GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Recently, reading a lot of threads and comments around here I found a lot of criticism for certain works of John Williams and a lot of appreciation for music work where I thought, I especially adore John Williams because his music is better than that. Then there is the frequent question in many minds, how can you be a John Williams and a Hans Zimmer fan at the same time? Isn't it rather possible to claim, your favourite composers are Igor Strawinsky and John Williams than your favourite composers are Hans Zimmer and John Williams, because the first two have musically more in common than the last two? Anyway, I don't want to start a new bashing thread on any other composers, but I would like to know what do you appreciate in John Williams that makes you a John Williams fan. Is it the musical excellence, the classical quality, the rhythmic complexity, is it just that some of his themes are so recognizable? What makes his music so unique for you? And is John Williams your favourite composer anyway or are you just here for the Tolkien thread? Questions. Questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: I would like to know what do you appreciate in John Williams that makes you a John Williams fan. I like his music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Just now, Jurassic Shark said: I like his music. *sigh* Edmilson, Quintus and Jurassic Shark 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I really mean it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Details. I want details. Why do you like his music more than the music of for example Alan Silvestri? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 OK, here's a more serious answer: - His melodic gifts. - His ability and persistency to (almost) always have something interesting going on in his music, be it counterpoint, rhythmic patterns, harmonic changes and so on. - His ability to turn even mediocre ideas into good pieces through solid workmanship. -His sense of quality: at the point where some composers would have said that a piece is done, JW keeps working on it until he's got something both he and we find interesting. The Illustrious Jerry, SteveMc, Bellosh and 7 others 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: OK, here's a more serious answer: - His melodic gifts. - His ability and persistency to (almost) always have something interesting going on in his music, be it counterpoint, rhythmic patterns, harmonic changes and so on. - His ability to turn even mediocre ideas into good pieces through solid workmanship. I can connect to that. What I find especially interesting, that to me there is with all the quality and complexity there is always a transparency and recongizable structure in the music. It is like it is brilliant and interesting, but I as a musical amateur are actually able to follow what is going on there in the music. He manages to walk the path between overwelming and underwelming the listener like noone else. At least that's my impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 minute ago, GerateWohl said: I can connect to that. What I find especially interesting, that to me there is with all the quality and complexity there is always a transparency and recongizable structure in the music. It is like it is brilliant and interesting, but I as a musical amateur are actually able to follow what is going on there in the music. He manages to walk the path between overwelming and underwelming the listener like noone else. At least that's my impression. Well said. I agree that he's usually good at creating structures that are easy to follow. His two last films are an exception, although hardly his fault... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,517 Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 Williams is a heavyweight, both in the 20th century and overall. I once thought that Shostakovich was a better composer than him, but further studies of the music of both have made me reject this hypothesis. Shostakovich had a smiliar rare skill for melodically improving inspirations he followed, but overall was much more crude in his craft, with rare exceptions to be found in quartets and the preludes and fugues. As it stands, I only consider Stravinsky's and Debussy's contributions to the 20th century classical music greater, as their time resulted in what was perhaps the last great revolution. But I don't believe in a single mythical innovation card trumping all other considerations. Mendelssohn wasn't much of a revolutionary either. Williams' music is a spring of study material in every aspect of a composer's craft. There are many combinations of melodic, harmonic, contrapunctual, and orchestrational merits in his music that are not found easily in the ouvres of others. He is a great syncretist of styles and skills, setting the bar very high for anyone who wishes to continue a trend of such music. I like some Zimmer too - his collaborations with Powell, the Pirates films, the Lion King, all of which would be weak as classical, but are good as pop. GerateWohl, SteveMc and Bayesian 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,688 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 To alter the Twain quip about Wagner, Williams' music is as good as it sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 8 minutes ago, Tom said: To alter the Twain quip about Wagner, Williams' music is as good as it sounds. So, you mean the quality of the music relies on the sound quality of its performance or recording? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,688 Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 No, I mean that his music grabs you when you first hear it, and also rewards you with repeat listens as it contains layers and layers of brilliance. It is a like a really, really attractive person who you then find has a truly engaging personality. SteveMc, The Illustrious Jerry, Datameister and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,087 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 His music makes me feel good things. I've speculated that the reasons why include his balance between accessibility and interestingness, his tendency to put jazz harmonies and voicings to unexpected orchestral use, his ability to write a great melody, and his mastery of the full palette of orchestral colors. But it's not as though I'm consciously checking off those boxes. I just...like his music. To look at it from another perspective, I think the genesis of my fandom had a lot to do with my exposure to (and immediate love for) Star Wars during critical childhood years, the availability of a few Williams recordings in the house for me to start appreciating on their own, and the fact that both of my parents were instrumentalists who gently fostered an appreciation for music without forcing it on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,529 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Tom said: To alter the Twain quip about Wagner, Williams' music is as good as it sounds. To alter even further - Williams' music sounds like it possibly might not be as good as it sounds but it actually is. Jurassic Shark and SteveMc 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bayesian 1,367 Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 I think we shouldn't overlook the good fortune JW has had to work with two directors (GL and SS) who were both great storytellers and willing to give JW enormous canvases (dozens of hours' worth) to work his magic on. For the most part, they both did the best thing you can do with that kind of genius -- which is to give him good material to work from and then just stay out of his way. But apart from that, JW is my favorite composer (after Beethoven) because he is a master of all aspects of his art (melody, harmony, orchestration, voicing, arranging...). He's proven he can write convincingly in multiple, completely disparate styles of music. He has a musicologist's understanding of the evolution of composition and performance over time. He is incredibly good at writing earworms and he's just as good at bombast as he is at contemplative or elegiac material. Moreover, he's mastered two rather distinct forms of music-making in his work in jazz and film scoring and can expertly blend the former into the latter. And beyond that... JW is an excellent pianist who proved himself as such well before he got into scoring, and he's a terrific conductor who orchestras love to perform for. And beyond even that, he's an accomplished composer for the concert hall whose works in that vein are considerably different and more challenging than his accessible material for film (which simply just shows again his incredible range). Finally, he is a true inspiration to me in that he's the archetype of what a lifetime of hard work can bring you. JW's story would be less accessible or inspirational to me if he was some kind of Mozartean freak who came out of the womb writing music, or the equivalent of a twenty-something tech wunderkind who made his first billion from a piece of code that happened to catch fire at the right moment. Rather, he put in his time, worked exceptionally hard and consistently, took advantage of every opportunity to improve his craftsmanship, and never allowed himself to coast. JW is like the embodiment of the Protestant work ethic and his legacy and recognition are wonderful reminders of what hard work can get you, at any stage in your life. SteveMc, Fabulin, GerateWohl and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,504 Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 I like the music, I like the man, his path, his rigor, his musical culture, his different abilities (piano, composer, arranger, director), his humour, his temperament, his versatility, his leg to film music. And because he's the last of the Mohicans. He took the Great romantic and symphonic "Hollywood film music" genre HERE, and he brought it THERE, assimilating to a never saw before level, the works of all his predecessors. He's like a J.S. Bach for me. Bellosh, WDG01 and GerateWohl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I came from a classical background, so what attracted me to Williams was the genius and integrity of his musical craft, which to my ears places him right up there among the greats. Now, to answer the OP about how someone can like both Williams and someone like recent Zimmer. It has to do with what they are primarily interested in. A lot of folks like John Williams because they like film music in particular and deem him a great film composer. There are other film composers who are inferior to him in a strictly musical sense but who are still as good and even perhaps better film composers. A lot of Goldsmith and Silvestri and Zimmer will never be part of the classical canon (as I argue much of John's oeuvre will be), but they are musically fit works that serve their films very well and are still engaging to listen to on their own. Other folks get into film music primarily because they love movies and tend to gravitate towards scores from the films they like, even if the style and quality varies a lot. As for myself, l listen to all lot of different music so I can enjoy different composers by compartmentalizing them in a sense. Williams is in the classical compartment. Guys like Zimmer are in a more pop orchestral compartment. Strengths and weaknesses can then be assessed in context. Score and GerateWohl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post artguy360 1,846 Posted January 20, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2021 I have a couple reasons for "why John Williams." I'll just name a few now and return to this topic in the future. 1. His music grabs you with its directness. JW has often said that film music needs to be direct and to the point in terms of communicating whatever it is trying to communicate to the audience because the music most often does not have the audience's full attention. 2. Even with that said, his music is very rewarding to listen to on its own. What I mean by this is that his music is rarely boring, always interesting to follow with my ear in a way that many other film composers' scores are not. There's a complexity to his orcjestations and choices that is often lacking in other composers' works. Conrad Pope and others have discussed why this is. 3. Related to the above, JW's scores tell stories and are not just music for music's sake or playing the role of sound effects. There's a satisfying narrative to discover with themes, interesting uses and treatments of said themes, and a nice ebb and flow. Listen to the score for TENET for an excellent counter example. These are my initial thoughts. Jurassic Shark, SteveMc, Holko and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 31 minutes ago, artguy360 said: Conrad Pope and others have discussed why this is. Is there an interview available about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,319 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Man! There be a lotta pontificatin' here!. I'll get to it read in it .........someday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 These are just normal ways to express oneselves, Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,319 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 55 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: These are just normal ways to express oneselves, Bruce. It's a MESSAGE board, dammitt! LEAVE the essays to the PROFESSIONALS! 😝 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: Is there an interview available about this? Probably, artguy360 to the Conrad Pope Interview on thelegacyofjohnwiĺliams? That was really a great Interview by Mauricio. 1 minute ago, bruce marshall said: LEAVE the essays to the PROFESSIONALS! 😝 Äh, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 I rarely have time to listen to podcasts, but I'll prioritize this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,319 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Because I said so. I'm giving FREE advice. Show some ' gratitude' 8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I rarely have time to listen to podcasts, but I'll prioritize this. Podcasts.....my god! 😅 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 I understand why you were kicked out of the FSM board. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,319 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 One of the few, if only thing, I like about Shark is his short, to the point posts.😍 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: These are just normal ways to express oneselves, Bruce. Who are you, Thor? 😝😜😝😅😅😅😅 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 That's one more than the number of things I like about you! bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,461 Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Is that John Williams the guitarist? GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,319 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I understand why you were kicked out of the FSM board. Welllllllllll.... You and Bela can safely post over there now! 😆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Jeez Bruce. If you don't want to read long posts, simply close the thread and read a different one instead. You telling others how you feel they should alter their posting style is not welcome This is the John Williams subforum on a John Williams message board, of course people have things to say about his music. Nobody here did anything wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,517 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Jurassic Shark is a nice guy, but his comedy is diluted by posting so frequently every post has a low possibility of being really funny. If he posted less frequently and saved up his comedy juice for fewer posts the overall success rate would be much higher Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,517 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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