SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Tom 4,661]

7 hours ago, Brónach said:

does the mute button no longer exist?

In honor of DOD, it is now called the mutt button.  

[JTN 2,030]

21 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I hope Indy dies

He died after The Last Crusade so no more films could be made. 

[Garrett 153]

From r/Indiana jones leaks:

“If I remeber correctly there are 2 travel map scenes. Of course with a beautiful John Williams score playing  ”

 

Posted by u/LunekJones

Also, u/LunekJones posted the entire plot from Morocco to the end of the movie. If you want to be spoiled, it’s worth checking out.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

24 minutes ago, Garrett said:

Also, u/LunekJones posted the entire plot from Morocco to the end of the movie. If you want to be spoiled, it’s worth checking out.

Huh, I wonder if JW will repeat the 

Spoiler

KOTCS ending with Marion's theme

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

29 minutes ago, Garrett said:

From r/Indiana jones leaks:

“If I remeber correctly there are 2 travel map scenes. Of course with a beautiful John Williams score playing  ”

 

YES! Bring it on!

 

5 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

From r/Indiana jones leaks:

“If I remeber correctly there are 2 travel map scenes. Of course with a beautiful John Williams score playing  ”

 

I think it's very likely that he will.

[pete 907]

Here's the plot summary mentioned earlier. Not sure if it has been lnked to. I just skimmed it to see what happened at the end and more about the time fissure thing mentioned earlier. And well I'm perhaps more excited now to hear the score.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

3 minutes ago, pete said:

Here's the plot summary mentioned earlier. Not sure if it has been lnked to. I just skimmed it to see what happened at the end and more about the time fissure thing mentioned earlier. And well I'm perhaps more excited now to hear the score.

I honestly kind of like the sound of it (not unlike the way I like TROS) so it's promising to me

[Tom 4,661]

I just have to assume Williams goes old school ancient epic music time travel.  I should not get my hopes up, but its the one genre I have always wanted him to tackle.  

[Bellosh 3,419]

So basically nobody liking Mutt in KOTCS (not Shia's fault) and because Shia was... well himself over the past few years lol or however he distanced himself from KOTCS...is the sole reason for Indy's arc and problems with Marion in DoD.

 

Interesting. But seems like a genuine conflict for Indys character in this.

 

Will we get a sad statement of Mutts theme when he's discussed....

 

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

I hate that they're killing Mutt off-screen. I get that the character or the movie he's in aren't exactly beloved, but come on, the death of a son seems like a super cruel tragedy to hit poor Indy. It's way darker and more depressing than this franchise usually is.

 

If they didn't want Shia to appear, just mention that he's busy taking care of his newborn son or something, don't need to kill him off.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

4 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I hate that they're killing Mutt off-screen. I get that the character or the movie he's aren't exactly beloved, but come on, the death of a son seems like a super cruel tragedy to hit poor Indy. It's way darker and more depressing than this franchise usually is.

 

If they didn't want Shia to appear, just mention that he's busy taking care of his newborn son or something, don't need to kill him off.

"He went off to live with the monkeys"

*Echoey monkey screech plays in the sound mix*

[Bellosh 3,419]

I agree completely.  And since nobody liked Mutt ( I did btw)....will the general audience even give a shit?  Cause KOTCS didn't give us enough Indy appreciating Mutt and vice versa. Although I guess the ending leaves enough for us to believe they were gonna be alright as a family.

 

I also don't know if I hate or like Indys string of bad luck with family issues when otherwise his character and adventures are all based on being a spur of the moment, lucky guy.

[TolkienSS 407]

So Mutt is killed off like I said he would. What a surprise.

 

Anyway, that description of the movie sounds absolutely awful.

[Bellosh 3,419]

i feel bad for JW the most.

 

 

[1977 1,743]

On 20/05/2023 at 1:13 AM, Nick1Ø66 said:

The Marion bit is almost exactly the kind of thing I predicted above, just a different callback. Sounds sort of sweet, actually.

 

So what's the deal with Marion? Does she make any kind of appearance?

 

On 19/05/2023 at 11:35 PM, Brónach said:

nothing quite could have prepared me for the low key misogyny bubbling here and there in fandoms around certain things.

 

I adore Marion in Raiders, in fact she is my favourite character in the whole series.

 

I feel the same way about Leia in Star Wars.

 

Ripley is probably my favourite character in cinema full stop.

 

Just FYI.

 

 

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

10 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

So what's the deal with Marion? Does she make any kind of appearance?

 

Apparently she does. And it's about time.

[Bilbo 3,709]

It sounds like they’ve done to Indy what so many fans hated about the ST.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Per the description above, the film ends the way it does because of Helena's actions - not Indy's....

[Bellosh 3,419]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Per the description above, the film ends the way it does because of Helena's actions - not Indy's....

 

remember in Temple of Doom, how Short Round saves Indy...

 

unless the ending of these movies is the only thing that counts.

[Tom 4,661]

6 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

remember in Temple of Doom, how Short Round saves Indy...

 

unless the ending of these movies is the only thing that counts.

We'll have to see the movie, but it is one thing to be saved in a dangerous situation and another to just give up on life.  

[Bellosh 3,419]

14 minutes ago, Tom said:

We'll have to see the movie, but it is one thing to be saved in a dangerous situation and another to just give up on life.  

 

Oh I agree.  But don't kid yourself thinking people (internet) won't lose their shit because A WOMEN did the actual saving.  (I don't think that was Chen's intentions btw on their post)

 

I mean hasn't that already started?  Have you seen Twitter?  People are still worried about Indy being replaced.

 

The issue will ultimately be how Mangold decided to make him not want to live for anything because of all that family drama.  But how long have people known Mangold was at the helm here.....it's no surprise.

[Chen G. 3,949]

55 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

unless the ending of these movies is the only thing that counts.

 

Stories are defined by how they conclude, you know....

[Bellosh 3,419]

6 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Stories are defined by how they conclude, you know....

 

my point was if short round was somehow involved in this finale (like so many people hoped for whatever reason?) i doubt you worry about him saving Indy at the end right?

 

and that's my whole point...people are going to worry about WHO does the saving versus WHY they are doing the saving.

 

But I get it, Indy has to save the day all the time, even at the end...or else what's the point!

[Chen G. 3,949]

I'm not dismissing this out of hand.

 

But I do think one of the emblematic things of these late-in-the-game sequels with their decrepit action heroes (and Indy, in spite of being a Professor - actually, an Emeritus now - is as much an action hero as John McClane) is that the action gets relegated to other characters, to the extent of risking Indy becoming a supporting character.

 

Remember the truck chase in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? The one where Indy is "The one who drives the car"?

[Bellosh 3,419]

11 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I'm not dismissing this out of hand.

 

But I do think one of the emblematic things of these late-in-the-game sequels with their decrepit action heroes (and Indy, in spite of being a Professor - actually, an Emeritus now - is as much an action hero as John McClane) is that the action gets relegated to other characters, to the extent of risking Indy becoming a supporting character.

 

Remember the truck chase in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? The one where Indy is "The one who drives the car"?

 

agreed 100000%

 

i think it's Mangold just trying to add a sense of reality to a character that is simply very old.  And why the prologue (beyond giving us a great way to introduce Helena's father) is Mangold's way of giving us that 'indy is a f'n badass'

 

But you make an Indiana Jones film, with Indy at this age, I'm prepared to allow someone step in and help Indy.

 

Indiana Jones fans love that the series is grounded in reality, but when some actual reality sneaks it's way in, it's a no-go.

[Bilbo 3,709]

2 hours ago, Bellosh said:

remember in Temple of Doom

I try not to 

[Bellosh 3,419]

- disregards movies from the franchise/series

 

- gets upset when they make character decisions based on his age in the new one.

 

but let me guess, you're a REAL indiana jones fan right?  you're so boring.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

 

i think it's Mangold just trying to add a sense of reality to a character that is simply very old.  And why the prologue (beyond giving us a great way to introduce Helena's father) is Mangold's way of giving us that 'indy is a f'n badass'

 

But you make an Indiana Jones film, with Indy at this age, I'm prepared to allow someone step in and help Indy.

 

Indiana Jones fans love that the series is grounded in reality, but when some actual reality sneaks it's way in, it's a no-go.

 

Well, yes, that's the point, isn't it? You're willing to make allowances because Harrison Ford, a real person, is now 80 years old and no one would buy him as an action hero today. That's the reality. 

 

The only problem is, If Indy's not only the center of the action, but the one doing the action, then it's not Indiana Jones. Unlike Harrison Ford, Indiana Jones isn't real, so there was no need for him to age. The fictional character of Indiana Jones is a middle-aged, vital man running around the world acquiring rare antiquities and fighting Nazis in the 1930's. That's what he was created as, that's what he is. If in 1981, Lucas and Spielberg wanted to create a movie around an 80 year-old archaeologist running around the world with his wise-craking God-daughter who did  the action bits, that's what they would have done.  Why didn't they do that? Because that story would have sucked.

 

But, there's money to be made, and we have to see what Indy has been "up to" (again, like we're checking on in a real person we haven't seen in years), so, here we are.

 

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

20 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The only problem is, If Indy's not only the center of the action, but the one doing the action, then it's not Indiana Jones.

 

Agree to disagree on that.

 

Remember when he saves the day at the end of Raiders by melting off peoples faces? (since it seems like we're focused on the ending here)

 

But I know you're going to respond with 'but he did all the action up until then'....

 

Looks like Indy will be doing plenty of action up until the finale in this movie.

 

So again, what's the big deal?

 

But I agree, we didn't need this film lol

[JTN 2,030]

On 21/5/2023 at 1:37 AM, Edmilson said:

I hate that they're killing Mutt off-screen. I get that the character or the movie he's in aren't exactly beloved, but come on, the death of a son seems like a super cruel tragedy to hit poor Indy.

It’s disgraceful. First they made Han become a deadbeat dad who broke up with the love of his life, Leia, and now they kill off Indy’s only son who he only met as an already old man, and they never let him be his dad and teach him everything he knows and what he learned from his father. Shameful. 

[1977 1,743]

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

But I agree, we didn't need this film lol

 

But we did, we needed another JW Indy score

[JTN 2,030]

That’s the ONLY thing that justifies the existence of this film. 

[Edmilson 7,466]

Part of me thinks that Lucasfilm chose killing Mutt as payback for Shia speaking against the movie and his experiences with Spielberg in every opportunity he can. 

 

OTOH, Hollywood screenwriters are notoriously lazy. In their point of view it's just so easy to write character development if the character is miserable. 

 

Maybe Mangold is just applying to Indy the Logan formula (beloved character starts the movie at his lowest but learns once again the value of life thanks to a girl).

 

But this approach certainly is more fitting to Logan (which was sold as a true dark, gritty and mature movie) than to Indy, which is much more lighthearted and less sad. Which is why I think killing Indy's only son is extremely cruel to the character.

[1977 1,743]

10 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Maybe Mangold is just applying to Indy the Logan formula a one trick pony (snark)

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

5 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

a one trick pony

Disagree. Logan may be his most famous movie, but he has done other stuff over the years, like thrillers (Identity), western (3:10 to Yuma), biopics (Walk the Line, Ford vs Ferrari), even more lighthearted movies (Knight & Day). 

 

I'm even sure that, aside from those similarities in the premise, Indy V will still be a lot different than Logan.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

19 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Part of me thinks that Lucasfilm chose killing Mutt as payback for Shia speaking against the movie and his experiences with Spielberg in every opportunity he can. 

 

OTOH, Hollywood screenwriters are notoriously lazy. In their point of view it's just so easy to write character development if the character is miserable. 

 

Maybe Mangold is just applying to Indy the Logan formula (beloved character starts the movie at his lowest but learns once again the value of life thanks to a girl).

 

But this approach certainly is more fitting to Logan (which was sold as a true dark, gritty and mature movie) than to Indy, which is much more lighthearted and less sad. Which is why I think killing Indy's only son is extremely cruel to the character.

 

Yep. I can't stand Mutt any more than the next person, but killing him off this way is just wrong. And I can't help but think that it's at least partially motivated by pettiness.

 

And I agree it's lazy writing...let's make our hero miserable so we can redeem him. 

[1977 1,743]

7 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Disagree. Logan may be his most famous movie, but he has done other stuff over the years, like thrillers (Identity), western (3:10 to Yuma), biopics (Walk the Line, Ford vs Ferrari), even more lighthearted movies (Knight & Day). 

 

I'm even sure that, aside from those similarities in the premise, Indy V will still be a lot different than Logan.

 

Hence the and the (snark) in my post

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

4 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

And I agree it's lazy writing...let's make our hero miserable so we can redeem him. 

The Picard Manoeuvre. As it were. Although there we make almost all our heroes and heroines miserable so we can redeem them. Unless we kill them off. Die you heroic bastards.

 

It's an interesting observation made earlier in the thread that both this and KOTCS have to deal with Indy ageing/changing in some way whereas the original three films didn't in any meaningful way. I guess Last Crusade got closest with Henry Jones Snr appearing but Indy for me definitely feels like someone you just want to adventure with during a particular period of his life. Sure you can have the odd flashback, but it's not meant to turn into an expanded universe. Even Young Indy is about the places and adventures more than it being about Young Indy becoming actual Indy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

28 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Yep. I can't stand Mutt any more than the next person, but killing him off [...] is just wrong.

 

Isn't this what we've been dreaming of since 2008?

[1977 1,743]

45 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

let's make our hero miserable so we can redeem him

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

oh jesus fucking christ. go away.

 

some of you show your cards way too easily.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Instead of killing Mutt, why not... Just don't mention him? Indy didn't mention Marion in ToD and TLC, neither Short Round and Willie in TLC. Leave it to the audiences to decided what happened with him.

 

Killing him off is just way too dark for an Indiana Jones movie. Aren't those supposed to be fun and swashbuckling?

 

But I guess in the 21st century you can't escape worldbuilding, neither making franchises once known for being escapism entertainment into something "dark and disturbing".

[Bellosh 3,419]

8 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Instead of killing Mutt, why not... Just don't mention him? Indy didn't mention Marion in ToD and TLC, neither Short Round and Willie in TLC. Leave it to the audiences to decided what happened with him.

 

Killing him off is just way too dark for an Indiana Jones movie. Aren't those supposed to be fun and swashbuckling?

 

But I guess in the 21st century you can't escape worldbuilding, neither making franchises once known for being escapism entertainment into something "dark and disturbing".

 

agreed. and the problem is these disney movies have too much of a glossy look to them...so any real serious stuff never truly feels that serious.

[Mephariel 451]

2 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

agreed. and the problem is these movies have too much of a glossy look to them...so any real serious stuff never truly feels that serious.

 

Yep, which is why I am surprised some people have high expectations for this film. You can sell this film anyway you like. A swashbuckling old-fashioned adventure. Whatever. It just looks like a another glossy episodic movie to me. Another entry in a sea full of entries. John Williams is the by far the most artistically brilliant element attached. 

[Jay 37,369]

19 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

oh jesus fucking christ. go away.

 

some of you show your cards way too easily.

 

What is your issue here exactly?  I don't understand your post.

[Bellosh 3,419]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

What is your issue here exactly?  I don't understand your post.

 

come on man, you been under a rock recently?  people being fragile about a female possibly saving the day in Indy 5.

 

that shit looks like it belongs on Facebook

[Jay 37,369]

I didn't interpret his post as having anything to do with a female saving the day, but a jab at the lazy writing of having the protagonist staring out miserable and having to be redeemed by having an adventure with a new character.

[Bellosh 3,419]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

I didn't interpret his post as having anything to do with a female saving the day, but a jab at the lazy writing of having the protagonist staring out miserable and having to be redeemed by a new character.

 

Am I wrong?

 

you might be. you might not be.

 

i'm not giving it the benefit of the doubt though.

 

but talking about 'laziness'.....being sensitive to a female sure would be another lazy reaction from some fans.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

52 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Isn't this what we've been dreaming of since 2008?

You need better dreams my friend.

Have you tried porn before bed?

[Mephariel 451]

1 minute ago, Bellosh said:

 

come on man, you been under a rock recently?  people being fragile about a female possibly saving the day in Indy 5.

 

that shit looks like it belongs on Facebook

 

People are hilarious to me. Women saving the day isn't realistic (and it is true, most of the time it isn't), but a 60 year old secret agent beating an army of trained guys half his age is ok. A 80 year old guy jumping from a moving carriage is realistic. 

 

None of these stuff are realistic enough to break egos you would think.