Star Wars Disenchantment

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

I didn't get into slashers as much until around high school. Until then, I preferred non-human killers (Freddy Krueger was sort of the exception). 

[Jurassic Shark 12,102]

15 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

the conveyor belt 

 

That cue from AotC is so underwhelming.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That cue from AotC is so underwhelming.

 

I'm so confused! Oh I'm scrap... it's a NIGHTMARRRRE!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

28 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That cue from AotC is so underwhelming.

 

This is an objectively wrong statement, and the truth is held by a majority of the fans.

[Chen G. 3,958]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

The sequel trilogy is without direction.

 

Newsflash: Star Wars as a series was always without direction.

 

In 1977, George Lucas had no concept of what Empire Strikes Back turned out to be; If he had an idea of what Return of the Jedi was going to be in 1980, it was in mere broadstrokes: like having a confrontation with the emperor, having Luke's sister present herself, etcetra. The same is true of his prequels in 1983. The prequel trilogy itself is perhaps the one to be most fully drawn in the writer/director's mind from the outset, but again only in broad strokes.

 

In terms of realizing those concept, too, George Lucas isn't credited as director nor screenwriter on Empire Strikes Back, and he merely co-wrote and produced Return of the Jedi.

 

I will say, however,

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Luke succeed in turning his father back to the Light Side... who, because of the love for his son - not pity - single-handedly defeated the Emperor. The Skywalkers won. What a superb ending to the trilogy.

 

That's correct, and that's why the entire concept of Episodes VII to IX is inherently flawed, regardless of their execution: the story of Star Wars has been told and came to its conclusion.

 

However, when I'm looking at the Disney films as individual works of cinema? Its nothing too bad, especially the core films (the sequel trilogy)

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Didn't George Lucas direct bits and bobs of RotJ himself?

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah, the Ewok shite.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

3 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Didn't George Lucas direct tits and boobs of RotJ himself?

Sure did! Can't blame him though.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Copped a feel, didn't he?

 

#metoo

[Chen G. 3,958]

22 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Didn't George Lucas direct bits and bobs of RotJ himself?

 

If he did, than that would be the equivalent of a glorified second-unit director.

 

Point is, you can't call Return of the Jedi "a George Lucas film", which is to say nothing of Empire Strikes Back. Stylistically, that film is probably more removed from the original Star Wars than The Last Jedi is from The Force Awakens. It just looks and feels completely different.

 

Now, I can accept that a lack of stylistic uniformity can read to some (probably to our very own @Mattris, as well) as a continuity issue. But its disingenuous to say that the sequel trilogy is outright bad because they're "winging it" plot-wise from film to film, or because it isn't stylistically uniform, pretending that the original sextet was either of these two things, which it clearly was not.

 

Really, that's how almost all Hollywood film trilogies turn out.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Star Wars and Empire feel more like Gary Kurtz films.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

42 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Point is, you can't call Return of the Jedi "a George Lucas film", which is to say nothing of Empire Strikes Back. Stylistically, that film is probably more removed from the original Star Wars than The Last Jedi is from The Force Awakens. It just looks and feels completely different.

 

But when I watch ROTJ, which I will rarely do now, all I see is George Lucas.

[Mattris 416]

49 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

.. its disingenuous to say that the sequel trilogy is outright bad because they're "winging it" plot-wise from film to film, or because it isn't stylistically uniform, pretending that the original sextet was either of these two things, which it clearly was not.

 

I did not say that. TLJ is bad for the dozens and dozens of specific issues I listed... few of which anyone has explained are unfounded. The sequel trilogy rests on the shoulders of Episode 9.

 

6 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

But when I watch ROTJ, which I will rarely do now, all I see is George Lucas.

 

When I watch ROTJ, all I see (and hear) is awesomeness!

 

Stefancos, will you admit that I corrected you regarding Luke in the OT:

 

In TESB, Luke had minimal training and wasn't a Jedi yet. He was defeated by Vader - not the Dark Side itself.

 

In ROTJ, Luke was a more experienced Jedi trainee who tapped into his anger to defeat Darth Vader, who let's be honest, could have killed Luke at any time by using the Force to literally crush him. But Luke sensed the good in him and knew that he stood a chance to save his father. He succeeded and earned the rank of Jedi Knight. Vader (Anakin Skywalker) then defeated the Emperor, who again, was a wielder of the Dark Side - not the Dark Side itself.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Exactly! Luke, as a Jedi did not have the strength to face the defeat the Dark Side. He only managed to turn his father.

He must have realized he wouldnt be strong enough to defeat Kylo Ren when he sensed the Dark Side in him, and in a moment of weakness tried to kill him. 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,958]

47 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The sequel trilogy rests on the shoulders of Episode 9.

 

That's true enough.

 

But than, that's always true for the third installment of a trilogy: its the climax of the story, and every story is defined by the way it ends.

 

47 minutes ago, Mattris said:

When I watch ROTJ, all I see (and hear) is awesomeness!

 

A....never mind.

 

Suffice to say, I'm not a fan of The Last Jedi, but its probably the better film out of the two.

[Nick1Ø66 4,728]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

When I watch ROTJ, all I see (and hear) is awesomeness!

 

Yeah...no.

 

The only thing ROTJ has going for it is the Luke/Vader/Emperor stuff and the score. That, and nostalgia. It's part of the OT and features beloved characters, but otherwise I think TFA, Rogue One and Solo are better movies. I think in terms of pure filmmaking even TLJ (which I don't like) is better. And even with its flaws ROTS is a more satisfying film.

 

I'll concede that ROTJ, like most films, is better than Episodes I & II.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

25 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Suffice to say, I'm not a fan of The Last Jedi, but its probably the better film out of the two.

 

It's the more ambitious of the two.

[Chen G. 3,958]

14 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

The only thing ROTJ has going for it is the Luke/Vader/Emperor stuff and the score. That, and nostalgia. It's part of the OT and features beloved characters, but otherwise I think TFA, Rogue One and Solo are better movies. I think in terms of pure filmmaking even TLJ (which I don't like) is better. And even with its flaws ROTS is a more satisfying film.

  

I'll concede that ROTJ, like most films, is better than Episodes I & II.

 

This.

 

I didn't see Return of the Jedi too many times, so I'd have to rewatch it to really compare to Revenge of the Sith or Rogue One, but it seems about right.

 

And yes, its better than The Phantom Menace overall, but I would say - the action setpieces in the latter are better, which in the action-adventure genre must count for something.

 

Really, the only part of Return of the Jedi that really, really works, is the climax of the Luke and Vader storyline: just the  throwing down of the emperor, the removal of the mask and the pyre. That's it, for me.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Exactly! Luke, as a Jedi did not have the strength to face the defeat the Dark Side. He only managed to turn his father.

He must have realized he wouldnt be strong enough to defeat Kylo Ren when he sensed the Dark Side in him, and in a moment of weakness tried to kill him. 

 

Luke's mind/heart probe foretold the awful things (he felt) that Ben would be responsible for. But it seems his "moment of weakness" ("pure instinct", as he put it) was a self-fulfilling prophecy, as Luke's actions that night caused Ben to snap... and become Kylo Ren, apprentice to Snoke. Though, obviously Luke didn't try to kill him.

 

'Defeating the Dark Side' is not something that has been shown possible in all of Star Wars... although Clone Wars expanded the lore with the realm of Mortis, the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force. This mysterious world was home to a trio of beings that were able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy could: the son and daughter provided balance to the Force, a balance maintained and channeled through their Father. Anakin, Obi-wan, and Asohka (Anakin's apprentice) went there and... things went down (no spoilers). Check out the episode or read the stuff from the official Star Wars website (linked above).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Mattris said:

Luke's mind/heart probe foretold the awful things (he felt) that Kylo would be responsible for. But it seems his "moment of weakness" ("pure instinct", as he put it) was a self-fulfilling prophecy, as Luke's actions that night caused Ben to snap... and become Kylo Ren, apprentice to Snoke. Though, obviously Luke didn't try to kill him.

 

See! You're starting to get it! Well done.

[Holko 9,539]

I didn't even think about it as the overplayed archetypical self-fulfilling prophecy until now. It's there at its core, but goes down in seconds instead of dragging it out for decades as usual, and creates the villain instead of the hero. Thanks, Mattriss, that was actually a good one.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I already got that one!

[Demodex 557]

@Mattris, if you haven't even read any of the other threads regarding the movie I don't see why I should have to put in so much effort to tell someone so disinterested why I liked it.

 

I've told you enough.  I loved the characters, the action, the humor, and the surprise at the end.  I've read what you don't like about it and I told you I disagree.  Nuff said.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Matriss spends all his time here talking about something he hates.

 

Internet conversation in the Trump era!

[Chen G. 3,958]

10 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I loved the characters, the action, the humor

 

You did?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

 

Luke sucking the teat was great! Its very Lucas.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's better than everything.

[Demodex 557]

Ok, it certainly could have done without the milking scene. It's not a flawless film. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's part of the demythification of Luke in the early part of the film. Its vital.

 

 

[Holko 9,539]

It's Luke trying to disgust Rey away, look at his face. We are also disgusted as the audience, and getting disillusioned alongside her.

 

I count this in the same category as Rey's stilted delivery of "we need you because Kylo Ren is strong with the Dark Side of the Force" and Willie's screaming being annoying. They're disgusing/bad/annoying because they're supposed to be that!

[Chen G. 3,958]

3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It's part of the demythification of Luke in the early part of the film.

 

Its part of the demythification of Star Wars, in general.

 

But too often the humor in the film is pushing the bounderies, I find. 

 

This may be overstating the point, but it is a valid point nonetheless:

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Childish humour is incredibly Lucasfilm!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

What was wrong with the funny bits in the movie?

[Demodex 557]

It was better than most of the attempts at humor in the prequels. Those movies were just unintentionally funny. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

How could they be unintentionally funny if they were intended to be funny?

[Holko 9,539]

Ask Tommy Wiseau.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Is he that dude with the long hair?

[Jurassic Shark 12,102]

No, that's Qui-Gon Jin.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Well who's the dude with the metal face?

[SteveMc 2,674]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

I don't give a flying flip about a director "fulfilling an artistic vision". I just want a great Star Wars movie!

You can't have the second without the first. 

(You can have the first without the second, though.)  

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

Luke sucking the teat was great! Its very Lucas.

 

Frankly I don't think Lucas would've had the cojones.

 

Return of the Jedi was my favorite as a kid because I watched a given Star Wars movie based on its climate and color palette, and I loved the sunniness and earthiness of Return of the Jedi. 

 

But I also loved Attack of the Clones because of the rain, so it wasn't the best barometer of quality.

 

I cannot watch Return of the Jedi as an adult.

[John 2,032]

Return of the Jedi is a fine film. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's okay.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

The Prequels are everything.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

When's the last time all of us have watched the originals? I think, in full, it's been about six years for me. I don't know the next time I'll ever watch them.

[Demodex 557]

It's been awhile for me. I've been watching TFA and TLJ instead. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Another thread title change?

[Not Mr. Big 4,643]

7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That cue from AotC is so underwhelming.

It's fine.