What scores have been ruined for you by their expansion?

[Holko 9,639]

8 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

That logic would only apply to wall-to-wall scores. But my initial question was not about what is basically better, OST or C&C, but if you experienced a good score losing strength and charm in C&C form like pouring water into the good wine.

I was responding to the post before mine.

 

4 minutes ago, JTN said:

How could the music the same composer wrote to the same film be water?

I see the idea on paper, if an OST contained all the highlights and interesting material and an expansion would add nothing but repeats and filler then you could feel that it sucks. I can't think of any score where I had this experience (helps that I usually just wait for a proper release and "ignore" the score instead of forcing myself to like the OST ) but I can grasp the concept.

[JTN 2,329]

There are some highly repetitive, monothematic scores where the composer basically repeats the same melody over and over again, but that too can be written in an interesting, intriguing way where the listener doesn’t get bored by having to listen to the same theme again and again.

But overall I must say that like with the film where every scene adds something to the narrative and the story evolves and has an arch, the same thing is true for the score: nothing is and should be just a filler, but it should add something new to the musical narrative. If the composer is talented of course.

 

With that said I do like OSTs for the same reason I like expansions. If I like the score, I enjoy it in its short and long form. A good score is good both as an OST and as an expansion. More like good as an OST and great in its complete form. Again, “complete” means how the composer originally conceived and intended.

[Schilkeman 1,033]

18 minutes ago, JTN said:

Again, “complete” means how the composer originally intended.

Well, this is debatable. In Williams' and Goldsmith's case, they often viewed the OST as the "intended" way to listen to the score by itself, and to be listened to in full with the film itself. I'm not saying they're right, although I agree with it, but intended is an ill-defined concept. As originally conceived? Music in film is strange, as it's really the only element of the movie-going experience that can be successfully removed from the film for isolated enjoyment.

[ThePenitentMan1 826]

48 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

Well, this is debatable. In Williams' and Goldsmith's case, they often viewed the OST as the "intended" way to listen to the score by itself, and to be listened to in full with the film itself.

 

The composer's intentions for the album presentation can't really be called the "original" intention, as they, by their very definition, were decided after the music was composed and recorded.

 

48 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

I'm not saying they're right, although I agree with it, but intended is an ill-defined concept. As originally conceived?

 

Yes, as originally conceived.

 

Take the cues as they were recorded, overlap any cues that were designed to do so in the film, and don't overlap the cues that weren't.  Throw any interesting additional material into the bonus section.

 

It gets more complex when you factor in things like making sure you have the correct film take edits and the like, but at it's most basic concept it really is pretty straightforward.

[JTN 2,329]

Thankfully that’s just what specialty labels do, so yay.

[GerateWohl 4,539]

15 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

The composer's intentions for the album presentation can't really be called the "original" intention, as they, by their very definition, were decided after the music was composed and recorded.

It is the original intention of the composer at the first time he or she thinks about how to experience the music on its own without the picture.

[Schilkeman 1,033]

20 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

The composer's intentions for the album presentation can't really be called the "original" intention, as they, by their very definition, were decided after the music was composed and recorded.

This is my entire point. The minute a score is removed from the film, it is no longer being listened to as intended. Some composers arrange material for a "better listening experience." To listen to the music itself, this is their inention, but of course, the real inention is that it be listened to with the film, which is why I said it was debatable, and see this whole excercise an amusing brand of nonsense. Presenting both, as the labels do, solves the issue for the consumer, at least.

[Richard Penna 3,804]

1 hour ago, JTN said:

How could the music the same composer wrote to the same film be water?

 

Pretty easily... I look at a composer writing a 3 hour score for an epic adventure/fantasy, and unless things go really well, at some point they're going to find time working against them and needing to write 5-6 minutes of music every day. And maybe the director asks for score in places where maybe it doesn't really need it - add both of those things and you can easily end up with a masterpiece of a score where perhaps 10% of that material doesn't really excite as much when heard standalone.

 

In response to the OP, one that comes to mind is JNH's King Kong. Howard made a brilliant OST with most of the major highlights and the complete score really doesn't add anything notable for me aside from a few cues.

 

Also Naked Gun - I have Varese's initial album and LLL's set, and it didn't take me very long to condense the two into a very compact EP that Thor would be proud of.

[JTN 2,329]

47 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

It is the original intention of the composer at the first time he or she thinks about how to experience the music on its own without the picture.

But not the original intention of the composer when composing the music. 

[Richard Penna 3,804]

4 hours ago, JTN said:

Honestly there shouldn’t even be “expansions” and “OSTs”, just OSTs that would be what the expansions are now.

 

I'm going to agree with Thor on one element here - a curated album made in whatever way the composer wants should be available, if that's what they want. In many cases that's the ideal way to understand and process a score.

 

But it should be accompanied by the complete score. No ifs, no buts, no waiting a few years to "allow listeners to appreciate the curated representation of the work". That way those who like the album are happy, and those who watch the film and instantly love the score can instantly buy the entire thing.

[JTN 2,329]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

The minute a score is removed from the film, it is no longer being listened to as intended.

But film music is almost always listened to as a companion piece to the visual medium it was created for. When one listens to a score or a certain cue, they imagine the scene it was written to. You cannot completely separate the music from the film, because the whole point of the creation of the music was the film. To serve the film, to help tell its story. Therefore film music is enjoyed the most or best by those who have seen the film and have the images in their mind and can connect the music to them. Some scores work for those who haven’t seen the film, but not as effectively as for those who know the film. 
 

That’s why most film music fans like to listen to scores in chronological order, because while they’re listening to the music, they watch the film in their head. And also, good scores are built that way structurally, they have a structure, a frame, and listening to them chronologically maximizes the listening experience. A good example for this is E.T., where the main theme is only hinted at several cues, and we only hear it in its entirity and majesty, fully fleshed out at the very end. Switching the order up would spoil the entire purpose of the build-up the composer intended. This score can be enjoyed the most when listening to it in chronological order.

[Richard Penna 3,804]

I'd have thought the opposite would result from your above point. Once you disconnect the score from the film, and particularly for those who haven't seen the film, a huge sequence may suddenly feel disconnected and too abstract, whereas if you cut that down to the main areas of interest (i.e. primary ideas, thematic statements, etc) then it often plays far better in isolation. You can't play a film in your head if you've never seen it, and even the best composers will rarely produce music that's interesting in isolation for the entire film.

[Holko 9,639]

I dunno, I've heard many scores I haven't seen the films to, only read some plot summary or not even that at worst, a track-by track event breakdown in the booklet at best, and I have no huge problems with making up a movie in my head or just appreciating the music's structure anyway. And then when I sometimes watch some scenes from the movie after... well, I definitely prefer my imagination in many cases.

[JTN 2,329]

That’s why I said most scores, not all scores, and most people, not everyone. There are always exceptions. But in general that’s how scores can be enjoyed the most, since

they were written for a visual medium that tells a story, and the music tells that same story. Of course they can be enjoyed on their own, even without knowing the films they were written to. A prime example for this case is John Williams.

 

In my case, I can definitely enjoy a score more if I have seen the film. The more I’ve seen it, and the more I like it, the more I enjoy the score. But maybe that’s just me, I don’t know.

[Richard Penna 3,804]

Oh that definitely happens sometimes, yes. I'd suggest that it's a bit of a minority of cases though that a full, intended score works great for listening, right out of the box, context-free.

[GerateWohl 4,539]

For my taste many comments here are too much just the soundtrack geek consumer perspective.

A proper soundtrack release should contain of the complete and cronological format plus a smart dedicatedly recorded OST assembly plus concert arrangements of all major themes plus a 10 to 20 minutes soundtrack suite plus a full bonus disc of alternates and piano demos, PLEASE.

 

This leaves out completely the vision of the musical artist who publishes an album. Because that is how I tend to see these comosers in the first place.

If I see the soundtrack just a promotional article of a movie, then this C&C request makes more sense.

 

But normally musicians put out albums. When they become classics years later I get these special editions with lost tracks, b-sides, demos etc.

John Williams is such a classic icon, where this makes sense.

But in the first place it is an artist making an album and it is up to him or her, what is on it and what not.

And even the ommissions on the album are artistical decisions, that I might disagree with.

But I miss a little the respect in front of the artists work.

[Holko 9,639]

21 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

 

This leaves out completely the vision of the musical artist who publishes an album.

But unlike the OST, keeps the vision of the composer who crafts a full score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,290]

18 minutes ago, Holko said:

But unlike the OST, keeps the vision of the composer who crafts a full score.

 

The complete score is usually a compromise between composer and director. The OST is the composer's opportunity to present the music more as he/she prefers.

[JTN 2,329]

Or because there’s no opportunity to present the full score and the composer has to make a compromise.

 

 

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

But normally musicians put out albums.

Albums were the standard in the LP era where the space for the music was limited, thus the composer had to make an OST album of his score to showcase what they thought best represented their artistic vision. In the CD era this mentality remained for a while, until the Star Wars Anthology came along and gave fans something they had never seen before, but always wanted, and later in 1997 the RCA Victor Special Editions proved that there is a huge demand for expanded editions. Since then 2-3-CD expanded editions have become the new norm, and it has stayed to this day, proving that that’s what the soundtrack collectors want. An expanded or full score plus alternate cues and the OST. It’s worked for many years and it’s here to stay.

[Datameister 2,101]

It really is interesting how these conversations can veer into such extremes on both sides. If I were to sum up my take: 

 

• Potential advantages of an OST: More concise, cheaper, more accessible, less risk of listeners getting bored due to long runtime or the inclusion of less interesting material. Requires no editing by those who prefer a curated musical summary.
• Potential advantages of an expanded presentation: More music to enjoy. Archival value. Provides more of a look into the craft of film scoring, and filmmaking writ large. Maximum flexibility for the tiny subculture that likes to edit and rearrange things.
• Different scores lean differently into the advantages of the two formats.
• Digital distribution eases some of the difficulties associated with physical albums, but it can introduce new ones too.
• Scarcity does make things feel more special. Delaying a complete release can actually make it more enjoyable when it finally comes. The cost is yearning and frustration in the meantime—and the potential for loss or degradation of the source material. If the delays go on and on, some fans will die and miss out altogether.
• Only releasing a package deal with both presentations is probably a bad idea financially in most cases.
• We don't have access to detailed business records, so it's impossible to make fully informed judgments on what's economically viable.
• Every score is different. Every listener is different. Blanket statements and one-size-fits-all approaches won't cut it. Mostly.
• Whatever other thoughts I'm forgetting.

[bruce marshall 1,320]

Maybe a better way to word this topic..

" Have you discarded or ignored purchased expansions because the ost is  far superior?"

 

 

Yes.

THE WILD BUNCH

TOMBSTONE

CAPRICORN ONE

OUTLAND

OST is a much better listen

😊

[Yavar Moradi 2,670]

18 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Some scores are best enjoyed as suites, and for me 'The Cowboys' is one of them. I got restless listening to the repetitive and meandering Deluxe Edition from Varèse.

 

Whoa! For me it was one of the best Williams expansions of all time. The original Varese album was such a jumbled mess and also accidentally included a non-Williams cue from the TV series! The concert suite is good for a concert suite, but I really enjoy the full score. I saw and enjoyed the film too, though, so that probably helps me connect with the complete musical narrative.

 

Yavar

[Mr. Hooper 2,069]

55 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

The concert suite is good for a concert suite, but I really enjoy the full score. I saw and enjoyed the film too, though, so that probably helps me connect with the complete musical narrative.

That could be it. I've never seen the film. But I'd probably still say there's too much repetition in the score.

[Bespin 8,527]

Ruined... it's maybe a bit rude!

 

However, I struggle to get used to some expanded programs...

• The Cowboys (I still prefer my own shorter playlist, inspired by the old CD program)
• The Long Goodbye (I still prefer my own more chronological playlist)

[A24 4,378]

Quote

What scores have been ruined for you by their expansion?

 

[JTN 2,329]

6 hours ago, Bespin said:

The Long Goodbye (I still prefer my own more chronological playlist)

A.k.a. The Short Goodbye.