The Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade Enchantment Thread

[JTN 2,030]

I’ve been amazed by how many people prefer The Last Crusade to Raiders. John Williams’ score definitely makes it a great contender for the top spot of the franchise. The amazing chemistry and family dynamics between Ford and Connery is another winning element of TLC. 
 

Let’s confess our love for the perfect ending to the Indiana Jones Trilogy where after their greatest adventure, Indy, his Dad and friends ride off into the sunset, having found illumination and new appreciation for their loved ones.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I LOVE the Raiders score. And I LOVE Temple of Doom. But deep down I feel TLC is my favorite Indy score ever. It's frankly magnificent. The Grail Theme, no matter how sad I'm feeling in a day, it always put me in a brighter mood. It's just so warm and wholesome.

 

Anyway, all the first three Indy scores are film music perfection. I love them all for different reasons.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

I kinda regard 'The Last Crusade' as "Indiana Jones lite"...

 

'Raiders' had an edge, and 'Temple of Doom' went too dark, so Spielberg made a more "palatable" sequel for general tastes.

 

It's not bland by any means...just not exciting to me in the way the previous two were. But I still wouldn't change a thing about it.

[LB Makes Stuff 240]

I liked the music and chemistry. But I do agree with the sentiment that it is (as some call it) “Diet Raiders”. The tone is a lighter version of Raiders. The villains are a light version of Raiders’ villains. And the music is a lighter version of Raiders in a sense.

 

New themes are fun, and so are the action cues, but they never quite reach the edge that Raiders had.

 

The Nazi theme in Raiders was nasty and evil, Crusade’s is almost cartoonish in its sound and isn’t very intimidating to me.

 

Grail theme is wonderful and mysterious and does have one of the best moments in any Indy score (leap of faith buildup) and is on par with the Ark theme.

 

Father / Son theme is good, lost its value in Crystal Skull with the unneeded quote at the end.

 

But! No swooping femme fatale theme?

F-

Bad John. DoD better.

[Groovygoth666 670]

I often go between this and Raider's being my favourite of the Indy films. 

 

Getting to see it on the big screen really reminded me that this is how these films are supposed to be seen. 

 

Williams score is perhaps the most thematic of the series here. You got Indys theme of course, but Henry Snr, Grail and Nazi used throughout, and I'm sure there's others. 

 

The chemistry between Ford and Connery is of course a stand out. Also seeing both Marcus and Sallah utilised as well and how well they fit into the dynamic gives some great moments. 

 

Alison Doodys Elsa, what a great twist on her character. It's a shame also, it really feels like there's something so much more that could of been done. With her sorrow at the book burning scene and her earlier scenes with Indy she's arguably the most complex Indy girl. Between her, Marion and Willie it's certainly clear Indy likes strong women. 

 

Also the opening, an Indy origin story, that whole train sequence is just a fantastic visual feast. The stunt work is incredibly impressive, watching the various characters moving along the train with plenty of musical flourishes from Williams is a great example of the score and film working together. Love the setting up of the difficult relationship between Jr and Snr briefly before transitioning to the "present" as well. 

 

Donovan was also a great foil to Indy. I'll never forget watching this for the first time, seeing the camera pan in on the chair and hearing his voice "Because he didn't take my advice" what a reveal! Belloq and Donovan both allied themselves with the Nazis, and while both were opportunists Donovan was the one who knew to keep it secret and let Indy do the work. 

 

And the stunts in this film. Say what you will about the desert chase in Raider's but the whole sequence beginning with the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword and the tank sequence, just watching Indy on horseback before getting on the tank and fighting Vogel all in camera and on location just sells it not too mention the ending of the scene with that sincere line from Connery "I never told him anything". 

 

Speaking of stunts the boat chase in Venice and the Jones escaping the Castle and Blimp are great roller-coasters of scenes. Not to mention the dialogue during all three. It's even the minor details like when Henry Snr adjusts his watch and gives Jr a disapproving look following their escape before stopping to discuss going after the grail diary. 

 

Then there's the whole facing the three challenges, Indys primary motivation being to save his father, no fortune and glory here, focused on saving his dad and using his knowledge to save him. 

 

Also the little moments, I can't praise enough the scene on the blimp where Indy talks about regret of what their relationship is and how Henry Snr is confused and points out that he enabled Indy to become who he is. Just top notch performances from both actors. 

 

There is just so much to praise about this film, and while Raiders is the first this arguably perfects and builds upon what an Indiana Jones film should be, but that riding off into the sunset with the tension between his father resolved and Williams sending us off it feels like a definitive ending. 

 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

When Crusade came out I didn't like it that much. For sure less than Temple of Doom. I found it too silly. Marcus Brody suddenly had turned into a comedy jerk after being a serious character in Raiders. And again a pure repetition of the Nazi plot from Raiders, really? In the previous two movies it looked to me like they took much more care with all contemporary equipment and settings. For example, the scene where Jones and Jones Snr. discuss where to go next in front of a signpost with one arrow to Berlin and the other one to Venice was just silly. 

The traps at the temple in the end were really not as ancient as the were supposed to be. 

And big disappointment for me as a young boy, Indy hardly used his whip.

And the prologue with young Indy is still my least favourite of the three.

 

But some years later I sat in a cinema again watching all three movies in a row and there I started appreciating the lightness and the humor of the third movie. It had obviously aged better than Temple of Doom for me.

[Schilkeman 964]

I love Crusade, but I think it is second to Raiders, if only because the structure of it is rather dull. It feels like a long string of chase scenes, not unlike Raiders, but not as well done. It’s the father/son stuff that sells the movie. Connery and Ford are a lot of fun to watch, and the writing has heart.

[Andy 4,138]

16 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

But I still wouldn't change a thing about it.

There are lots of things I would change. Should I start a Disenchantment Thread?

 

This film has awesome performances. I think it’s real strength is the script.  So many great one liners. It may be the most quotable of all the IJ films. 
 

But like @GerateWohl, I was disappointed with it when it came out.  But this is an Enchantment thread. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

3 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

It feels like a long string of chase scenes, not unlike Raiders, but not as well done.

That's a criticism I'd direct at 'Dial of Destiny'.

 

8 minutes ago, Andy said:

There are lots of things I would change. Should I start a Disenchantment Thread?

Yes, now would be the time. They're popping up like daisies.

[Andy 4,138]

Not sure each film needs two threads. And now Dial has, what, two appreciation threads? It’s getting messy. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

17 minutes ago, Andy said:

Not sure each film needs two threads. And now Dial has, what, two appreciation threads? It’s getting messy. 

 

One of them is a joke appreciation thread.

[Edmilson 7,466]

And the other one is serious? 

[Bellosh 3,419]

I remember as a kid I finally decided to try to fake being sick from school for a day. I think I learned it from E.T.

 

Anyways it worked...parents left for work. At around 10am The Last Crusade came on the USA channel. You can not convince a 10 year old me that I wasn't along for the adventure with the Joneses that morning/afternoon.

 

The score, complete score that is, is one of my favorite listening experiences. It takes you around the world.  I slightly disagree with the riding out into the sunset is the best ending.  I actually prefer the KOTCS grabbing the hat from Mutt.  It was perfect to me....but Finale & End Credits to me is the final send off for Indy on score.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I like the ending of KOTCS. Indy finding and son and finally marrying the love of his life, while still being open to adventures (as stated by him grabbing the hat) is a nice ending for the character.

[JTN 2,030]

Not better than the classic heroic ending of TLC, but it has a redeeming quality after all the crazy stuff, and Indy and Marion getting married puts a huge smile on every Indy fan's face. This should really have been the end for the saga, because you couldn't possibly end it on a more positive and cheerful note. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I like the ending of KOTCS. Indy finding and son and finally marrying the love of his life, while still being open to adventures (as stated by him grabbing the hat) is a nice ending for the character.

It doesn't hold a candle to him grabbing his hat off a clothesline.

 

 

/s

[Bellosh 3,419]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It doesn't hold a candle to him grabbing his hat off a clothesline.

 

 

/s

 

lol.  the fact that Mangold went with another 'grabbing' of the hat....ugh.  Not to mention it's not handled with grace or subtly like KOTCS.

 

the grabbing of the hat in Dial felt like the first and only time the franchise broke the 4th wall.  Why in the world would Indy need to grab the hat so fast in that moment?

 

I'm not entirely against the idea of breaking the 4th wall, but when you can't truly tell if it is or not...that's gotta be on the directors inability to execute something.   Spielberg never left you thinking, cause these movies don't need ambiguity.

 

KOTCS's ending put the biggest smile on my face back then, shit even look at the smiles of the actors.  Just genuine happiness.  Even Shia.

 

 

[JTN 2,030]

To me The Last Crusade is mainly about a son and a father rediscovering their love for one another. It's Ford and Connery whose onscreen family relationship makes this film shine. Whenever they are together, it's either comedy gold or very moving dad-son moment. They are just fantastic together. 

Ever since I've lost my Dad, this film has gotten even closer to my heart. When Henry holds Indy's hand in the temple and for the first time calls him on his nickname "Indiana", twice, Indy instantly knows that he HAS TO listen to his Father this once. "Let it go..." The wisest piece of advice a father can give to his son. To let go of all the fame and fortune he has chased all his life. To find illumination and peace. And Indy understands. He gets it, gives up on the grail. Even he can change after all these years of crazy adventures and treasure hunts. That's a beautiful message that resonates with me very much, and puts this film on the same level as Raiders, or perhaps even better for me. Because it's not just about adventure, but about family and connection. A very powerful and important message, that young boys and their fathers need now more than ever. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

15 hours ago, LB Makes Stuff said:

But! No swooping femme fatale theme?

F-

Bad John. DoD better.

At least she has a noirish motif...

[Bellosh 3,419]

what i love in retrospect to the father/son relationship in TLC is that it's a very 'low-stakes' relationship/idea at first.  you don't really care that his dad is missing at first, and shit, when Indy arrives in Venice he's immediately goes back to being a dog when he sees Elsa ( CAN'T BLAME HIM)....

 

but the film develops their relationship ON SCREEN that heck, even Raiders never truly did with Marion ------ but again Raiders was never really supposed to do that, it was always supposed to be a 'hop into this characters world, and just buckle up".  And of course Doom is something entirely on it's own.

 

TLC did bring this series into a deeper emotional circle for the character, and that's okay --- when it's handled like Crusade.  Because when Henry Sr. is shot at the end, it's VERY HIGH STAKES, and you're invested because we saw stuff on screen...

 

With KOTCS (Spielberg is NOT off the hook) and Dial, all the deep emotional stuff happens off screen with little to no effort to putting resolutions ON SCREEN. It's all buttoned up way too quick.  And that's why those films just can't hold a candle to the other 3.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

5 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

the grabbing of the hat in Dial felt like the first time and only time the franchise breaking the 4th wall.  Why in the world would Indy need to grab the hat so fast in that moment?

I'm not joking here, but what ran through my head was that the kissing in the kitchen led to some mattress spring squeaking, and Indy likes to wear his hat. 
 

9 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

 

Unmistakably Spielbergian. He just knows how to create moments, however small, that stir up feelings in a viewer. And of course, Williams' music takes us the rest of the way.

[Bellosh 3,419]

Just now, Mr. Hooper said:

I'm not joking here, but what ran through my head was that the kissing in the kitchen led to some mattress spring squeaking, and Indy likes to wear his hat. 

 

i've read this theory bed-time story too!  And its like WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!?! sloppy sloppy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

And the other one is serious? 

 

100%.

[Edmilson 7,466]

We need more enchantment threads. Not for DoD, but for things in general. 

 

The Titanic Appreciation thread (film and score)

The Disney Star Wars Appreciation Thread

The Marvel Cinematic Universe Appreciation Thread

The DC Extended Universe Appreciation Thread

The Lorne Balfe Appreciation Thread

 

etc

[oierem 152]

10 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I love Crusade, but I think it is second to Raiders, if only because the structure of it is rather dull. It feels like a long string of chase scenes, not unlike Raiders, but not as well done. It’s the father/son stuff that sells the movie. Connery and Ford are a lot of fun to watch, and the writing has heart.

 

The structure of Crusade is, at least on paper, perfectly balanced.

Each 20-minute segment has a beginning, middle and a chase at the end. 

Part 1: Double prologue.

Part 2: Venice and the boat chase.

Part 3: Nazi castle and the motocycle chase.

Part 4: Berlin and the aereal chase.

Part 5: Desert and the tank chase.

Part 6: Emotional climax.

 

It's way more "perfect" than any of the other two films.

Which is why it feels almost "too" neat.

[Bellosh 3,419]

When the Concord set arrived in 2008...I remember it was a really cold November night.  I got home from work, grabbed it from my mail and immediately got back in my car. 

 

I opened it up and smelled it of course (I like the smell of new packaging, it's like pissing in the shower, everyone does it but nobody admits to it...)

 

Anyway I quickly threw in Temple of Doom just to hear short round helps and the broken bridge/British relief cues....then it was on to the main feature....The Last Crusade.

 

After being so used to the bootlegs, everything I was hearing sounded so fucking perfect. It felt like a holy grail was in my then 2008 Corollas CD player.

 

I quickly went straight to On The Tank and I think I listened to that cue maybe 20x in a row.  I drove around for like maybe 3 hours that night listening to The Last Crusade.

 

Great times.  Now I'm just a jaded motherfucker angry at The Mouse© for reissuing it all.

[JTN 2,030]

4 hours ago, Bellosh said:

I quickly went straight to On The Tank and I think I listened to that cue maybe 20x in a row.  I drove around for like maybe 3 hours that night listening to The Last Crusade.

 

[Jay 37,369]

16 hours ago, Bellosh said:

When the Concord set arrived in 2008...I remember it was a really cold November night.  I got home from work, grabbed it from my mail and immediately got back in my car. 

 

I opened it up and smelled it of course (I like the smell of new packaging, it's like pissing in the shower, everyone does it but nobody admits to it...)

 

Anyway I quickly threw in Temple of Doom just to hear short round helps and the broken bridge/British relief cues....then it was on to the main feature....The Last Crusade.

 

After being so used to the bootlegs, everything I was hearing sounded so fucking perfect. It felt like a holy grail was in my then 2008 Corollas CD player.

 

I quickly went straight to On The Tank and I think I listened to that cue maybe 20x in a row.  I drove around for like maybe 3 hours that night listening to The Last Crusade.

 

Great times. 

 

Remember when the forums went down right around when the Concord box came out, and when it came back we had lost all our initial posts about it?
 

Fun times

[JTN 2,030]

Did you write this comment in all the other Indiana Jones threads, too?
 

Why were losing all the posts of the forum members about the Concord Box Set fun times? 
 

If I lost all your posts, I wouldn’t call it fun times, I would consider it sad times.

 

[Jay 37,369]

It wasn't fun, it was the opposite. I was being sarcastic.

[JTN 2,030]

Yes I know it obviously is, and I'm curious why you are being sarcastic? Because I started an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade Enchantment thread after other members started an Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom Enchantment Thread or an Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny Enchantment Thread? You were OK with all those threads, but you aren't with the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade Enchantment Thread?

Btw I'm not trying to start a fight with you, the mod, but you were being sarcastic and I would just like to know why. 

[Jay 37,369]

What are you talking about? Bellosh shared a memory of getting the Concord box in 2008, so I shared a memory in response.  I didn't even know what thread I'm in.

[JTN 2,030]

Oh, OK, sorry, I didn't know you were replying to his post, since you didn't quote him, just wrote it like you meant it to me as my post was above yours. Thanks for clarifying!

 

 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

A sign of the times - I remember KM declaring the set was 'perfect' when we incorrectly thought that the full film version of the ToD ending was on there.

 

Even taking the sound issues out of the equation, the Concord box was seen as the best thing ever.

[Jay 37,369]

It was amazing to get all that TOD and TLC music after years of doing anything possible to hear more than what was on their OST albums, from bootlegs to video game rips to just ripping the rear channels of the actual movies on DVD.  There was even a rip from TOD's laserdisc before the DVDs IIRC

[Richard Penna 3,694]

It's a bit more surprising that Indy hasn't been done properly than SW because Indy has at least been expanded once and so the shock for Williams of going from his curated baby to the C&C score isn't as big.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I still like the Concord sets, warts and all. But I hope something even better will come out in the future.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

You'll have to excuse JTW, he's been drinking too much disenchantment brew.

[Jay 37,369]

2 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

It's a bit more surprising that Indy hasn't been done properly than SW because Indy has at least been expanded once and so the shock for Williams of going from his curated baby to the C&C score isn't as big.

 

But Star Wars hasn't been done properly either, not the modern standards of catalog restoration set by Mike and Neil and the like.

 

The old SW and Indy expansions from 1993, 1995, 1997, and 2008 were remarkable for their times but nowhere near up to modern standards.  I'm sure they would have been revisited by now if Disney hadn't bought Lucasfilm.  John Williams isn't the roadblock for these scores, Disney is.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

You may have misinterpreted what I said - I know neither have been done properly, but I'm a bit more surprised that after Indy's had a relatively modern expansion of sorts, Williams isn't more open to going the whole way.

 

I'm fairly happy with my exactly 1 hour LC playlist but some of it is a little wobbly on the audio and it'd be nice to remake a curated playlist using materials from a Hook-style rebuilt expansion.

[Jay 37,369]

But he is more open.  Why do you think he's not?

[JTN 2,030]

35 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

You'll have to excuse JTW, he's been drinking too much disenchantment brew.

So much that I had to create an enchantment thread.  

I was confused, but I'm always first to acknowledge my error and never fail to apologize for it. I just wish others would do that more often, too. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Jay said:

John Williams isn't the roadblock for these scores, Disney is.

EXACTLY.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

23 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

You'll have to excuse JTW, he's been drinking too much disenchantment brew.

[Edmilson 7,466]

32 minutes ago, Jay said:

John Williams isn't the roadblock for these scores, Disney is.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

28 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Williams isn't more open to going the whole way.

 

Well for Daisy he is.

[JTN 2,030]

Just because your profile pic is Dr. Zhivago, it doesn't mean that everyone has to be unfaithful.  

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

He clearly meant to write Disney.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Just because your profile pic is Dr. Zhivago, it doesn't mean that everyone has to be unfaithful.  

 

I was referring to JW "going the whole way", as in finishing what he started and scoring Daisy's new trilogy.

 

Some of you need to get your minds out of the gutter.

[Bellosh 3,419]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

 

Remember when the forums went down right around when the Concord box came out, and when it came back we had lost all our initial posts about it?
 

Fun times

 

i don't remember that, but that's funny!  i was just lurking back in 2008.

[JTN 2,030]

4 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I was referring to JW "going the whole way", as in finishing what he stared and scoring Daisy's new trilogy.

Okey dokey, Dr. Zhivago.