thought "Across the Stars" was the first love theme because he considers "Han Solo and the Princess" to just be Han's theme?

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Indeed! It doesnt fit a scoundrel at all.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

And thats why he never performed it in concert!

[KK 3,308]

Han needed Howard Shore!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

And Pope!

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[TownerFan 5,172]

On ‎18‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 6:11 AM, king mark said:

Williams never performed it

Calls Across the Stars the first love theme of the saga

"Now, unfortunately, this version is no more available: we performed right before it was taken off the market "for revision". " Is Williams trying to cover up it's existance?

 

It's not a conspiracy, nor Williams trying to cover up anything. It's a simple matter of publishing rights. The original 5-movement TESB Concert Suite as well as the 1978 Star Wars Symphonic Suite and the 4-movement ROTJ concert suite were originally published by Warner/Chappell, which is now being administered/licensed internationally by Faber Music. Warner/Chappell had the three original Star Wars concert suites available for rental in their catalogue, but in 2015 these three suites were recalled/withdrew from their catalogue by Lucasfilm (that Italian performance is indeed the last public one). It's also possible that Williams and his management want to have all Star Wars music under a single publishing umbrella (Hal Leonard, which is the de facto official Williams publisher of his concert and film works for concert performance), so let's hope they will be available again in the future for anyone who wants to perform the original suites.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Illuminati, man!

[Will 2,235]

11 hours ago, DominicCobb said:

Isn't the reason JW thought "Across the Stars" was the first love theme because he considers "Han Solo and the Princess" to just be Han's theme?

 

Didn't he actually call it that - "Han's theme" - in a pre-TFA interview? (Tavis Smiley, I think?)

 

8 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Isn't it a tad too romantic to be just Han's theme, though?

 

Seems so, although, then again, Han is a pretty romantic character. 

[Disco Stu 15,501]

I mean, it's called "Han Solo and the Princess" and the concert arrangement includes a quote of Leia's theme so calling it just Han's theme is a stretch.

 

EDIT:

Although now I think about it, I suppose you could argue that the main melody of that arrangement is Han's theme and the quote of Leia's theme is the "and the Princess" part. It's all splitting hairs anyway, beautiful melody.

[King Mark 3,713]

41 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I mean, it's called "Han Solo and the Princess" and the concert arrangement includes a quote of Leia's theme so calling it just Han's theme is a stretch.

 

 

 it's like how the "rebel fanfare" was a theme for the Empire and become one for the rebels

[Will 2,235]

I always try to remember in instances like these what a member here (Marcus?) said about Williams' thematic references:

 

"Don't take them too literally."

 

Anyway, note what Williams said in this Tavis Smiley interview (I found the quote I mentioned earlier):

 

Quote

Princess Leia's theme is in because Carrie comes back as Princess Leia, having grown her many years. And Harrison's character of Han has a... [breaks off]

 

https://youtu.be/fIfWfengo3E?t=1014

 

3 minutes ago, king mark said:

 it's like how the "rebel fanfare" was a theme for the Empire and become one for the rebels

 

What?

 

------------

 

Can anyone give me an example of where Williams had said Across the Stars was the first love theme, or anything else to indicate he really views this as just Han's theme?

[aj_vader 568]

15 hours ago, karelm said:

That was actually a very interesting arrangement of the Han Solo and The Princess theme.  The rest of the suite is lackluster and proves what is most important is the composer/conductor rather than the orchestra.  LSO has never sounded so amateur in the rest of the works and a mediocre mix as well.  For example, in the Princess Leia theme, the original OST has a deeply yearning quality since the high note of every phrase is held much longer than here.  That must have been a direction from JW since it happens regardless of what the instrumentation is and really makes the theme feel so much more longing in a Tristan und Isolde way which makes since since JW thought of this as sort of a Vertigo longing and Herrmann used Tristan und Isolde as his model for that theme.  And what's with the trumpets being so far left in the mix?  It just feels cheep.  I assume this is an old recording that was made to cheaply capitalize on the unexpected success of SW without any real attention to detail or love.  BUT, the Han Solo and the Princess was interesting in the way they interwove the Leia theme. 

I only ever dig the disc out for Han and Leia's Theme, the Brass on The Imperial March and Main Title are awful. It is credited as the LSO on the Linear notes on the Disc, but It really doesn't sound like the LSO. Terrible recording. 

[DominicCobb 195]

7 hours ago, Will said:

 

Didn't he actually call it that - "Han's theme" - in a pre-TFA interview? (Tavis Smiley, I think?)

 

I don't know where but I seem to remember him calling it that.

 

7 hours ago, Will said:

 

Seems so, although, then again, Han is a pretty romantic character. 

 

I personally think the idea that it's a theme just for Han is pretty ridiculous because there's basically nothing in the films that support that.

[Will 2,235]

3 minutes ago, DominicCobb said:

 

I don't know where but I seem to remember him calling it that.

 

 

I personally think the idea that it's a theme just for Han is pretty ridiculous because there's basically nothing in the films that support that.

 

See above. I found the exact spot where he seems to refer to it as Han's theme. 

 

-----------

 

Also, I'll bump what I said earlier:

 

Can anyone give me an example of where Williams had said Across the Stars was the first love theme, or anything else to indicate he really views this as just Han's theme?

[karelm 3,076]

7 hours ago, aj_vader said:

I only ever dig the disc out for Han and Leia's Theme, the Brass on The Imperial March and Main Title are awful. It is credited as the LSO on the Linear notes on the Disc, but It really doesn't sound like the LSO. Terrible recording. 

Terrible interpretation too.  As if they never heard this music before. But I blame the conductor for that. 

[ricsim88 256]

On 2017-02-18 at 7:38 AM, Bespin said:

You are perfectly right... This theme is a great forgotten one!

 

I'm afraid we'll have to wait an album called "The John Williams & Georges Lucas Collaboration"!

 

I stopped you video after 1 minute... that's an awefull interpretation.

 

My reference for the concert version is still the Charles Gerhardt version.
 

 

 

Thanks for reminding me of that version. Will have to load it on iPad. 

[TownerFan 5,172]

16 hours ago, Will said:

I always try to remember in instances like these what a member here (Marcus?) said about Williams' thematic references:

 

"Don't take them too literally."

 

To Marcus' always wise words, I'd also add "Don't take everything Williams said in interviews too literally". In a lot of cases, he speaks in broad terms because he likely has to make an effort to recall about details from the past. He's always focused on the present. He lives within the craft of music-making. The fact people here still obsess about the idea that Williams forgot he wrote Han and Leia's love theme is just fandom obsession.

 

Quote

Can anyone give me an example of where Williams had said Across the Stars was the first love theme, or anything else to indicate he really views this as just Han's theme?

 

It's a moment during a pause of the Ep2 recording session, where JW and Lucas are in the booth and Williams says: "Five movies, a huge glossary of themes... and we still had no love theme!" (at 3:05)

 

 

It could be that in his mind "Across the Stars" was something more akin to a classic 1940s Hollywood love theme than the previous Star Wars love theme incarnations. Or simply he tends to leave behind details and minutiae about this or that theme once he's finished with a film. It may look absurd to us, but it's completely normal from the artist's point of view. Perhaps he has never been too fond of Han and Leia's theme, or perhaps he thinks he did better in other occasions.

[artguy360 1,899]

For whatever reason, when I was younger I thought that JW meant a Love Theme meaning a musical idea for a love relationship that is fully explored in its own concert arrangement. I know that doesn't make any sense but I felt that JW thought of Han and Leia's theme as a motif but not a fully formed theme like Across the Stars or The Imperial March and Yoda's Theme in TESB. But again, that makes no sense. 

[Amer 2,237]

On 18/02/2017 at 4:38 PM, Bespin said:

You are perfectly right... This theme is a great forgotten one!

 

I'm afraid we'll have to wait an album called "The John Williams & Georges Lucas Collaboration"!

 

 

Actually, I was wondering about this.  Actually Williams needs to do update a comprehensive STAR WARS saga concert recordings as a new album. Sony could release their first STAR WARS TRILOGY  cd as disc one and Williams could either do a 2cd set or just one more to do all the new films. Ideally we should wait for Episode 8. Or Williams could do this after he does the 9th and final film from the saga in 2020 at the age of 88 years!

[bespinGPT 8,767]

5 minutes ago, azahid said:

 

Actually, I was wondering about this.  Actually Williams needs to do update a comprehensive STAR WARS saga concert recordings as a new album. Sony could release their first STAR WARS TRILOGY  cd as disc one and Williams could either do a 2cd set or just one more to do all the new films. Ideally we should wait for Episode 8. Or Williams could do this after he does the 9th and final film from the saga in 2020 at the age of 88 years!

 

If he lives up to 100, he'll have to rearrange the Star Wars Saga as 9 symphonies of 3-4 movements each...

 

If he doesn't do it himself, someone will do it someday!

 

I'm tired of hearing just the "Star Wars Main Theme" or "The Imperial March" in concert...

 

You want to program Star Wars music in concert... play a suite man.... But what titles?  It's why JW have to write Symphonies or Suites.

[Amer 2,237]

9 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

He have to rearrange the Star Wars Saga as 9 symphonies of 3-4 movements each...

He already has carved out the Suites that we are familiar with. Just needs to add to the corpus of the developing  saga. I'd love to hear 'Han Solo and The Princess' in it under his own baton.

 

Hoping that he is in great shape to conduct it at that age. Most composers tend to take slower tempos of their prominent works during their late years. But Im surprised Williams still writes and conducts the orchestra with the same passion and gusto. The recent Williams Celebration dvd concert where he did a rather great energetic and rousing performance of the Imperial March. But Dudamel too is a great conductor. Him coming on board to Episode VII may seem like a prep that [ Williams] may relegate all his conducting duties to him. Which is plausible and fine with me. I suspect he may actually do more conducting for Episode VIII. And with the upcoming Williams Boston Pops Concerts- it may even have Keith Lockhart come on board as well.

[bespinGPT 8,767]

13 minutes ago, azahid said:

He already has carved out the Suites that we are familiar with. Just needs to add to the corpus of the developing  saga. I'd love to hear 'Han Solo and The Princess' in it under his own baton.

 

You are right the suite exists, but no conductor play them.  You have to think about a new trick to make the titles an un-breakable whole. The Suite needs an original name, that will make it unbreakable (a little bit like Escapades).

 

Nobody plays only the last movement of the 9th of Beethoven. I mean, you play all or you play nothing.

 

What's the official Suite for the old Trilogy?

 

1-Star Wars Main Title

2-Princess Leia Theme

3-The Imperial March

4-Yoda's Theme

5-Throne Room and Finale

 

?

[Amer 2,237]

5 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

 

What's th official Suite for the old Trilogy?

 

1-Star Wars Main Title

2-Princess Leia Theme

3-The Imperial March

4-Yoda's Theme

5-Throne Room and Finale

 

?

 

The John Williams Conducts John Williams: THE STAR WARS TRILOGY is pretty much it.

[bespinGPT 8,767]

5 minutes ago, azahid said:

 

The John Williams Conducts John Williams: THE STAR WARS TRILOGY is pretty much it.

 

I'm talking about the sheet music.  That's the "Official" Star Wars Suite.

 

It's what I'm talked about, it has never been "clear", no conductor plays or record that Suite.

 

 

[Amer 2,237]

Well he usually plays these very cues in most of his recent concert performances. The only one missing from this suite  is 'The Asteroid Field' 

[bespinGPT 8,767]

12 minutes ago, azahid said:

Well he usually plays these very cues in most of his recent concert performances. The only one missing from this suite  is 'The Asteroid Field' 

 

I don't care what JW plays in concert. Yes indeed... he even don't play his own Suites... Well, of course.

 

But I talk about what the other conductors around the world plays.. and will play when JW is gone.

 

There's no cue from Jedi in this Suite! Where's Luke and Leia?

 

It simply doesn't work.

[TownerFan 5,172]

As I said a few posts before, the original trilogy suites have been recalled because they were licensed by a different publisher. However, for the sake of clarity, let's recap the Star Wars concert suites material:

 

Wiliams prepared multi-movement suites from almost all films (with the exception of EpII and III).

 

The original Star Wars Symphonic Suite that Williams prepared in 1977 (for Zubin Mehta and the LA PHil) was comprised of:

 

I. Main Theme

II. The Little People

III. Leia's Theme

IV. Here They Come!

V. The Battle

VI. Throne Room and Finale

 

This suite was performed often by JW himself and by many orchestras around the world, as it was made publicly available through Fox Music after the huge success of the film. It has also been recorded by Zubin Mehta and the La Phil and by Charles Gerhardt and the National Philharmonic.

 

In 1980 he prepared a similar suite of themes from Empire:

 

I. The Imperial March

II. Han Solo and the Princess

III. The Asteroid Field

IV. Yoda's Theme

V. Finale

 

This has been available for rental only for many years (curiously, only in handwritten manuscript), but performed less often than Star Wars. Charles Gerhardt recorded it (alongside several other cues from the score) with the NPO.

 

In 1983 Williams did the same for Jedi:

 

I. Jabba the Hutt

II. Parade of the Ewoks

III. Luke and Leia

IV. The Forest Battle

 

As for the TESB Suite, this was available for rental only through several licensors (again, only on handwritten manuscripts). The suite was recorded by JW himself in 1983 on the "Out of this World" album with the Boston Pops. Charles Gerhardt also recorded it (adding other pieces as well like he did for TESB) with the NPO.

 

In 1997, on the occasion of the Special Editions, JW put out a new suite labeled "Star Wars: Suite for Orchestra", which is what is currently available and usually performed since then by orchestras around the world.

 

I. Main Theme (SW)

II. Princess Leia's Theme (SW)

III. Imperial March (TESB)

IV. Yoda's Theme (TESB)

V. Throne Room and Finale (SW)

 

As I said before, the issue with the original suites lies with the publishing rights, hence why since at least 1999 they have been much less performed and licensed (I guess there always was a sort of conflict on the publishing rights of those). However, a few years ago Hal Leonard finally published "Music from the Star Wars Saga", which is essentially a selection of pieces taken from the original trilogy concert suites:

 

I. The Asteroid Field

II. Parade of the Ewoks

III. Cantina Band

IV. Here They Come

V. Luke and Leia

VI. The Forest Battle

 

In 1999, he prepared a concert suite from The Phantom Menace, following the same pattern of the previous ones:

 

I. Anakin's Theme

II. The Flag Parade

III. The Adventures of Jar Jar

IV. Duel of the Fates

 

The suite was recorded in 1999 by Frederic Talgorn and the Royal Scottish Orchestra for Varèse Sarabande.

 

JW didn't do suites from EpII and III, he only prepared "Across the Stars" and "Battle of the Heroes" for concert performance. In 2015, he prepared a 4-movement concert suite from The Force Awakens:

 

I. March of the Resistance

II. Rey's Theme

III. Scherzo for X-Wings

IV. The Jedi Steps and Finale (with optional separate piece just for "The Jedi Steps")

 

Hope this clarifies doubts.

 

(edited original post to add some more details)

[bespinGPT 8,767]

I know that suites exists.

 

But we talk about the fact that nobody plays them in concert, or in this order... respecting the "Suite" idea... even not JW himself.

 

And the link with this thread, is that no one of these Suites contains "Han Solo and The Princess".  That's another error.

 

Write symphonies... someone.

 

I wait...

[TownerFan 5,172]

Again, the original trilogy suites can't be performed now. They have been recalled.

 

What is officially available from Hal Leonard now is (see details above):

- "Star Wars: Suite for Orchestra"

- "Music from the Star Wars Saga"

- "Suite from The Phantom Menace"

- two pieces from EpII and III (Across the Stars and Battle of the Heroes) 

- "Suite from The Force Awakens" 

 

It's almost 2 hours of music, enough material to make a full concert program. I don't say it couldn't be better, I'm only stating facts.

[aj_vader 568]

3 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

If he lives up to 100, he'll have to rearrange the Star Wars Saga as 9 symphonies of 3-4 movements each...

 

If he doesn't do it himself, someone will do it someday!

 

I'm tired of hearing just the "Star Wars Main Theme" or "The Imperial March" in concert...

 

You want to program Star Wars music in concert... play a suite man.... But what titles?  It's why JW have to write Symphonies or Suites.

 

Imagine he did something like the Lord of the Rings Symphony in 6 Movements!