Clemmenson's PoA Review

[Morlock 11]

http://filmtracks.com/titles/prisoner_azkaban.html

He gave it four stars. Dissapointing, but not unexpected. Still, very good review.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Will we be hearing The Fury by the time Williams possibly scores Order of the Phoenix?

What the hell does that mean?

:?

[Morlock 11]

What do you mean? He's saying that we might be hearing horror music like the Fury by the time we get to OOTP.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

again, another reason to smite this person.

He's a f@#$ing idiot.

[tpigeon 3]

This is a very good review of the score, regardless of whether or not you agree. I know many have accused Clemensson of being both too positive of Williams' work in recent years, as well as too negative, as he has not awarded a Williams score (other than the Star Wars prequels) ***** since Schindler's List, but I think he makes a lot of good points about this score.

There is no question that Williams did something so different with this one, and that he created various new themes and motifs, but I've always felt that since I've heard the CD, I want to hear more of these new themes we're being presented, as well as some bridging from the old ones. The score as a whole is probably a ***** score, but I won't be able to assess that until I have seen the film, but as presented on CD, I agree with Christian that I am left wanting more. I listen to the thematic development in Hook, and I am completely satisfied because to me, it's well rounded. And while these themes, as well as the old ones, might be more developed in the movie, they clearly aren't on CD, minus perhaps Double Trouble.

And the fact that the CD could have been ten minutes longer, and repeats about ten minutes of the twelve minutes that make up the last track, leaves me a little frustrated, especially since I feel that much of the new material here is truly brilliant.

Ted

[Morlock 11]

I think he just gets too sidetracked with what he sees as the negative. He does have a point, the album is less cohesive than the first two but there's no reason for him to dwell on it so.

EDIT- I agree with Ted. I am also left wanting a bit more, where the first two were very satisfying. One of the things that JW is best at is that he'll never leave you hanging- if he has an idea, he'll always take it as far as it should and could go. That is one thing that IMO every single other major composer currently working lacks, and amazing as the score is, this was the first time ever with a Williams score that I was left wanting more.

IMO- that is one of the reasons Goldsmith's scores are less accesible, and, overall, have far more gaps than Williams- he oftn has a great idea but doesn't use it as fully as it could. Often some of Goldsmith's best music has come out in the blatant copying by others, but other who developed the idea further.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The lovely flute theme in "A Window to the Past" is the primary musical idea in Prisoner of Azkaban

Funny, I can't hear a flute theme. The recorder theme is nice though.

[King Mark 3,631]

I generally agree with his review,and I listed similar disappointments in the other thread.I've been saying the album is too short and space is wasted,some cues are too short,some themes need expanded concert versions.

It's also frustrating to hear great sounding unreleased music popping up in preview specials .

K.M.

[Hlao-roo 389]

One of the more well-thought out Filmtracks reviews to date -- he takes the time to elaborate at length on both the strengths and weaknesses of the score from his standpoint.

Clemmensen's disappointment in Prisoner of Azkaban can be anticipated by his reaction to Williams's score for The Lost World: Jurassic Park, also a 4 star review: "I was disappointed by the lack of loyalty to the themes and rhythms of Jurassic Park. Sure, this score is supposed to stand alone, but Williams has always been one of the best composers of integrating themes in between sequels."

Obviously, he's a strong believer in unity and coherence both within a score and between a score and its sequel scores.

In the liner notes, Cuaron writes, "How [John Williams] managed to create a unity out of it all, beats me!" I personally think it's very arguable that Williams didn't exactly create "a unity" out of it all while also acknowledging that the versatility on display is impressive.

And before you burn Clemmensen at the stake, at least take note that he's finally acknowledging that he can't predict the way a score plays out in the film based solely on its soundtrack album: "Film music collectors would be best served by hearing the full scores for both Prisoner of Azkaban and, for that matter, Chamber of Secrets so that maybe Williams' overarching plan for these scores is better revealed." He's admitting the possibility that he could be wrong, folks! Give him some credit.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Oh, I usually look forward to Clemmensen's reviews as they're long and well thought-out. But then I see some rather mind-boggling phrased quotes of his that make me go "What the hell?"

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

It was well-written, but I've come to believe that there's just no pleasing Clemmensen (to giving a 5 star rating) with Harry Potter scores. He criticized Socercer's Stone for the lack of quality/classic themes and now criticizes PoA for not incorporating those themes. I see what he means about the album lacking a certain overall cohesivenes, and I expect that's largely due to the album's production rather than the score itself. Of course, like he says, we'll see when the film comes out. Oh, and he must have much better ears than me, since I just cannot hear Buckbeak's Theme in Saving Buckbeak. :roll:

Ray Barnsbury

[stewdog1 50]

I don't want to get this soundtrack until the movie comes out. Just something about hearing the music before I see the movie somehow ruins that 'first-time' experience for me.

[King Mark 3,631]

Oh, and he must have much better ears than me, since I just cannot hear Buckbeak's Theme in Saving Buckbeak.  :roll:  

I'm glad it's just not me .

K.M.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

And before you burn Clemmensen at the stake, at least take note that he's finally acknowledging that he can't predict the way a score plays out in the film based solely on its soundtrack album: "Film music collectors would be best served by hearing the full scores for both Prisoner of Azkaban and, for that matter, Chamber of Secrets so that maybe Williams' overarching plan for these scores is better revealed."  He's admitting the possibility that he could be wrong, folks!  Give him some credit.  

That makes sense to me. Good point, Alan.

Still, I think the reviewer should either cut on the length of his reviews or turn away from the star rating completely. I haven't yet heard the score but it truly sounds as a five-star work thru his review until you see he gave it four stars. He seems to slightly suffer from Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde effect.

I mean -- at least that's how it works with me -- I first scroll down to see how many stars he gave a score and only then I get down to reading the review. Of course -- despite not having heard the score yet -- I felt a sort of unfairness that shined thru his four red stars and immediately thought -- oh well, even Williams' possibly at his best won't soften upon the reviewer's heart.

At least I know James Horner's "The Missing" is a five-star score so if I end up in disappointment once I hear the PoA score, I know where to seek The Missing comfort...

Roman.-)

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

What annoys me is that he has the same complaints about continuity in Return of the King, yet he still seems fit to award it five stars. I hope that when the movie comes out he will have that "Score as heard..." up so at least we can see what he thought of it in the movie. If he doesnt, we will see his bias for LotR and the Prequels in full force. Then he can give it an overall score, and by then perhaps he will have raised the score. We can only hope.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

There are so many threads about the PoA score I didn't know where to post it, so I just slapped it here.

I've just been browsing some general Harry Potter forums and I'm amazed at the amount of people who bash Williams on them. Most of them don't know what they're on about and just say "It sounds like Star Wars and Independence Day music, some of John's previous works..." but then the people who (seemingly) do rip it to bits. One person said "he writes some nice notes but then the rest are repeditive staccato brass notes...". Enough to make you cringe, but not until someone says "I think they should find someone else to do the music for Harry Potter. John Williams just didn't deliver for me on this one. I'd like to see Hans Zimmer or Elfman score them..." when you vomit.

The fact that they know nothing of the complex thematic development and the importance of every theme is probably why the negative feedback is there. I read some of the predictions of the PoA score that they had and was mortified at the lack of knowledge they posess about the scores. Granted, I probably know a lot more about the scores than them and that's thanks to these forums, site and members. But they predict that the Knight Bus will start with an "evil verison of Harry's Theme, then the seven-note Evil Theme" obviously meaning Voldemort's theme. They don't know about how important it is to place these themes carefully in the score and not just slap them everywhere. They have no idea how it could drastically decrease the score and film if Voldemort 's Theme was mentioned every time something bad happens.

I know that many of them know next to nothing about film scores, and that I'm probably being too critical, but it just irks me big-time.

[Incanus 5,722]

I have read Christian Clemmensen's review and found it to be little contradicting. The main points he makes are negative but in the end he summarises the score good and gives it 4 stars. Even as I am becoming tired of the star rating in general this "I love it I hate it" is very irksome and very common in his reviews nowadays. But the main point of the review was the lack of thematic development and the absence of the older themes that were established in the previous films. I find that a word of defence for Williams is in order. First of all a soundtrack album is not a definitive version of the score and does not show all the development of the material in the film and secondly do we bark at the wrong tree in this case. Is Williams solely responsible for the scoring of the film? Has he complete power over everything concerning the music? Of course not. He works in collaboration with the director and in this case it was a new man. There was no Chris Columbus this time around (expect producing) but Alfonso Cuaron who (it seems judging the album) has very different musical tastes than Columbus. Maybe he wanted to strike out on his own and shape a totally new vision of the Harry Potter music and all. And this is what affected much of the music. Maybe there was no room for the old themes in his view and the tone of the film was so very different that Williams and he chose to go a different path all together.

In the core the musical style is the same but the tone is different. Maybe Williams would have written a theme for the Dementors or Sirius Black but Cuaron wanted just athmosphere or themeles underscore. I don't say Clemmensen's review was all bad but when you think of it does he do this bashing little lightly? Of course music very personal thing and someone's master piece is another's complete failure. To me the absence of old themes was a bit of a shock and I do like ordered thematic development and use of previous material to anchor the music in the same world as the previous scores but I got over it. And when you think how many of the previous themes would fit in the new score I can think only the ones presented in the first film could since CoS had so many character and place specific themes and motifs they should have no business in the movie(and I think it was a very bad decision to use the Philosopher stone motif for everything evil and threatning in CoS, totally out of place). One has to think the needs of the film and the film making process not personal tastes when making judgement on the score. All in all I would like to hear this score (as I would like to hear all Williams scores) in complete form to fully appreciate it and judge it. And by the way I loved the album (even if it misses music )

[Ollie 1,059]

One of the things I believe is that Clemmenson is the victim of his own hype. I think his expectations for the HP scores were a tad bit too high.

Although I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't hear Buckbeak's Theme in that cue as well.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

like I said he's a F#$%ing IDIOT.

IF You want to read worthy reviews, read those here by your fellow posters. I'd rather hear Alan discuss the score, or Ray, or Mark, than Clemmeson, who despite the rating, always seems to disparage John's work.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

like I said he's a F#$%ing IDIOT.

IF You want to read worthy reviews, read those here by your fellow posters.  I'd rather hear Alan discuss the score, or Ray, or Mark, than Clemmeson, who despite the rating, always seems to disparage John's work.

The following quote from Christian Clemmensen's review pretty much sums it up.

As with the other Harry Potter scores, Williams tempts us with incredible musical ideas, the usual level of marvelous counterpoint, and an ingenuity in originality of orchestral rhythms and instrumentation that continues to amaze. But still, while the score for Prisoner of Azkaban has plenty of melody, it lacks a definitive passion that could (and should) encompass the entire series of scores. As a package, Prisoner of Azkaban showcases the brilliance of Williams' talents, with great ideas rolling out one after another, and yet it would seem as though the maestro has lost a little of his touch in the area of wrapping all of these ideas into a coherent whole.

[ChrisAfonso 188]

I believe it's a good thing that the score has mostly new music, as any place on the cd that's used for pre-existing themes is less place available for new ones. Same with the RotK CD, as disappointed as I am that some of the great music from the film is not there, like the Rohan theme from the Rohirric attack on the Pelennor Fields, it would be worse if it were there but some new RotK music like The White Tree was missing in its stead. It all comes down to the CD having too little running time.

[A24 4,353]

like I said he's a F#$%ing IDIOT.

IF You want to read worthy reviews, read those here by your fellow posters.  I'd rather hear Alan discuss the score, or Ray, or Mark, than Clemmeson, who despite the rating, always seems to disparage John's work.

What is this nonsense? That's a very positive review! Where is the positive JoeinAr when it comes to other Williams scores?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

What is this nonsense? That's a very positive review! Where is the positive JoeinAr when it comes to other Williams scores?

Clemmensen's review reminds me of the time I got a A from a teacher, for an essay.

His response to my essay was this, and I quote, I tried to find something wrong with this but I couldn't, so I'm giving it an A.

The grade was good, but the sentiment behind it was a kick in the ass.

[TIEfighter 0]

I was just at rottentomatoes.com and scanned through the POA-reviews for Statements on John Williams Soundtrack, here are some:

Tech specs are uniformly impressive, from the artful compositions provided by incoming cinematographer and longtime Alan Parker collaborator Michael Seresin to Stuart Craig's always inventive production design to Tim Burke and Roger Guyett's magical visual effects (enter the Hippogriff) to John Williams' far moodier score.

(Hollywood Reporter)

The chamber music-inspired score by John Williams (2002's "Catch Me If You Can") builds supremely upon its now-identifiable central theme with rapturous, original new music that is less conventional and more experimental in nature.

(from themovieboy.com)

John Williams' score is jazzy and bouncy most of the way through.

(Hot Button)

A lot of people seem to be really surprised by our maestro´s new score, but they all seem to be happy with it

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I've just been browsing some general Harry Potter forums and I'm amazed at the amount of people who bash Williams on them. Most of them don't know what they're on about and just say "It sounds like Star Wars and Independence Day music, some of John's previous works..." but then the people who (seemingly) do rip it to bits. One person said "he writes some nice notes but then the rest are repeditive staccato brass notes...". Enough to make you cringe, but not until someone says "I think they should find someone else to do the music for Harry Potter. John Williams just didn't deliver for me on this one. I'd like to see Hans Zimmer or Elfman score them..." when you vomit.  

The fact that they know nothing of the complex thematic development and the importance of every theme is probably why the negative feedback is there. I read some of the predictions of the PoA score that they had and was mortified at the lack of knowledge they posess about the scores. Granted, I probably know a lot more about the scores than them and that's thanks to these forums, site and members. But they predict that the Knight Bus will start with an "evil verison of Harry's Theme, then the seven-note Evil Theme" obviously meaning Voldemort's theme. They don't know about how important it is to place these themes carefully in the score and not just slap them everywhere. They have no idea how it could drastically decrease the score and film if Voldemort 's Theme was mentioned every time something bad happens.

I see this all the time at Mugglenet boards. Bloody morons have no idea what they're on about.

PS - Wait a minute... didn't you just join up there? I think I just welcomed you after your first post. LOL

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Aha! I thought it was you! Well well, what a coincedence...

As soon as I saw the "Sydney, Australia" location and your Herrmann signature I thought something was up. Your knowledge of scores made me think you were more than just the average Potter fan.

Notice how all my posts are nearly the same when I post them in more than one place? Did the same over at FilmTracks too.

Together, we shall rule Mugglenet, and Williams' name will be known by ALL!

[ChrisAfonso 188]

What is this nonsense? That's a very positive review! Where is the positive JoeinAr when it comes to other Williams scores?

Clemmensen's review reminds me of the time I got a A from a teacher, for an essay.

His response to my essay was this, and I quote, I tried to find something wrong with this but I couldn't, so I'm giving it an A.

The grade was good, but the sentiment behind it was a kick in the ass.

Why don't you take it this way, if you get an A even though he tried very hard to find sth. bad about it, and he couldn't, makes this A more precious than one received from a teacher who likes you and perhaps would've given it to you for lesser achievements

[HPFAN_2 0]

That's nothing, someone was arguing with Ray on mugglenet , the guy said that Williams didn't write a single note of Chamber of Secrets.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That's nothing, someone was arguing with Ray on mugglenet , the guy said that Williams didn't write a single note of Chamber of Secrets.

LOL

[diskobolus 3]

That's nothing, someone was arguing with Ray on mugglenet , the guy said that Williams didn't write a single note of Chamber of Secrets.

LOL

As if any other composer could have written Fawkes's Theme.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Yes, that was funny. After I corrected someone who said that Williams did not compose the CoS score, by pointing out that Ross merely adapted previous themes and underscore, this idiot comes along:

Ahem. Ray, MERELY ADAPTED!? William Ross DID ALL THE WORK! And John Williams got credited with it all because he's a much bigger name. All he did was conduct the recordings. By saying that John Williams composed the score, they mean he composed the old tunes found in it. It was William Ross that composed the new tunes and arranged the old ones. The ONLY thing John Williams did for Chamber of Secrets itself was conduct during recording. I know my facts. Don't dispute. I know my facts.

I still think John Williams is the best film composer ever of course, I just don't like the fact that he got so much credit for Chamber when all that he did was supply William Ross with the first film's old score for adaptation, and oversee the whole process.

I set him straight soon after. I loved his post though. My favorite part is "I know my facts. Don't dispute. I know my facts." LOL

Ray Barnsbury

[woodwindmaster06 0]

I think John Williams might have hinted at this new score in the first two films, in the first Hagrid plays a recorder of not sure which theme, but it hints at going to older music and instrumetal use. Did he know what he was going to do for this ahead of time or was it coincidince?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Coincidence.

Ray Barnsbury

[ChrisAfonso 188]

Hagrid did play Hedwig's theme, in fact.

[ChrisAfonso 188]

BTW, this seems to happen more often... in Witches of Eastwick, Jack Nicholson whistles Devil's Dance when walking into the ice cream parlor

[Lurker 5]

The ONLY thing John Williams did for Chamber of Secrets itself was conduct during recording. I know my facts. Don't dispute. I know my facts.

Then the fact that the album says its conducted by William Ross doesn't mean a thing, right?

Neil

[Justin 2]

That is correct.

Justin

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

BTW, this seems to happen more often... in Witches of Eastwick, Jack Nicholson whistles Devil's Dance when walking into the ice cream parlor

Actually, according to IMDB, that whistle is actually John Williams whistling the theme.

Don't know it for sure, though (IMDB isn't exactly always reliable with this kind of thing).

- Marc

[IrishCal24 0]

Ray, you should to visit the HPGalleries boards instead; there are fewer "morons" there. In fact, I encourage all of you Potter fans to visit. I'm sure Bart would agree with me as he is a regular vistor to that forum as well.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Cool, thanks. I'll check that out. I've been very disappointed by the few times I've read comments and posts at other sites, at the immaturity and abundance of silly preteen attitudes.

Ray Barnsbury

[Bart 0]

Ray, you should to visit the HPGalleries boards instead; there are fewer "morons" there. In fact, I encourage all of you Potter fans to visit. I'm sure Bart would agree with me as he is a regular vistor to that forum as well.

Yes... The galleries have a fewer morons. But you won't find me there till 3th june. I'm avoiding Potter boards till I've seen the movie.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think John Williams might have hinted at this new score in the first two films, in the first Hagrid plays a recorder of not sure which theme, but it hints at going to older music and instrumetal use.  Did he know what he was going to do for this ahead of time or was it coincidince?

I'm not sure the PoA soundscape was planned back then,but there IS a medieval motif played in PS on period instruments similar to PoA cues,it's a short unreleased segment in the second half of the movie before they go to the dark forest I think.

K.M,

[diskobolus 3]

Cool, thanks.  I'll check that out.  I've been very disappointed by the few times I've read comments and posts at other sites, at the immaturity and abundance of silly preteen attitudes.

Ray Barnsbury

I used to post a lot at an hp forum at fandom.com/harrypotter, but exactly what you just described took place there. Now the only hp boards I frequent are those at the sugarquill. Even most of the young kids there have thoughtful things to say.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

K.M.: Is that the short Harp melody that was floating around here a while back? Nobody could tell if it came from the movie or not, and there was a whole thread about it. I think it was called "Detention with Hagrid".

[ST-321 4]

I don't want to get this soundtrack until the movie comes out.  Just something about hearing the music before I see the movie somehow ruins that 'first-time' experience for me.

Wow! I am totally the opposite. This is your only chance to hear the music without the images of the film cluttering up the notes. I always want to hear a Williams score before I see the movie.

[Hlao-roo 389]

...and Dan Goldwasser gives it 3 1/2 stars over at SoundtrackNet (no review).

[King Mark 3,631]

K.M.: Is that the short Harp melody that was floating around here a while back?

I don't remember that MP3,it's harp mixed with a medieval sounding instrument I don't recognise.Itsjust before the Dark Forest music.

K.M.

[Romão 2,274]

What is it with soundtrack.net and John Williams? They never gave a 5 star rating to a JW score. I mena, no 5 star for E.T, or Star Wars, or Superman, or Schindler's List, or Raiders, or Seven years...not one.How ridiculous is that? Talk about credibility.

And yet, all LOTR socres had a 5 star rating.

What is the world coming to?

[Morlock 11]

Zero Credibility.

[A24 4,353]

What is it with soundtrack.net and John Williams? They never gave a 5 star rating to a JW score. I mena, no 5 star for E.T, or Star Wars, or Superman, or Schindler's List, or Raiders, or Seven years...not one.How ridiculous is that? Talk about credibility.

Now Seven Years in Tibet I understand, but no 5 stars for E.T., SW, Supes or SL is ridiculous. Who's in charge over there?

----------------

Alex Cremers