new discovery - original Cantina Band cue title

[JWScores 28]

9 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Also worth noting that ‘Don’t Bee That Weigh’ is actually crossed out and ‘The Catina Band Pt. II’ is written in with red ink.

 

This is typically what they did with cues selected for album tracks. See for example how ‘The Last Battle Part I’ is written in for 8M2 More Rescue here, which would only make sense in the context of the album track:

 

So, it would appear Cantina Band 2 may have originally been intended to feature on the OST, combined in a track with the other Cantina Band tune.

 

Unless I'm forgetting some evidence to the contrary, I'd suggest a different interpretation: I have always assumed that the titles that match the album tracks were written by some librarian after the complete-ish recordings were released, or in conjunction with such releases. So, when that cue was titled "Cantina Band #2", say, for the 1997 "complete" 2CD (or whatever was the first release of that cue), a librarian wrote that title on the copy of the manuscript that we are seeing in Graham's video, to keep track of the final cue names and for ease of reference to the CDs.  

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,808]

Do we know who played on 'Cantina Band" 1 and 2?

 

[enderdrag64 648]

8 hours ago, JWScores said:

 

Unless I'm forgetting some evidence to the contrary, I'd suggest a different interpretation: I have always assumed that the titles that match the album tracks were written by some librarian after the complete-ish recordings were released, or in conjunction with such releases. So, when that cue was titled "Cantina Band #2", say, for the 1997 "complete" 2CD (or whatever was the first release of that cue), a librarian wrote that title on the copy of the manuscript that we are seeing in Graham's video, to keep track of the final cue names and for ease of reference to the CDs.  

 

There is evidence against this actually. The Margaret Herrick Library at AMPAS has some typeset cue sheets in their collection that were donated by Lukas Kendall of FSM. You can pay for a scanned copy if you want it for research purposes, I bought one a while ago. All of the scratched out titles in the sheet music match the titles in the typeset cue sheet. The typeset cue sheet is dated June 15, 1977.

 

Here is a table with the original John Williams title on the left, the scratched out/revised title in the middle (this list is incomplete as the sheet music leak doesn't have all of these), and the typeset cue sheet on the right. 

 

JW Title	Replacement title	Typeset Cue Sheet Title
Star Wars		Main Title
The War	Imperial Attack - Pt II	Imperial Attack - Part II
The Escape Hatch	Imperial Attack	Imperial Attack - Part I
Desert Song	The Desert	R-2
The Little People		Robot Auction
More Little People	The Little People Work	Litte People At Work
R-2		More Little People
The Princess Appears	Princess Leia's Theme	Princess Leia's Theme
Lost R2		Lost R2 - Part II
The Sand Speeder	The Land of the Sand People	The Land of the Sand People
The Sandman Attacks	The Land of the Sand People - Pt II	The Land of the Sand People - Part II
Obi-Wan Kenobi	The Land of the Sand People - Pt III	The Land of the Sand People - Part III
The Force		The Force
The Princess Reappears		The Princess Reappears
A Home Destroyed	The Return Home	The Return Home
A Home Destroyed		A Hive of Villainy
A Hive of Villainy		The Force
		Cantina Band
		Cantina Band
		Cantina Band - Part II
The Inner City		Is It A Bird
Blasting Away		Blasting Away
The Destruction of Alderon		Destruction of Alderon
Is It A Bird?		Blasting Off - Part II
The Hatch Opens		Mouse Robot
The Mouse Robot		The Mouse Robot
More Rescue	The Last Battle - Pt I	The Last Battle - Part I
The Rescue		The Walls Converge - Part I
The Water Snake
The Walls Converge		The Princess Appears
Ben Creeps Around	The Princess Appears	Rescue of the Princess - Part II
The Swashbucklers	The Rescue of the Princess - Pt II	Ben's Death
Ben's Death		Ben's Death
Here They Come	The Fighters Attack	The Fighter Attack
Stand By	Standing By	Standing By
Approaching the Target	The Last Battle - Pt II	The Last Battle - Part I
The Last Battle		The Last Battle - Part II
End Titles	The Throne Room and End Titles	The Throne & End Title

 

[JWScores 28]

56 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

There is evidence against this actually. The Margaret Herrick Library at AMPAS has some typeset cue sheets in their collection that were donated by Lukas Kendall of FSM. You can pay for a scanned copy if you want it for research purposes, I bought one a while ago. All of the scratched out titles in the sheet music match the titles in the typeset cue sheet. The typeset cue sheet is dated June 15, 1977.

 

Here is a table with the original John Williams title on the left, the scratched out/revised title in the middle (this list is incomplete as the sheet music leak doesn't have all of these), and the typeset cue sheet on the right. 

 

Thanks for the info, I didn't know about this. But I think some titles ended up misplaced in your table, right? For example, "The Swashbucklers" seems to become "Ben's Death" in the last column: if it's correct, they really made a mess with the new titles (which they did, anyway)!

[enderdrag64 648]

4 minutes ago, JWScores said:

 

Thanks for the info, I didn't know about this. But I think some titles ended up misplaced in your table, right? For example, "The Swashbucklers" seems to become "Ben's Death" in the last column: if it's correct, they really made a mess with the new titles (which they did, anyway)!

My table is accurate to the information in the cue sheet.

 

It would appear that whoever typed it out made several mistakes. I'm not sure if they were the same person who scratched out the original titles on the sheet music or not.

 

Either way, I think it makes @BrotherSound's theory less likely

[JWScores 28]

1 hour ago, enderdrag64 said:

My table is accurate to the information in the cue sheet.

 

It would appear that whoever typed it out made several mistakes. 

 

 

Indeed!

[enderdrag64 648]

I'm surprised no one pointed out that my table lists "Cantina Band" twice...

 

That's actually one of the biggest mysteries of the typeset cue list to me, and it's the reason I didn't throw the new cue title into the table.

 

The typeset cue list has the following three cues:

 

5m3 Cantina Band (2:20)                                 (this has "Broken Up" handwritten next to it)

5m3a Cantina Band (1:00)                                (this has "2nd song  2:11  broken up" handwritten next to it)

5m4-6m1 Cantina Band - Part II (3:40)           (this has "1:11" handwritten next to it)
 

My understanding based on the other handwritten notes on the documents as well as what I was told when I bought it is that the handwritten notes were added by the team that made the 1993 Anthology set, as they were trying to piece together the score information.

 

The backs of the pages are made entirely of handwritten notes, which are primarily a written description of what's on the session tapes. A part of the way down is written:

Quote

 

Cantina Band (+ pick-ups)

Cantina Band 2

     "        "       "   (slow)

 

 

[Tallguy 3,588]

As long as they don't use the titles from the 1997. Ecch.

[The Great Gonzales 5,495]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

As long as they don't use the titles from the 1997. Ecch.

Every Cool Cue's Horizonal?

[Brando 1,895]

Oh hey btw Cantina Band is on your sheet twice 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,910]

1 minute ago, Brando said:

Oh hey btw Cantina Band is on your sheet twice 

 

Look 3 posts up

[The Great Gonzales 5,495]

5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Look 3 posts up

[Manakin Skywalker 4,910]

Just now, Faleel said:

 

[ThePenitentMan1 825]

On 06/05/2024 at 9:21 AM, enderdrag64 said:

I'm surprised no one pointed out that my table lists "Cantina Band" twice...

 

That's actually one of the biggest mysteries of the typeset cue list to me, and it's the reason I didn't throw the new cue title into the table.

 

The typeset cue list has the following three cues:

 

5m3 Cantina Band (2:20)                                 (this has "Broken Up" handwritten next to it)

5m3a Cantina Band (1:00)                                (this has "2nd song  2:11  broken up" handwritten next to it)

5m4-6m1 Cantina Band - Part II (3:40)           (this has "1:11" handwritten next to it)
 

My understanding based on the other handwritten notes on the documents as well as what I was told when I bought it is that the handwritten notes were added by the team that made the 1993 Anthology set, as they were trying to piece together the score information.

 

The backs of the pages are made entirely of handwritten notes, which are primarily a written description of what's on the session tapes. A part of the way down is written:

"Cantina Band (+ pick-ups)

Cantina Band 2

     "        "       "   (slow)

 

"

 

Any speculation on this, guys?

 

If the sessions for A Charlie Brown Christmas are any indication, I'd say it's normal for jazz recording sessions to have wildly fluctuating runtimes for each take, so it's possible that the typeset runtime is the runtime of the accepted performance/performance edits and the handwritten note beside it was the runtime of the first recorded take or something.

 

The pickups for #1 could mean anything from performance fixes to revisions or even extensions.  The "broken up" writing seems to suggest that the pickups might've been extensions.

[Smeltington 1,466]

I would think a Williams scoring session for a jazz-style piece would be different from a typical jazz recording session, in that all the solos would be written by Williams, rather than improvised by the soloists, and therefore there shouldn't be too much variation in the length of different takes. Maybe some small variation due to the cantina pieces possibly being recorded "wild" without having to sync to the picture. But Williams probably had a tempo in mind that would keep most takes to roughly the same length.

 

Someone with more specific knowledge of the cantina band sheet music and recording process could probably address these speculations better, and hopefully will!

[QuartalHarmony 577]

On 9/5/2024 at 3:39 PM, Smeltington said:

I would think a Williams scoring session for a jazz-style piece would be different from a typical jazz recording session, in that all the solos would be written by Williams, rather than improvised by the soloists

Not if the ‘Signature’ HL score is anything to go by.

 

That said, there aren’t really any solos in the usual jazz sense (that I can recall) in either Cantina Band piece.

 

It’d be fascinating to see the original session sheets to Banning Back Hone, since that definitely has conventional jazz solo sections.

[oierem 165]

According to the liner notes of the 1997 CD release, 8 takes were recorded for Cantina Band 1 (the 4th take was used, unedited). And only two takes for Cantina Band 2 (the 1st take was used, again, unedited).

[Brando 1,895]

The film uses a specific take for Cantina Band when the music is cut when Luke gets pushed to the ground.

[Groovygoth666 757]

This is probably a stupid question but could the broken up part be a note of how the music was going to be edited in the film? IE the film cuts the music up, for Cantina Band 1 the first part is about 2:13 then following Obi Wan cutting Pondas arm off coming back for another 0:20. Cantina Band 2 plays for 2:14 stopping briefly for the shot of Obi Wan and Luke outside the Cantina then continuing for 1:17 for the scene with Greedo.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,910]

15 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

This is probably a stupid question but could the broken up part be a note of how the music was going to be edited in the film? IE the film cuts the music up, for Cantina Band 1 the first part is about 2:13 then following Obi Wan cutting Pondas arm off coming back for another 0:20. Cantina Band 2 plays for 2:14 stopping briefly for the shot of Obi Wan and Luke outside the Cantina then continuing for 1:17 for the scene with Greedo.

 

I already had no question that that was the case.

 

17 hours ago, Brando said:

The film uses a specific take for Cantina Band when the music is cut when Luke gets pushed to the ground.

 

It's just the natural ending of the take being used prior, not a different take from what's been released.