Popular Post Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 Get yourself a stiff drink and pull up a chair... You're among friends here. Nick1Ø66, Davis, ThePenitentMan1 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 I didn't like that the film ended so quickly. Also, I think Sallah should have had a more substantial role. Davis, Andy and Mr. Hooper 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,892 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Remember how they tossed around the idea of a Connery cameo at the beginning of Crystal Skull, but then decided against it because they knew the audience would be disappointed that he wasn't tagging along for the whole adventure? That's exactly the mistake they made with Sallah in Dial of Destiny. Holko and Davis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Didn't Connery decline because the role was too insubstantial? Mr. Hooper 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 Yeah, Sallah was a tease, and a wasted opportunity. John Rhys-Davies lights up the screen with his jovial presence and rich voice. But that would've taken the focus off Helena. An example of Disney not giving the fans what they want, but telling us what we should want. 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Didn't Connery decline because the role was too insubstantial? I think you're right about that. Jurassic Shark and Davis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,892 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Could be. I thought one of the filmmakers -- Spielberg, Lucas or Marshall maybe -- framed it as a conscious choice they had made during an interview at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 I think I read somewhere that the role wasn't substantial enough to coax Connery out of retirement. Which is too bad. Really a lost opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Andy 5,066 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 LOL this thread. There was no reason to kill Mutt. Seemed cruel and fan servicey. That was unnecessary for Indy’s depression. It did hang over the whole movie a little. Despite, you know, the internet, I’m sure Mutt was a favorite character for some kids growing up with KOTCS. It was also unfixable with the ending. Indy and Marion are back together, but the loss of a child is unspeakable grief. Bayesian, Davis and Mr. Hooper 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 . 1 minute ago, Andy said: LOL this thread. There was no reason to kill Mutt. Seemed cruel and fan servicey. At least they gave the fans what they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 5,066 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Yep. But which fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said: An example of Disney not giving the fans what they want Just now, Andy said: Yep. But which fans? There's many of us. It has less to do with the character and more with the actor. A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 8,680 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, Andy said: It was also unfixable with the ending. Indy and Marion are back together, but the loss of a child is unspeakable grief. Indeed. It was utterly cruel with poor Indy, just as making their son evil was cruel to poor Leia and Han (and even more so to Luke, since it was his fault that Ben became Kylo). 3 minutes ago, Andy said: Seemed cruel and fan servicey Or maybe this is a way of Disney, Lucasfilm and the filmmakers giving the middle finger to Shia? He spoke harshly against KOTCS and recently was accused of sexual assault. Jurassic Shark and Mr. Hooper 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,892 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 11 minutes ago, Andy said: LOL this thread. There was no reason to kill Mutt. Seemed cruel and fan servicey. While I agree that it's not a great story beat, I still found it hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, Andy said: It was also unfixable with the ending. Indy and Marion are back together, but the loss of a child is unspeakable grief. Yeah, Mutt was killed off to drive a wedge between Indy and Marion. But then they get back together in the end, and poor Mutt's still dead! So what the hell was the point of that. A real downer. 5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: It has less to do with the character and more with the actor. I'm not sure I agree with movies being used to enact some kind of social justice or revenge on an actor. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said: I'm not sure I agree with movies being used to enact some kind of social justice or revenge on an actor. I wouldn't call it revenge, but eliminating an employee who wasn't a team player. 5 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said: eah, Mutt was killed off to drive a wedge between Indy and Marion. But then they get back together in the end, and poor Mutt's still dead! So what the hell was the point of that. A real downer. It was also to contribute to Indy's depression at the start of the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: I wouldn't call it revenge, but eliminating an employee who's not a team player. They could have simply recast the role. The controversy surrounding LaBeouf would've easily justified it. 1977 and Davis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Then they could just as well introduce a new character. Which they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edmilson 8,680 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 I don't think Mutt "needed" to be killed in order to give Indy a depression. Just say that he got his own family and moved to somewhere distant (perhaps Hollywood, where he would try to make a career as Tarzan based on his own personal experiences? ) and he and Indy didn't talk to each other in a long time. Killing him is... just too cruel. No pain is greater to a father than losing a son, especially if he only lived with that son for approx. 10 years and even more so if, as the film implies, Mutt left to war estranged from his father. But I guess the militants on Twitter and culture war combatants wouldn't forgive Disney if they didn't punish Shia. Davis, Mr. Hooper and Andy 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: It was also to contribute to Indy's depression at the start of the film. It would've been enough to have him depressed about facing old age and irrelevance. Destroying his family was overkill and unnecessarily harsh. Andy and Davis 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 5,066 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 There are plenty of ways to not have Mutt in the film but exist offscreen. We are letting the behind the scenes behavior dictate the story? No, that’s just wrong. This was also a middle finger to George who I suppose wrote the character, and ill-fitting for a character who like it or not bears the name of Henry Jones III. Mr. Hooper and Davis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said: It would've been enough to have him depressed about facing old age and irrelevance. Destroying his family was overkill and unnecessarily harsh. Not for a film with this budget. Then you need extra emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Not for a film with this budget. Then you need extra emotion. Okay, that just makes no sense. 6 minutes ago, Andy said: This was also a middle finger to George who I suppose wrote the character, and ill-fitting for a character who like it or not bears the name of Henry Jones III. Eliminating Mutt also means he can't be the next Indy, leaving the path wide open for Helena to take over, which was clearly the intent. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Bigger, grander. Things need to be turned up to 11. Or that's what they think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edmilson 8,680 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 Actually, thinking about it, killing Mutt may not have been due to Shia's offscreen antics but more to Mangold himself. Just look at Logan: a dark and gritty movie that, set in the future of the Fox X-Men universe (or whatever that was), gave those characters a depressing future. Wolverine is just a grumpy old guy who can't wait to finally lose his cure powers and die, Professor X is demented and is responsible for destroying the X-Men, mutants are forgotten and on the brink of extinction, the world is shit, etc. Maybe that's just Mangold's thing: he likes to take his characters from the lowest point in their lives (Logan, Indy) and then make the relutant partners of a plucky female (X-23, Helena) on an adventure that will make them... slightly less depressed or something. And just as Logan died in the end of his movie, Indy almost "died" in the end of his, but that was changed to something more... crowdpleasing? Davis, DarthDementous and Mr. Hooper 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterTech 1,172 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 I doubt Mutt was ever going to have a role the moment Shia spoke out against KotCS (and thus pissed off Spielberg in particular), but then apparently he was simply never mentioned in the early Koepp solo drafts (once again making me wonder for what he still kept his credit for). Given that, I do end up wondering if this was supposed to be a repeat of that plot point in Logan, where the two remaining X-Men mourn the loss of those that died in Xavier's fatal mind power outbursts. Thing is: the equivalent scene in that movie, where they specifically allude to Jean in particular being the one Wolverine is mourning, was cut, leaving me to wonder what the function here was supposed to be if they figured they could lose it in that movie without issues. Ah darn, I was beaten to this observation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 5,066 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 I really really enjoyed the film. That said, I found Shaunette Renee Wilson’s character endlessly more compelling and watchable than Bridges, who was good but not immediately likable. I really wish they had somehow made Mason his sidekick. Her wardrobe and demeanor were badass and she seemed more 1969 than any other character. Jurassic Shark and Badzeee 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,427 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said: Yeah, Mutt was killed off to drive a wedge between Indy and Marion. But then they get back together in the end, and poor Mutt's still dead! So what the hell was the point of that. A real downer. One thing that having that death in the movie did was amplify the motivation for Indy wanting to remain with Archimedes. Unfortunately, the motivation was entirely depressing — an archaeologist whose marriage had failed due to the loss of their son, whose goddaughter was a thieving reprobate with no appreciation for the very field he spent his whole life in, and whose career had just ended in the most downbeat manner possible (the man didn’t even earn emeritus prof status after everything he’d done??)… given all that, do you blame him for wanting to live out the rest of his life in an archaeological playground like historical Syracuse? (And then Helena steals even that from him.) This culmination was actually very touching and well done, and I remember choking up a bit when I watched it in the theater. Problem is, these story beats are completely wrong for an Indiana Jones movie. You’re not supposed to feel bad for him. Is a 10-yr-old kid supposed to appreciate the subtleties of a character arc like that? Davis and Mr. Hooper 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 5 hours ago, Andy said: Bridges, who was good but not immediately likable. It was the opposite for me. I liked her in their first scene together at the bar, when she was misrepresenting herself. lol Then we got to see who she really was, which was basically obnoxious and selfish. And I guess she grew a conscience somewhere along the way, and made up for what she put Indy through by reuniting him with Marion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HunterTech 1,172 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 Helena: the most confusing character because I don't know what the actual arc ended up being. I can audibly hear Mangold randomly throwing in ideas every few minutes for threads they could elaborate on, but don't. So I'm left with someone whose core flaws are really the only thing they enunciate without much of a proper journey to accompany them, a near complete opposite trajectory from where Rey from the ST ended up going. Mr. Hooper, Nick1Ø66, Holko and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 I thought Boyd Holbrook offered very little to be honest Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 Just now, Alex said: I thought Boyd Holkbrook offered very little to be honest He was a rather forgettable henchman. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 8,680 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 He played the exact same part that he did in Logan. Really. Just another thing that makes me think Mangold wanted to do Logan again, but with Indy. Or maybe that's exactly what Disney execs asked of him. GerateWohl and Davis 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterTech 1,172 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Except he was more gleeful/charismatically evil in Logan, especially since at least he's fairly upfront about what his goals in the film are (plus actually gets to be the lead antagonist for a good while). In DoD, he really just feels like a trigger happy hired hand and nothing more. Does he have any thoughts about his boss, his beliefs, and the gig as a whole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 Who cares? As you say, he's just a hired hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 5,715 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 11 minutes ago, HunterTech said: Does he have any thoughts about his boss, his beliefs, and the gig as a whole? I don't think introspection is something most villains are looking for in their henchmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TolkienSS 449 Posted December 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 26, 2023 There's nothing to be disenchanted about with Indiana Jones. It's three awesome movies and a bonus one. The pathetic 2023 Indy parody is lowbrow Disney dreck, and too irrelevant to be in the same category. At most it'll be shown in future classes on the ideologization of modern entertainment, with a sticker "for educational purposes only". 1977, Nick1Ø66, Trope and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterTech 1,172 Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 19 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: I don't think introspection is something most villains are looking for in their henchmen. Well I don't know what people want out of the actor then, besides I suppose displaying more traits of the sorts of disposable villains the previous films would've had. Is he better or worse than the goons from KotCS? The ants were a memorable death, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 26, 2023 Author Share Posted December 26, 2023 24 minutes ago, HunterTech said: Well I don't know what people want out of the actor then, besides I suppose displaying more traits of the sorts of disposable villains the previous films would've had. He really has no discernible character trait that I can remember, and is like a stock henchman from the old Incredible Hulk TV show. But his boss is so bland himself that I guess they couldn't make him too flashy. 54 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Who cares? As you say, he's just a hired hand. We expect more from our big-budget movies! Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bellosh 3,839 Posted December 27, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 27, 2023 Disenchantment threads, I hate these topics ThePenitentMan1, A. A. Ron, Edmilson and 2 others 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hooper 3,106 Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Bellosh said: Disenchantment threads, I hate these topics Well, I just started it as a joking response to the discord on another thread. I won't mind if it sinks down the topics list and disappears. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ThePenitentMan1 1,007 Posted December 27, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 27, 2023 Mark my words, Indy 5 was actually brilliant, and people will realize that when Indy 6 (which has already been filmed and scored!) picks up the plot threads begun in Indy 5! /s A. A. Ron, Trope, Mr. Hooper and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 21 hours ago, Bayesian said: One thing that having that death in the movie did was amplify the motivation for Indy wanting to remain with Archimedes. Unfortunately, the motivation was entirely depressing — an archaeologist whose marriage had failed due to the loss of their son, whose goddaughter was a thieving reprobate with no appreciation for the very field he spent his whole life in, and whose career had just ended in the most downbeat manner possible (the man didn’t even earn emeritus prof status after everything he’d done??)… given all that, do you blame him for wanting to live out the rest of his life in an archaeological playground like historical Syracuse? (And then Helena steals even that from him.) This culmination was actually very touching and well done, and I remember choking up a bit when I watched it in the theater. Problem is, these story beats are completely wrong for an Indiana Jones movie. You’re not supposed to feel bad for him. Is a 10-yr-old kid supposed to appreciate the subtleties of a character arc like that? Given how Indiana Jones was turned into such a depressing, pathetic loser at his old age, he could’ve just killed himself, drinking himself to death or hanging himself with his whip. I mean seriously, guys, what a moronic depiction of a classic character who is known for being one of the most optimistic, strong and lighthearted heroes in film history? Shame on Disney for having made this pos. The one thing DoD managed to achieve was to make people find new appreciation for KotCS. Maybe that was Spielberg’s intention all along. If so, he succeeded admirably. Because even KotCS is a much better IJ film than DoD. I thought I couldn’t possibly find more appreciation for the first three films, but it turns out I can. This garbage Disney film has made me value them even more and feel blessed to own them on physical format and to be able to watch and enjoy them any time I want, and pretend that DoD (and even KotCS) never happened, and my greatest fictional hero riding off into the sunset with his Dad and friends is how one of the greatest cinematic adventures ends. Mr. Hooper and 1977 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GerateWohl 4,972 Posted December 27, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 27, 2023 10 hours ago, Bayesian said: One thing that having that death in the movie did was amplify the motivation for Indy wanting to remain with Archimedes. Unfortunately, the motivation was entirely depressing — an archaeologist whose marriage had failed due to the loss of their son, whose goddaughter was a thieving reprobate with no appreciation for the very field he spent his whole life in, and whose career had just ended in the most downbeat manner possible (the man didn’t even earn emeritus prof status after everything he’d done??)… given all that, do you blame him for wanting to live out the rest of his life in an archaeological playground like historical Syracuse? (And then Helena steals even that from hi In a way Ford repriesed the same part as in The Force Awakens, the old desperated former adventurer, whose marriage broke up over the loss of his son. If the Star Wars movie would have focussed more on that frustrated old man, TFA would have suffered the same way. Luckily TFA was carried more by Daisy Ridley, John Boyega and Adam Driver, so grumpy old Han was just a side character who just had to die to stop depressing the audience. Bayesian, Davis, Mr. Hooper and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Groovygoth666 971 Posted December 27, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted December 27, 2023 I think Mike and Rich from RLM summed it up perfectly a few years ago - As far as Mutt goes, I thought there was good chemistry between Harrison and Shia, I enjoyed their back and forths as unknowing father and son. I don't buy for a second that Mutt would sign up to fight in Vietnam just to spite Indy though. He seemingly had a problem with authority so joining the military doesn't fit his character. But hitting the open road on his motorbike and just not coming back feels more in tune with how he'd react to whatever fight they had. Indy can still feel a failure, even acknowledge his troubled relationship with his dad. But if Mutt HAD to die to get Indy where they wanted him, it should of been in the opening. Start the film with Indy and Mutt on an adventure that's not connected to the main story, recast if Shia's not interested/problematic, have him killed at the end of the prologue but treat it seriously, make it have weight that way people get to have some fun and nostalgia for the first three films where the opening was a one off adventure, but having it end there sets the audience up to fully understand where Indy is when the main story starts. Davis, ThePenitentMan1, Holko and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 Dude, we can't have two prologues. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 971 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 Not with that attitude Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 14 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Dude, we can't have two prologues. You just can’t help it, can you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenitentMan1 1,007 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 But I already bought the ring! Groovygoth666 and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 42 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Dude, you literally created your own Indiana Jones thread because you couldn’t take criticism, yet you keep arguing with people in this thread. How hypocritical is that? :-) Just stop, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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