Incanus 5,715 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I hope that they will have the two groups split up again into two small groups each,. That way, they can have all four groups go to four different locations, and we will have characters to care about in all sorts of places. That'd be awesome.Was it not enough for them to have Bard, his invented family, Legolas and that invented Elf in Laketown during Smaug's attack? Or did they think we wouldn't care enough about all those characters?I think they need to bring in Smaug's family to give his background some depth and make his demise more harrowing for the audience. Mama Smaug won't be seeing her firebreathing son no more.One of my favourite tracks on the album is Flies and Spiders. Absolutely brilliant. Shore's action music has now more focus than ever. It's been already evident last year, but this time he has knocked it out of the park in this department.KarolYeah the action music in all respects it very vibrant and focused in my opinion as well. Flies and Spiders has some wicked Shelob-type action going on. Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,350 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 The cliny clangy gongy stuff really is a new colour for Shore's LOTR universe. I like it.Some of it reminded me of the Borg material in First Contact.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I got a more of a Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome vibe myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 It reminds me of The Golden Compass, actually. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Well that's probably because Desplat used Tibetan bowls for that score as well.Other than that, the Smaug percussion still sounds quite different from TGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,350 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I was more referring to the "hissing" in the background, it reminded me of a few FC cues.like 1:04 of The Courage of Hobbits vs. the first few seconds of Flight of the Pheonix, its not exactly alike, but it sounds a bit similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Well that's probably because Desplat used Tibetan bowls for that score as well.Other than that, the Smaug percussion still sounds quite different from TGC.But it does sound quite similar to the percussion used in The Last Airbender.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Agreed, although that moment is soon followed by a rather familiar 5/4 rhythm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 James Newton Howard musically apologised for King Kong. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Well that's probably because Desplat used Tibetan bowls for that score as well.Other than that, the Smaug percussion still sounds quite different from TGC.But it does sound quite similar to the percussion used in The Last Airbender.KarolThat score came to my mind as well when listening to the bowls and other percussion in DoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Clarice's theme, Howard, Desplat, Poledouris. Shore is a hack!Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Clarice's theme, Howard, Desplat, Poledouris. Shore is a hack! KarolI think that if we are going to start defining usage of instruments as musical stealing then the world of music is full of hacks and thieves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Damn straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 They're all horners!Karol A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 "Shore is a liar, and a THIEF!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,350 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 A thief, and a LIAR!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewya 360 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I just love the vocal that stats at 4.49 in Beyond the Forest. It reminds me of TTT vocal work (that Helm's Deep vocal comes to mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 What is that theme exactly? It also opens the film shortly before the Shire theme, so it can't be that unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 What is that theme exactly? It also opens the film shortly before the Shire theme, so it can't be that unimportant. Maybe this is a bookend theme, just like the one in AUJ (unless it appears in other tracks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Listening to the first few tracks again, they sound fantastic. I thought it was mostly "filler" music at the start, but I was so wrong.I really like Wilderland.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrick 0 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 What is that theme exactly? It also opens the film shortly before the Shire theme, so it can't be that unimportant.It reminds me so much of Bilbo's Song from ROTK, I could actually imagine a development into what we already know from LOTR in TABA. The theme in Beyond the Forest just sounds like a more heroic rendition to me, less introverted and retrospective. Just speculation to this point but I like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I really like the circling trumpets around 6:50 in "The Hunters".The action music is just really solid all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Did 1,5 listens so far.I guess The Misty Mountains theme has been completely retired for DoS. It might not have been written by shore, but it was the closest thing to a Fellowship/Rohan/Gondor theme so far.AUJ, while being a very good score lacked it's own identity because of a lack of that kind of theme. DoS might have that same issue. Again, lots of themes, some old, some new. But nothing that instantly stands out and grabs your attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 If the final two minutes of My Armour Is Iron don't grab your attention, nothing will. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,692 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 One of my bigger problems with this score is exactly that - there's no main theme. The Misty Mountains theme was perfect, and even if it wasn't written by Shore, I see no reason to suddenly remove it entirely.Also, I find the action a bit less focused than you guys do - Shore goes from one idea to another way too quickly for me, and again, with no 'Fellowship' theme to hold it all together, it's missing something.This also not helped by me not particularly liking most of Shore's new themes. I love his themes for the first trilogy. The new ones just don't click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 His new themes are good, solid, a bit too straight forward I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Kind of like Rohan theme. Performed on Norwegian fiddle might seem like something special, but a classic it ain't in my book. It does the job, but, for a central thematic idea, a bit too static and, quite frankly, uninteresting.Gondor, on the other, hand... Now that's a proper full-bodied tune. Better than Fellowship, in fact.Karol Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 The Rohan theme static and uninteresting? Dixon Hill and SafeUnderHill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Compared to other major themes (including new ones) it never develops into anything. No changing harmony, no real b section, no new layers of meaning, same thing every time. Does it even ever change key?Karol Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 One of my bigger problems with this score is exactly that - there's no main theme.None of Shore's LotR scores had a main theme. They just introduced themes and motifs for certain things, but Shore never went and wrote a theme for the movie, in none of them, not in LotR, not in DoS, and not in AUJ.In fact, Misty Mountains was the first theme in his entire Middle-Earth opus that was applied once or twice in the function of a general main theme instead of some concrete leitmotivic idea. And even with that I'm not sure because you can certainly look at it like a theme for the dwarves' longing for Erebor. Once they're there in DoS, it would be logical for it to dissappear.The Fellowshiip theme, the Rohan theme, the Gondor theme, they're not main themes, they are thematic ideas applied to prominent plot elements, namely the Fellowship, Rohan and Gondor; and because each one of the three movies focuses on one of these plot elements, the applied themes are the most prominent in the score, but that doesn't make them the "theme for the movie" in the common sense. They do play over the title card, but I consider those statements as curtain openers, or a short overture, to foreshadow what the next act of the story will focus on. SafeUnderHill and Dixon Hill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 But you can say that of most themes written for any film. Do you think composers sit down and think of a "general movie themes"? Or perhaps they introduce things to represent characters, objects? Nothing Shore has done is new.Ring history serves that purpose, by the way.Oh and didn't Peter Jackson ask Shore to compose a new theme for TTT that people would associate with this chapter same as Fellowship did that for FOTR? There was a clip in making of featurettes when he says just that.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 Compared to other major themes (including new ones) it never develops into anything. No changing harmony, no real b section, no new layers of meaning, same thing every time. Does it even ever change key?KarolUm, yes, yes and yes?Never develops into anything? Are you familiar with the scores? The majestic fanfare in Meduseld, the mournful statement in the Glittering Caves scene, the gentle and tense variation when the Uruks march on Helms Deep, the heroic variation in Forth Eorlingas, the call to arms after the beacon lighting, the triumphant Rohan fanfare cap-off of the Nature theme riding out of Edoras, the pulsating and rallying version when the troops leave Dunharrow, the penultimate statement on the Pelennor, and the peaceful versions for Theoden's moment with Eowyn at Dunharrow or fading out Theoden's death ... these are just the statements that differ the most. Not exactly one-dimensional. And definitely not always the same key.As far as development goes, it's a theme for the place and maybe it's people, just like the Gondorian theme. It doesn't need to go somewhere entirely new with it because the movie doesn't. SafeUnderHill and Dixon Hill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,350 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Wouldn't Smaug's theme fit that description though? I mean, yeah it showed up in AUJ, but so did the Gondor theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 But you can say that of most themes written for any film. Do you think composers sit down and think of a "general movie themes"? Or perhaps they introduce things to represent characters, objects? Nothing Shore has done is new.Ring history serves that purpose, by the way.Oh and didn't Peter Jackson ask Shore to compose a new theme for TTT that people would associate with this chapter same as Fellowship did that for FOTR? There was a clip in making of featurettes when he says just that.KarolNo, composers maybe don't think in "general movie themes", but they watch a film and write music according to the inspiration that comes with it, or they find certain aspects that they want to express, and let that flow into a piece of music that does it. That may be inspired by a scene or a performance, or comments from the director or a combination of these or something else about the film, and that becomes the identity of the film/score. But even though maybe inspired by a certain element of the movie, it's not very often a specific motif for it, and even less often is it used in a stringent way in the movie."Hedwig's Theme" was also inspired by Hedwig, or an Owl's flight, and you wouldn't argue that it became the general main theme of the Potter film(s). Williams littered PS with it, also CoS, and PoA also used it as a general theme.The most famous Bond themes were most certainly not conceived as leitmotifs.Neither was Elfman's Batman theme.The History of the Ring theme is as much of a leitmotif as any other themes in that film, and its placement is just as much guided by its leitmotivic nature. It's one of the themes that connects all three films, yes, and is maybe one of the most, if not THE most prominent thematic arc, but that's because the films are about the One Ring, and the theme is for, well, the history of the ring. The fact that it plays over the "The Lord of the Rings" title doesn't make it the main theme.The Shire theme playing over the "The Hobbit" title card doesn't make it the Hobbit trilogy's main theme either.Of course Shore does nothing new, but the specific, target-oriented and all-encompassing, not to mention pedantic, crafting of his motifs towards a planned goal over hours of music is certainly unique. Or could you tell me a project this big and structured in recent memory?By the way, about that Jackson thing, I know what you're referring to. But if the Hobbit made one thing very clear, then it's that Jackson understands themes on the most basic level. How Shore crafts his themes and score on a deeper level is probably concerning him not very much as long as he has a nice tune to hum. Jackson said Shore played him early ideas for the Rohan theme, and while on set, he was still humming the themes from Fellowship, the Fellowship theme, the Shire theme and so on. PJ asked Shore to "create something that's hummable", and he cited the Shire and Fellowship as examples. It was about the melodic identity of the Rohan theme. And Shore gave him a hummable theme for Rohan. He said the film spends a lot of time in Rohan, so he wanted something melodic and identifiable because it was going to be a main (meaning much used) theme.I don't see how Jackson asking for something melodically strong makes the Rohan theme the "main theme" for Two Towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,350 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Most of the big FOTR Ring theme statements are tracked anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Most of the big FOTR Ring theme statements are tracked anyway. I am aware that you are our "tracking" expert on this stuff so could you mention a few. Or should I just go into the Conspiracy Unmasked thread instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 I'm not sure I really want to know.I'd rather live in my perfect world where all the FotR Ring statements were intentionally recorded for their designated appearances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 I'm not sure I really want to know.I'd rather live in my perfect world where all the FotR Ring statements were intentionally recorded for their designated appearances.Yeah actually that works for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 What is that theme exactly? It also opens the film shortly before the Shire theme, so it can't be that unimportant.Wha?? 4:49 of Beyond The Forest (a theme which appears in many of tracks by the way) sounds nothing like 0:37-0:49 of Quest for Erebor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Um, yes, yes and yes?Never develops into anything? Are you familiar with the scores? The majestic fanfare in Meduseld, the mournful statement in the Glittering Caves scene, the gentle and tense variation when the Uruks march on Helms Deep, the heroic variation in Forth Eorlingas, the call to arms after the beacon lighting, the triumphant Rohan fanfare cap-off of the Nature theme riding out of Edoras, the pulsating and rallying version when the troops leave Dunharrow, the penultimate statement on the Pelennor, and the peaceful versions for Theoden's moment with Eowyn at Dunharrow or fading out Theoden's death ... these are just the statements that differ the most. Not exactly one-dimensional. And definitely not always the same key.Georg, I know these scores almost by heart. All of that does occur, but it's not INTERESTING ENOUGH and certainly not MORE INTERESTING than the other two mentioned.Besides, we're losing the plot here. I was responding to Stefan's post where he said The Hobbit themes are good and strong but not as strong as LOTR ones. To which I said Rohan theme is not any more interesting than those. It's not to say I don't like it, but, among other things by Shore, this one falls short.But you can say that of most themes written for any film. Do you think composers sit down and think of a "general movie themes"? Or perhaps they introduce things to represent characters, objects? Nothing Shore has done is new.Ring history serves that purpose, by the way.Oh and didn't Peter Jackson ask Shore to compose a new theme for TTT that people would associate with this chapter same as Fellowship did that for FOTR? There was a clip in making of featurettes when he says just that.KarolI don't see how Jackson asking for something melodically strong makes the Rohan theme the "main theme" for Two Towers.But that's how normal people (read: not us) understand themes. They are the majority and, trust me, they can only remember three four themes from all films. We can discuss all we want, but I'm talking about those in terms of what general audience understanding. And that's what really counts here.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 I couldn't find any mention of this on the last pages of the thread, but doesn't the melancholic theme from "Girion, Lord of Dale" from 2:24 an (first in the male hum chor, then in the strings) seem to be a minor version of the motif that opens (and almost closes) AUJ? The melodic arc in the first two phrases is very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 That theme you are talking about appears all over the second disc (It also opens In The Shadow of the Mountain, and reaches it's climax during My Armor Is Iron, for exanple) and yea, I've thought it was related to the AUJ opening logos music since I first heard it. When you factor in what it represents, and that Shore intended it to play again in AUJ when the company gets rescued by Eagles, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 None of Shore's LotR scores had a main theme. They just introduced themes and motifs for certain things, but Shore never went and wrote a theme for the movie, in none of them, not in LotR, not in DoS, and not in AUJ.The Main Theme for FOTR was The Fellowship Theme, for TTT it was the Rohan Theme and for ROTK it was the Gondor Theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 I couldn't find any mention of this on the last pages of the thread, but doesn't the melancholic theme from "Girion, Lord of Dale" from 2:24 an (first in the male hum chor, then in the strings) seem to be a minor version of the motif that opens (and almost closes) AUJ? The melodic arc in the first two phrases is very similar.That theme you are talking about appears all over the second disc (It also opens In The Shadow of the Mountain, and reaches it's climax during My Armor Is Iron, for exanple) and yea, I've thought it was related to the AUJ opening logos music since I first heard it. When you factor in what it represents, and that Shore intended it to play again in AUJ when the company gets rescued by Eagles, it makes sense.Oooh good call guys! You might be onto something here! The theme also recalls somewhat the Dwarrowdelf theme in its form in DoS and perhaps has a similar function of showing up whenever the mountain kingdom and its glories are mentioned or seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.OK now you obviously know something the rest of us do not Jason. I am a bit sad the eerie choral motif from Radagast the Brown and the White Council some of us called The Shadow Over Mirkwood didn't make it to this film. I guess it either had no more significance in DoS or it was after all related to Radagast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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