FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (1964) vs. GLADIATOR (2000) - which is the better film / score?

[JJA 19]

Two major epics loosely based on the same historical event, namely the disastrous reign of Emperor Commodus (180-192 AD). Both stories involve the previous Emperor, Marcus Aurelius, appointing another heir (Livius / Stephen Boyd in FOTRE, Maximus / Russell Crowe in GLADIATOR) to replace the heir presumed Commodus, a plan which obviously gets thwarted in both films by the death of Aurelius. Eventually, Livius/Maximus defeats Commodus in arranged personal combat at the end. In a sense, GLADIATOR could be considered a quasi-remake of the earlier film, which makes them worthy of comparison.

 

Both scores are quite good and effective, but I will have to go with FOTRE here. I'll admit it's partly my bias towards the golden age sound in general, but it's also more interesting and complicated in terms of it's musical architecture, not to mention that GLADIATOR has some instances of temptrackitis, namely the Holst-inspired bits in battle scenes.

 

The films are a more complicated matter.

 

I find Maximus to be a superior protagonist to Livius. While Stephen Boyd is a fine actor, he's a tiny bit of a charisma void when trying to carry a lead role whilst surrounded by the talents of Alec Guinness, James Mason, and Christopher Plummer. From a certain perspective, one might argue this gives Livius a diminutiveness that fits in well with the story arc of him being a hero who procrastinates on seeing the need to do what needs to be done. But that arc may precisely be a part of the problem, as both stories hinge on Aurelius viewing Livius/Maximus as a worthy candidate to lead Rome towards a better age. GLADIATOR easily convinces me that Maximus might be such a person, whereas FOTRE is less successful at this (Livius just sort of gives up when his succession can't be proven, and gives up again at the end when offered to lead the empire). +1 for GLADIATOR

 

The political subplot is more meaty and developed in FOTRE, which overall feels like the smarter, more literate film of the two. GLADIATOR also has that anachronistic and stupid bit about Aurelius wanting Maximus to restore democracy (WTF!?), whereas FOTRE more wisely just has him consider Livius better as a potential leader than Commodus. FOTRE has its own anachronistic bits (some allusions to the contemporary civil rights movements), but they somehow bother me less. +1 for FOTRE

 

While both are in their own ways effective in the role of Commodus, Christopher Plummer is probably better than Joaquin Phoenix. The more esoteric reasons to dislike Plummer's Commodus (his bad governing etc) just appeal to me more than the cliche of a villain killing the hero's family and now it's personal. His version also feels more strongly like the historical character in certain ways. +1 for FOTRE

 

Richard Harris as Aurelius is very good, but Alec Guinness simply inhabits the role. +1 for FOTRE

 

As a small miscellaneous issue, there's one really terrible scene in FOTRE that makes me cringe, namely the chariot chase between Livius and Commodus early on. Seems like the filmmakers threw it in to compete with similar scenes in QUO VADIS and BEN-HUR, and it seems clumsily overdramatic as a way of externalizing the temporary animosity Commodus feels towards Livius at that moment. -1 for FOTRE

 

So probably FOTRE here too, but I do enjoy both films.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Gonna go with Gladiator on both accounts. But I am a fan of all those 1950s/60s Epics. My folks would show those to us all the time growing up. 

[Thor 7,518]

GLADIATOR wins both, easy piecey. A masterpiece, a pop cultural cornerstone.

 

I can't remember if I've seen FALL or not, and if I did, it's been many, many years, because I can't remember a thing. Nice score, though, one of Tiomkin's best. More fullbodied than a lot of his other work. While I've sampled one of the old OSTs, I don't believe I've ever owned it in any format. I did, however, once own the Silva EPICS album that included a couple of selections.

[Romão 2,274]

FOTRE for score, Gladiator for movie, although I enjoy both on the two aspects

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE for both. Gladiator is not a very good film. And its score is a bit eh. 

[publicist 4,643]

Fall of the Roman Empire is wake-comatose, so i go with the modern cheese version.

[Positivatee 327]

The cover art for FotRE is lavish and stunning. I bought this to own that cover art. 

 

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Gladiator for both. Not a huge fan of the Golden Age sword and sandal epics. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Wake me up when Zzzimmer can write a theme as good as this.

 

 

[Bespin 8,484]

Writing a theme... that's so old fashioned.

 

Zimmer wrote enough ambient music for Dune to fill up a 21 CD boxset.

 

And he'll probably win an Oscar for it.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I think GLADIATOR was , in part, an allegory of US Imperialism which is why the "anachronisms" make dramatic sense.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,551]

7 hours ago, Positivatee said:

The cover art for FotRE is lavish and stunning. I bought this to own that cover art. 

 

It is a beautiful looking cover.

THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE is a solid, competently made, if ultimately uninspiring, film, with a fine score.

GLADIATOR...is not.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

I watched Gladiator again about half a year ago and found interestingly that, uncommon for Zimmer the biggest weakness of the score is the action music. It sounds a little too much like Pirates of the Caribean. The more quiet melodic parts work quite well. Anyway, I am not a fan of the score. The movie is great. 

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

I watched Gladiator again about half a year ago and found interestingly that, uncommon for Zimmer the biggest weakness of the score is the action music.

The action music is always the weakness in Zimmer scores!

[GerateWohl 4,371]

6 minutes ago, publicist said:

The action music is always the weakness in Zimmer scores!

I thought, it is the thematic basis, which is almost not existing, since his "themes" usually just consist of a repeating chord sequence.

[publicist 4,643]

1 minute ago, GerateWohl said:

I thought, it is the thematic basis, which is almost not existing, since his "themes" usually just consist of a repeating chord sequence.

 

I don't think that theory holds water, Zimmer is a good tunesmith. In pop/rock mode or in his often-used teutonian (or better, Mahler-ian or Wagner-ian) modes, i. e. Hannibal. Applied to 10 minutes of thumping and simplistic loudness (i. e. action cues) they may become grating, but i don't even think he's written much recently where he wkred on movies like that, maybe Bond, and that is unfortunately making my case.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

55 minutes ago, publicist said:

I don't think that theory holds water, Zimmer is a good tunesmith. In pop/rock mode or in his often-used teutonian (or better, Mahler-ian or Wagner-ian) modes, i. e. Hannibal. Applied to 10 minutes of thumping and simplistic loudness (i. e. action cues) they may become grating, but i don't even think he's written much recently where he wkred on movies like that, maybe Bond, and that is unfortunately making my case.

Not my experience. When I pay attention to his music like 12 Years a Slave, Inception, Dark Knight, Dunkirk, I find no tune, just chords.

I listened to some of the John Williams and Hans Zimmer mash-ups on YouTube which is usually just plaing Williams tunes over Zimmer chords, because the other way around it wouldn't work.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Try THIN RED LINE.

Some beautiful melodies.

SPIRIT. also!

 

 

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

The action music is always the weakness in Zimmer scores!

Sometimes.

Not " always"

1 hour ago, publicist said:

The action music is always the weakness in Zimmer scores!

Sometimes.

Not " always"

[Thor 7,518]

Play some 80s and 90s Zimmer -- they've got tunes all over them.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,551]

13 minutes ago, Thor said:

Play some 80s and 90s Zimmer -- they've got tunes all over them.

Yeah, especially GOING FOR GOLD 

[Thor 7,518]

2 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Yeah, especially GOING FOR GOLD 

 

Ha, ha....indeed! Extremely kitchy, but also extremely infectious. I remember the first time I heard it, I couldn't get it out of my head for days. Even hummed it in the shower.

[publicist 4,643]

16 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Not my experience. When I pay attention to his music like 12 Years a Slave, Inception, Dark Knight, Dunkirk, I find no tune, just chords.

I listened to some of the John Williams and Hans Zimmer mash-ups on YouTube which is usually just plaing Williams tunes over Zimmer chords, because the other way around it wouldn't work.

That‘s unduly reducing Zimmer‘s vast output to a few scores from the last years when it became industry standard to use music as wallpaper that is as devoid of character as possible (Nolan, of course). Which of course is no characteristic limited to Zimmers stuff.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

Yes. I did not "study" Zimmer. But since I pay particular attention in the scores in a movie He usually gives me that wallpaper feeling, even in scenes where I think, this would deserve some proper music.

To be fair, I just listened to some tunes from "The Thin Red Line" and thought at some tracks, this could be written by Howard Shore, whom I really like, so he does often do more or less the same pastiche writing. Therefore, my judgement is surely highly subjective. 

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Yes. I did not "study" Zimmer.

 

Study? You have never seen (i. e.) these movies?

 

The Lion King
Crimson Tide

The Rock

Peacemaker

Prince of Egypt 
Hannibal
Matchstick Men

Pirates of the Caribbean I-III
King Arthur
Last Samurai

Da Vinci Code
Kung Fu Panda

Sherlock Holmes

The Amazing Spider-Man 2

 

They may not be musically sophisticated in the ways of Williams, but they surely got (recognizable) tunes in them.

 

 

[Thor 7,518]

Yup, do check out the aforementioned 80s and 90s scores, in particular. Zimmer has never been better, IMO, even though there are some amazing scores post-millennium too, of course.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

6 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Study? You have never seen (i. e.) these movies?

 

The Lion King
Crimson Tide

The Rock

Peacemaker

Prince of Egypt 
Hannibal
Matchstick Men

Pirates of the Caribbean I-III
King Arthur
Last Samurai

Da Vinci Code
Kung Fu Panda

Sherlock Holmes

The Amazing Spider-Man 2

 

They may not be musically sophisticated in the ways of Williams, but they surely got (recognizable) tunes in them.

Thank you very much for the proposals.

I think, I have seen about half of these movies.

I wouldn't count The Lion King, since probably the score was mainly based on the songs.

I once even owned the score of Hannibal (was a present), but didn't enflame me in any way. Couldn't keep up with Shores score from Silence of the Lambs.

The only movies from the list (of those which I have seen) where I was actually pleased with the music were the Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

I hardly remember The Rock. Didn't see, King Arthur, Last Samurai nor Amazing Spiderman 2 or Da Vinci Code or Crimson Tide.

The first score, where I recognized Zimmer was "Black Rain" and I was so disappointed, because I liked the Goldsmith scores for Ridley Scott's movies so much. Even though I admit, the score worked well in the movie and created a special atmosphere.

It is simply not my cup of tea music-wise. I am too old fashioned and Zimmer's music is too functional for my taste. Ok for most of the movies. But there is not one, NOT ONE tune from Zimmer, even if I found them recognizable, that really caught my attention in a positive way. It simply ranges between "very ok in the movie" (Kung Fu Panda, PotC) and I am bored (Hannibal, Bladerunner 2049 etc.).

 

But I will listen into some of the scores you mentioned. Never say never.

 

[fommes 153]

Thanks for this thread, which inspired me to play the Fall of the Roman Empire rerecording. Such a terrific score, an all-time classic in my opinion, and between these two surely superior, even though Zimmer's score has many merits itself (if you disregard the action music ;)).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

10 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I watched Gladiator again about half a year ago and found interestingly that, uncommon for Zimmer the biggest weakness of the score is the action music. It sounds a little too much like Pirates of the Caribean. The more quiet melodic parts work quite well. Anyway, I am not a fan of the score. The movie is great. 

Gladiator came out before Pirates…

[GerateWohl 4,371]

50 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

Gladiator came out before Pirates…

I know. But this sound is for me meanwhile rather connected with PotC. For that it works better. Just my personal view. Others might always just hear that Gladiator sound in Pirates of the Caribean.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,551]

I hear something in Pirates Of The Carribbean.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Hearing similarities in Gladiator and PotC is just the bleeding obvious, given that both were composed by the same team (Zimmer/Badelt/?) a few years apart.

 

I completely accept that Gladiator borrows heavily for its action, but Horner/Williams have had their fair share of blatant 'classical inspiration'. I think that if one is trying to single out Zimmer, it's a result of them looking for fuel for their dislike of him.

 

I've never heard or seen FOTRE, so by default for me Gladiator is my preference for both. It was certainly never going to win any orchestration awards, and it would've been nice if Zimmer had relied a little less on sequencers/synths for the action, but in terms of themes and emotion, a bit like Eternals, it works wonders when it needs to, despite being relatively simplistic.

 

I actually saw the film back when I had zero interest in scores, so my post-viewing opinion was simply that it's a great film. I guess the battle music and the Honor Him/NWAF sequence probably made an impression on me at some point after, but it certainly wasn't any time in 2000.

 

For the record, the same goes for Potter - I wasn't into scores when I saw that either, and it wasn't until I saw FotR that something happened and I decided I needed to hear that interesting music I'd just heard.

[Romão 2,274]

10 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

 

I wouldn't count The Lion King, since probably the score was mainly based on the songs.

 

 I don't really think that's the case at all with the lion king. The score hardly relies or references the song material

 And there are some very accomplished themes in that score