Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

On 03/02/2024 at 12:18 PM, JTW said:

No story HAS TO continue, unless its creator decides it should. Only a moron would think that he knows more about a story than its creator. 
Star Wars continued because George Lucas wanted it to, not because it had to. 

 

Wrong. A story must continue if it's not finished. Assuming that the story was over after the IV-VI characters learned nothing of significance beyond the failures of the previous generation (I-III) - is quite naive. 'The good guys killed the bad guys and will make a better Jedi Order and Republic this time.'

 

As they say, doing the same thing but expecting different results is the definition of insanity. The sequel trilogy showed that history repeated itself, as it will once again...

 

On 03/02/2024 at 12:28 PM, A. A. Ron said:

So you’re saying that all of us are unreasonable except you. Well that’s both classy and compelling!

 

Most here are being at least two of the following: unreasonable, lazy, gullible

 

On 03/02/2024 at 12:53 PM, Datameister said:

Although … to be completely fair … I admit I never made the connection between Kylo's theme and the Emperor's until he mentioned it. The first four notes of the former are identical to a bit near the end of the latter. It's a cool link.

 

The odds, as I see them:

 

• 30% chance this was an intentional choice
• 8% chance JW did it because he'd been told the Emperor might later be returning
• 4% chance Mattris actually believes that Lucasfilm is engaged in a decades-long benevolent scheme to mislead and disappoint fans so they can be blown away by a fourth trilogy that was partially shot and scored with TROS
• 0.00001% chance that Lucasfilm actually is

 

It's actually five notes... and not the only connection I made among these themes, which are interlinked in multiple ways, obvious to anyone with musical inclination. It's clear to me that these connections are 100% intentional by JW because he was told of the characters' relatedness.

 

These musical connections are supported by the literal evidence from the story itself, excerpts that I posted years ago that date back to the OT. What reason(s) do you have to not increase your odds?

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

15 minutes ago, Datameister said:

0.00001% chance that Lucasfilm actually is

 

I'm pretty sure Lucasfilm exists. 

[Tallguy 3,401]

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Mind you, in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, all the indication is Yoda is a native of Dagobah. 

 

Why? Where? How? I might never have pictured the prequels but I never thought he was from there. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

Yeah. Even seeing those films the first time, it never once thought that Yoda was actually from Dagaboh. 

 

Not that it's unreasonable to assume so, or that Lucas didn't intend it. It's just not something that really occurred to me. I always assumed he was from some place else.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, I didn't have any particular sense of Yoda being from Dagobah, any more than I had a sense that Obi-wan was from Tatooine. Not that that's an invalid assumption to have made at the time; it's just not how I took it. Interesting!

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

57 minutes ago, Datameister said:

The odds, as I see them:

• 4% chance Mattris actually believes that Lucasfilm is engaged in a decades-long benevolent scheme to mislead and disappoint fans so they can be blown away by a fourth trilogy that was partially shot and scored with TROS

I think you are hugely underestimating the human capacity to believe utter nonsense.

[Mattris 416]

Irony.

[Datameister 2,044]

46 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

I think you are hugely underestimating the human capacity to believe utter nonsense.

 

You could be right. Lord knows I've done that before. But I dunno, I get real strong troll vibes. Always have. I mean, how could anyone argue with a straight face that the code name Trixie is evidence of an Episode X? As if it's possible to construct a word that contains "IX" without including "X"? C'mon. 🤣

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Yeah. Even seeing those films the first time, it never once thought that Yoda was actually from Dagaboh. 

 

Not that it's unreasonable to assume so, or that Lucas didn't intend it. It's just not something that really occurred to me. I always assumed he was from some place else.

Hide from the Sith/Empire on his home planet? I guess the logic for that would be: "They wouldn't think I'm dumb enough to hide here."
 

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Hide from the Sith/Empire on his home planet? I guess the logic for that would be: "They wouldn't think I'm dumb enough to hide here."
 

 

Yeah, it's hard to imagine, but it wasn't really clear Yoda was in hiding pre-prequels. 

[enderdrag64 624]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

 

Why? Where? How? I might never have pictured the prequels but I never thought he was from there. 

Yeah I was thinking this too. I think it's pretty heavily implied that he isn't from there actually. If the Jedi were once guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, and Yoda is 900 years old, then he must've been around for the height of the Jedi, and therefore would almost certainly not have been on Dagobah. Unless we're to believe that in the height of the Jedi Order all the prospective students were sent to Dagobah one at a time to seek Yoda, which seems very unlikely

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Hide from the Sith/Empire on his home planet? I guess the logic for that would be: "They wouldn't think I'm dumb enough to hide here."

Why not, they took Luke to Anakin’s family, apparently thinking he’d be safe with them for some reason. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

22 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

Yeah I was thinking this too. I think it's pretty heavily implied that he isn't from there actually. If the Jedi were once guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, and Yoda is 900 years old, then he must've been around for the height of the Jedi, and therefore would almost certainly not have been on Dagobah. Unless we're to believe that in the height of the Jedi Order all the prospective students were sent to Dagobah one at a time to seek Yoda, which seems very unlikely

I think you’re making all sorts of assumptions here. Sure, it's reasonable to think that Yoda has traveled to other places, but there's no reason to assume just from the OT that he isn't from Dagobah. Before the Empire, there could have been Jedi all over the galaxy just chilling on their homeworlds waiting for trouble to come along. There’s certainly a stereotype of wizards in fiction keeping to themselves and basically just living in a hut until the hero needs to go to them for advice or something.

[Tallguy 3,401]

35 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

but there's no reason to assume just from the OT that he isn't from Dagobah

 

Except apparently nobody else lives there.

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 hours ago, Datameister said:

OAlthough … to be completely fair … I admit I never made the connection between Kylo's theme and the Emperor's until he mentioned it. The first four notes of the former are identical to a bit near the end of the latter. It's a cool link.

Well, I mean, they’re both bad guy/Sith music…they need to be similar.

 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

 

Except apparently nobody else lives there.

That’s the whole idea of the Don Juan ascetic/recluse type. In a lot of the conference meetings, Lucas speaks of Yoda not as a Jedi, but as a master that Jedi are then sent to. My memory was it crops up implicitly in the films themselves, but I can’t quite place it. It may have been more explicit in other drafts.

 

Ben also, it was always clear to me, was a native of Tatooine.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

51 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Except apparently nobody else lives there.

So? He’s the last of the extinct space wizards. And it’s a whole planet. There could be other Yodas on some other part of it. Kenobi lived in the middle of nowhere miles from anyone else too, but that didn’t make the population of Tatooine 0.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

"Massive life readings, though...  There's something alive down there."

[enderdrag64 624]

13 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

"Massive life readings, though...  There's something alive down there."

Trees are life 

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Well, I mean, they’re both bad guy/Sith music…they need to be similar.

 

This is not a case of two themes being "similar", Chen. I'd argue they're not even in the same vein. The Emperor's Theme is truly scary and brooding. Kylo's is more like an announcement.

 

Kylo's Theme also doesn't have that many notes to begin with. Of all the combinations of notes John Williams could have chosen for the relatively short 10-note theme, he decided to start it with five notes in a row  from THE EMPEROR'S THEME.  Anyone who acknowledges the skill of John Williams but assumes this connection wasn't intentional is in a state of denial, especially after Episode IX revealed that Palpatine had been seducing Ben Solo for his entire life.

 

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

So? He’s the last of the extinct space wizards. And it’s a whole planet. There could be other Yodas on some other part of it. Kenobi lived in the middle of nowhere miles from anyone else too, but that didn’t make the population of Tatooine 0.

 

You rationalize that there could have been other Yoda-like beings on Dagobah because Kenobi - the other secluded space wizard - also lived far from others?

[JTN 2,033]

33 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

Trees are life 

And that massive fish that eats, then spits out R2. 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

The Star Wars Saga ended with Return of the Jedi. 

Lucas only planned to continue it because of the money and because Disney wanted to. It's why they will keep making more movies ad infinitum. Money, nothing else.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

And that massive fish that eats, then spits out R2.

And don't forget the snakes and lizards borrowed from the local pet shop or zoo! I'm surprised Lucas didn't later try to replace them with more otherworldly CGI creatures.

 

 

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

other Yodas

Did they ever get around to naming his species?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

22 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Did they ever get around to naming his species?

No. I’ve heard rumors that Lucas actually prohibited giving them a name or really any specifics. No idea if that’s true or not.

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

You rationalize that there could have been other Yoda-like beings on Dagobah because Kenobi - the other secluded space wizard - also lived far from others?

Siggggggh. No Mattris, that doesn’t at all follow from what I said.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

The Star Wars Saga ended with Return of the Jedi. 

Lucas only planned to continue it because of the money and because Disney wanted to. It's why they will keep making more movies ad infinitum. Money, nothing else.

 

"If money is all that you ask for, that's what you'll receive."  ― Princess Leia

"Persistence without insight will lead to the same outcome."  ― The Mandalorian Armorer 

 

@JTW, you do know by now that everything you've been saying in response to me is an assumption, right?  If Star Wars was made for money, then why did George Lucas take such a small fee for directing his film? He could have produced Star Wars films throughout the 16 years between ROTJ and TPM. The logical conclusion is that he was more concerned about the story  and the technology that would be innovated to present it in the way he wanted.

 

To back up your assessment of Star Wars, let's summarize:

 

- You've presented no real evidence.

- You've shared no intriguing insight.

- You've stated no facts.

- You've quoted nothing from the films, their screenplays, novelizations, or the rest of the official Star Wars canon.

- You think Star Wars was primarily made for money and still is.

- You've interpreted every installment of the story as a toddler would and think it's a lame, unoriginal story. (With magic powers, good intentions, and violence, the good guys beat the bad guys. The End.)

- You've dismissed two full trilogies as part of the core story, if not entirely.

- You haven't acknowledged any of my evidence as intriguing... or my theories that make better sense of the grander story, some theories of which were confirmed in TROS.

- You haven't admitted that my story progression logic is 100% sound, especially after the prequels confirmed that the Jedi and Republic were ignorant and powerless to prevent their downfall... even though we knew they fell in the opening act of the original film.

 

How can you think you're right or anywhere close to the truth?  I hope it's not because there are many people who think like you. Pride and ignorance are never a good thing, especially when combined. My final statement before I sign off with you:

 

As much as I think you've gotten wrong about Star Wars, you are among its primary intended audience.

[Datameister 2,044]

Okay now I'm mystified. It doesn't affect anything, but @Mattris Kylo's theme only has nine notes, and it's the first four that are found in the Emperor's theme.

 

If we're in C minor: G F# C Eb G ... G F# C Eb

 

Where are you hearing another note?

[Faleel 5,357]

2 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Trees are life 

Slightly doubtful Luke would mistake trees, on his X-Wing sensors

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

20 minutes ago, Faleel said:

Slightly doubtful Luke would mistake trees, on his X-Wing sensors

It happened all the time in Star Trek. How many times did they send a landing party down to investigate "life form" readings and just find a bunch of trees and shrubbery...

 

 

Kirk: "Damn it! More trees and shrubbery!"

[Groovygoth666 670]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It happened all the time in Star Trek. How many times did they send a landing party down to investigate "life form" readings and just find a bunch of trees and shrubbery...

 

 

Kirk: "Damn it! More trees and shrubbery!"

[Mattris 416]

5 hours ago, Datameister said:

Okay now I'm mystified. It doesn't affect anything, but @Mattris Kylo's theme only has nine notes, and it's the first four that are found in the Emperor's theme.

 

If we're in C minor: G F# C Eb G ... G F# C Eb

 

Where are you hearing another note?

 

The establishing bass note is carried over from the Emperor's theme. In C minor, it would be a C.

[Datameister 2,044]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

The establishing bass note is carried over from the Emperor's theme. In C minor, it would be a C.

You're too much. 😂

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

8 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Did they ever get around to naming his species?

 

Green goblins.

[Chen G. 3,949]

11 hours ago, Mattris said:

This is not a case of two themes being "similar", Chen. I'd argue they're not even in the same vein. The Emperor's Theme is truly scary and brooding. Kylo's is more like an announcement.

 

They could be the same music and it still wouldn't prove your point: its called variations.

 

[Mattris 416]

The two themes being "the same music" wouldn't prove what? Variations of what?

[JTN 2,033]

God this woman is clueless. And I don’t know, but her expressions, her 1000 superwhitened teeth, and her huge eyes looking up searching for an answer, make her so unlikeable.

I remember Carrie Fisher’s interviews, she was always the most charming, funny, witty, adorable girl. Ridley on the other hand is an obnoxious, clueless woman.

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

The two themes being "the same music" wouldn't prove what?

 

This - Alberich's assumption of the Tarnhelm - is exactly the same music as this, Brunnhilde's awakening. Doesn't mean that Brunnhilde is the Tarnehlm... just means that both instances have an underlying magic to them.

 

Kylo's music and the Emperor's sharing a similar vocabulary likewise just owes to the fact that they're both Sith.

[Mattris 416]

26 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Kylo's music and the Emperor's sharing a similar vocabulary likewise just owes to the fact that they're both Sith.

 

The fact that Kylo Ren's Theme  starts with five notes in a row from the decades-established theme for The Emperor doesn't mean the two themes 'share a similar vocabulary'... nor is Kylo's Theme  a 'variation' of The Emperor's Theme.  It's directly  constructed from it.

 

The two themes are also orchestrated quite differently, with The Emperor's Theme  almost exclusively utilizing a male chorus and Kylo Ren's Theme  utilizing French horns.

 

Speaking of facts, Kylo Ren was never was a Sith, although he was manipulated by The Emperor himself. What a happy coincidence that the 2015 music aligns so perfectly with the 2019 story!

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Happy coincidences do happen. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

33 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Happy coincidences do happen. 

 

I don't think its a coincidence. Its just that I see the connection as more generic or "poetic", rather than literal and plot-oriented, as Mattris sees it.

 

Its just that they're both Sith music, and so OF COURSE they're going to be closely related. "Sith" here strictly in the sense of Dark Side Force-user.

[JTN 2,033]

The main theme of Home Alone and Hook starts with the same two notes, yet the two films couldn’t be more different.

[Tallguy 3,401]

2 hours ago, JTW said:

God this woman is clueless. And I don’t know, but her expressions, her 1000 superwhitened teeth, and her huge eyes looking up searching for an answer, make her so unlikeable.

I remember Carrie Fisher’s interviews, she was always the most charming, funny, witty, adorable girl. Ridley on the other hand is an obnoxious, clueless woman.

 

She's not doing enough coke? 

 

She's not Emma Thompson but she seems a fairly normal person. 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

4 hours ago, JTW said:

God this woman is clueless. And I don’t know, but her expressions, her 1000 superwhitened teeth, and her huge eyes looking up searching for an answer, make her so unlikeable.

 

I remember Carrie Fisher’s interviews, she was always the most charming, funny, witty, adorable girl. Ridley on the other hand is an obnoxious, clueless woman.

What a baffling thing to say. I’d shove the maestro himself out of the way for a chance to chat Daisy up any day.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

4 hours ago, JTW said:

The main theme of Home Alone and Hook starts with the same two notes, yet the two films couldn’t be more different.

 

Yet both film titles start with an H and an o...

 

15 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It happened all the time in Star Trek. How many times did they send a landing party down to investigate "life form" readings and just find a bunch of trees and shrubbery...

 

 

Kirk: "Damn it! More trees and shrubbery!"

 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

46 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

What a baffling thing to say. I’d shove the maestro himself out of the way for a chance to chat Daisy up any day.

And I admire Ridley for not taking the bait when recently asked about the fan backlash to the new Rey movie. The interviewer was obviously angling for a juicy answer in line with the media narrative (i.e., "Misogyny!"), but Daisy shut her down and said that, to her, it's been "blown out of proportion".

[JTN 2,033]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

And I admire Ridley

And you really believe that she doesn’t have a manager, a whole team that prepares her in advance? The Disney-Lucasfilm PR team have learnt from the backlash by now and doesn’t want to alienate the fans any more. Too late tbh, but at least they’re trying. And little Daisy says what her team tells her to. Just like Rachel Zegler. Just look at how her narrative changed on Snow White after the huge backlash. She was obviously told to shut the f up about bashing the original animated film and how her character will be a powerful leader not wanting to find true love but to fight the patriarchy. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

17 hours ago, Mattris said:

 If Star Wars was made for money, then why did George Lucas take such a small fee for directing his film?

 

If I'm not mistaken, I recall that Lucas significantly cut his "director's fee" in exchange for merchandising rights, which seems to be a business-driven move.

[JTN 2,033]

Here’s Daisy still on the old narrative.

Here’s another gem where she’s trying to be smart, but fails miserably. 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

10 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Lucas significantly cut his "director's fee" in exchange for merchandising rights, which was 100% a money/business-driven move.

Here's an interview with Lucas' attorney at the time, Tom Pollock, that details his reasons for negotiating the way he did...

 

https://deadline.com/2015/12/star-wars-franchise-george-lucas-historic-rights-deal-tom-pollock-1201669419/

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

That interview smacks of the apocryphal.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

12 minutes ago, JTW said:

God this woman is clueless. And I don’t know, but her expressions, her 1000 superwhitened teeth, and her huge eyes looking up searching for an answer, make her so unlikeable.

 

I remember Carrie Fisher’s interviews, she was always the most charming, funny, witty, adorable girl. Ridley on the other hand is an obnoxious, clueless woman.

 

And you really believe that she doesn’t have a manager, a whole team that prepares her in advance? The Disney-Lucasfilm PR team have learnt from the backlash by now and doesn’t want to alienate the fans any more. Too late tbh, but at least they’re trying. And little Daisy says what her team tells her to. Just like Rachel Zegler. Just look at how her narrative changed on Snow White after the huge backlash. She was obviously told to shut the f up about bashing the original animated film and how her character will be a powerful leader not wanting to find true love but to fight the patriarchy. 

 

Here’s Daisy still on the old narrative

Here’s another gem where she’s trying to be smart, but fails miserably. 

 

That's a pretty gross hate boner you have there bro.

[JTN 2,033]

I dislike stupid films and clueless actors/actresses being worshipped for being dumb, that’s all, buddy.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

 

8 minutes ago, JTW said:

The Disney-Lucasfilm PR team have learnt from the backlash by now and doesn’t want to alienate the fans any more.

 

Have they? I'll need to see a lot more evidence than Ridley not taking the bait on a loaded question before I believe that. 

[JTN 2,033]

Yeah, probably they haven’t, but at least they’re telling their lead actors to shut the f about calling fans who criticize the sequel trilogy and Rey’s character, sexist.