Discussing Williams on Other Message Boards . . .

[AzOutcast 122]

Alright, so I don't chime in here all too often (obviously) but this remains a great place for information and just to read up on film scores and whatnot. I'm just curious as to how you often you all might discuss John Williams on other message boards, because whenever I run into a conversation leads to the most insane places. I give you an example:

He writes great music, there is no doubt of that. You simply cannot argue the fact that his themes are fantastic and catchy and epic. That being said, he doesn't understand fully the idea of film scoring. A director is a brain and he is trying to tell a story. The actors help tell the story, the dialouge helps tell the story, the camera angles, the lighting, the costumes, the make up, the special effects, the computer animation, the editing, and the music. A composer's job is, like that of the director of photography, or the make-up artist, or the editor, is to help tell the director's story. When there is a sad scene, the music should reflect that, but it is very delicate, becasue sometimes the actors are doing a very good job portraying the sad scene, and overly sad music will make it over dramatic. That is the problem with Williams. His music is too extreme, and he doesn't know when to be subtle. There are very few moments when I say "Wow! that was genius! that was just plain great storytelling on his part" (which I do frequently with other composers)

Now, yes. He steals a lot of ideas. Star Wars sounds just like The Planets. But is that so awful? I mean, when it comes down to it, you have to do what you have to do to create the best accompaniment for the film, and sometimes that means composing stuff that you wouldn't if you were just composing. Composing out of your style, or, more specifically, in the style of someone else. You can't argue that Holst's ideas were perfect for capturing out of this world, spacey, planety music, so if you are composing for a film about other planets, it's only natural to observe his ideas.

Well certainly I watch a film and notice how well the camera angles and editing affect the flow of the film, but I understand that this is not the norm for all people.

And my point was that his music doesn't help to blend into the whole. I was saying that, like you agree, film making is a collaborative effort, and I feel that often times, Williams steps on the toes of the other creative forces.

On the other hand, I agree that it is indisputable that the jaws theme is one of the most fitting themes ever written. His themes always are. Someone mentioned the Harry Potter Theme. That, also, is so perfect for the film (though it sounds just like Neptune). But it is the music past the themes that I'm concerned with. If you look at the scoring of guys like James Newton Howard or Howard Shore! Yeah, let's take these two and look at two of their scores.

The King Kong Score: This, much like Jaws, or Harry Potter, or Star Wars, or Super Man is a film about something extravagant and unreal. He used very humane, and simple themes for his main themes. The "Beauty" Theme that plays throughout is just so simple and touching and gives such a human side to this huge ape. Of course, the action scenes are the action scenes, but he brings it down when he needs to and lets the actors do their part. Also, if you remember, halfway through the T-rex fight, the music cuts out (when they're hanging from the vines) this is fantastic! The whole fight sequence is about 15 minutes in length. Could you image 15 minutes of none-stop Jurrasic Park attack music?! He helped the flow of the film by not doing anything! Also, in the inset pit. Really effing creepy bugs and garbage eating people. That sounds intense right! that sounds like loud, bombastic, and heavy! but no! He used a very quite choir chanting softly in the backround, and it made the scene 10 times scarier! The lack of volume and action in the music created such a stark contrast to the images, that it made the images on screen seem even creepier and made the audience very unsettled.

LoTR: These films are undoubtedly some of the most epic ever made, and the score undoubtedly one of the best ever written. Never did I feel overwhelmed by it, though. There is no cliché pretension in the action scenes, no powerful action theme blasting through with a gigantic orchestra. There is so much going on visually that little needs to be added by the music. Many times in the action scenes, the score cuts out completely. Another thing that makes this score so fantastic is how well he captured each different race, with different ideas, instrumentations, themes, etcetera. It aided the lush color of the film and its diversity. It made the world seem much more realistic. This 9+ hour piece of music is truly outstanding, and there is little reliance on fantastic themes and loud, over dramatic orchestration. It is subtle, and perfect for the film it goes with.

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

. . . I don't even know what to say. Of course, people are entitled to their own opinions even if they are very poor.

[Luke Skywalker 1,797]

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

. . . I don't even know what to say. Of course, people are entitled to their own opinions even if they are very poor.

Shore composed three great score with LOTR, but the other two better than Williams, come on!

Statements like that on a 1st post...i dont know it just seems like a senior member making fun with another account.

And we are having a some new members of late with a little controversial attitude...

Star Wars sounds just like The Planets.

Even if you were not critisizing Williams with this, we should stop speaking of this rip off like that. That description makes it look as a hornerism.

One or two minutes from Rebel blockade runner and the battle of Yavin sound like Mars. Period.

[ChuckM 1]

Star Wars sounds just like The Planets.

Not really. A few similar parts here and there, but that's about it. Zimmer's Gladiator, on the other hand...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Not a very smart post, a lot of nasty replies are heading this way. I'll start of by saying this: Are you only comparing 4 scores to all of those done by Williams? King Kong is a good score, Lord Of The Rings is great, they all do their part. Williams has never over dramaticized or impeded a film because of his music. If anything, the music makes the film. Also, most composers know when to cut the music and let the film take over, I can list endless examples of people doing this, it's not just the composer's idea, it's the director's as well.

The Imperial March has 1 note from Holst's The Planets, Zimmer took over 4 with Gladiator...and lots of composers "steal" from Holst because he is one of the greatest composers ever.

John Williams earned and deserves his place at the top, he doesn't get as much credit as he deserves IMO. Just 5 Oscars? He should have at least 7. Prisoner Of Azkaban and Munich should have won.

No way in hell is Shore better, LOTR are his only good scores IMO. Zimmer?! eff no, and that's coming from a Zimmer fan. JNH is a superb composer and is one of my favorites, but in no way does he surpass Williams.

[Ollie 1,059]

Just don't praise Williams at FSM or mention him to Dan Hobgood and you'll be ok.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

To be completely honest, I disagree with most of your points.

One thing I do partially agree on is that John Williams...since around the mid to late 80s to this day...hasn't quite been making scores fit the movies in the same tightly knit manner he used to. Cinematically, there is usually something that doesn't click very well in comparison to say Star Wars or E.T. It got even worse after Nixon...

[Henry B 50]

Williams's greatest problem in scoring technique is that he has forgotten the power of silence. Or the directors he works with have.

[Red 75]

Saving Private Ryan tells me different.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Williams's greatest problem in scoring technique is that he has forgotten the power of silence. Or the directors he works with have.

Exactly. Less is more is gone.

[AzOutcast 122]

Just to be clear, I was posting a reply from another message board . . . not my own..

I guess what I was getting at is that at least here when discussing film scores there seems to be a level of sophistication . . . that just fades away when you try discussing it elsewhere.

[QMM 4]

No way in hell is Shore better, LOTR are his only good scores IMO.

God you are so wrong.

[Romão 2,274]

War of the Worlds, Geisha and Munich were scored spot on, even with the use of silence. It completely eludes how given his outstanding output in 2005, anyone could say his abilities are declining.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Alright, so I don't chime in here all too often (obviously) but this remains a great place for information and just to read up on film scores and whatnot. I'm just curious as to how you often you all might discuss John Williams on other message boards, because whenever I run into a conversation leads to the most insane places. I give you an example:

He writes great music, there is no doubt of that. You simply cannot argue the fact that his themes are fantastic and catchy and epic. That being said, he doesn't understand fully the idea of film scoring. A director is a brain and he is trying to tell a story. The actors help tell the story, the dialouge helps tell the story, the camera angles, the lighting, the costumes, the make up, the special effects, the computer animation, the editing, and the music. A composer's job is, like that of the director of photography, or the make-up artist, or the editor, is to help tell the director's story. When there is a sad scene, the music should reflect that, but it is very delicate, becasue sometimes the actors are doing a very good job portraying the sad scene, and overly sad music will make it over dramatic. That is the problem with Williams. His music is too extreme, and he doesn't know when to be subtle. There are very few moments when I say "Wow! that was genius! that was just plain great storytelling on his part" (which I do frequently with other composers)

Now, yes. He steals a lot of ideas. Star Wars sounds just like The Planets. But is that so awful? I mean, when it comes down to it, you have to do what you have to do to create the best accompaniment for the film, and sometimes that means composing stuff that you wouldn't if you were just composing. Composing out of your style, or, more specifically, in the style of someone else. You can't argue that Holst's ideas were perfect for capturing out of this world, spacey, planety music, so if you are composing for a film about other planets, it's only natural to observe his ideas.

Well certainly I watch a film and notice how well the camera angles and editing affect the flow of the film, but I understand that this is not the norm for all people.

And my point was that his music doesn't help to blend into the whole. I was saying that, like you agree, film making is a collaborative effort, and I feel that often times, Williams steps on the toes of the other creative forces.

On the other hand, I agree that it is indisputable that the jaws theme is one of the most fitting themes ever written. His themes always are. Someone mentioned the Harry Potter Theme. That, also, is so perfect for the film (though it sounds just like Neptune). But it is the music past the themes that I'm concerned with. If you look at the scoring of guys like James Newton Howard or Howard Shore! Yeah, let's take these two and look at two of their scores.

The King Kong Score: This, much like Jaws, or Harry Potter, or Star Wars, or Super Man is a film about something extravagant and unreal. He used very humane, and simple themes for his main themes. The "Beauty" Theme that plays throughout is just so simple and touching and gives such a human side to this huge ape. Of course, the action scenes are the action scenes, but he brings it down when he needs to and lets the actors do their part. Also, if you remember, halfway through the T-rex fight, the music cuts out (when they're hanging from the vines) this is fantastic! The whole fight sequence is about 15 minutes in length. Could you image 15 minutes of none-stop Jurrasic Park attack music?! He helped the flow of the film by not doing anything! Also, in the inset pit. Really effing creepy bugs and garbage eating people. That sounds intense right! that sounds like loud, bombastic, and heavy! but no! He used a very quite choir chanting softly in the backround, and it made the scene 10 times scarier! The lack of volume and action in the music created such a stark contrast to the images, that it made the images on screen seem even creepier and made the audience very unsettled.

LoTR: These films are undoubtedly some of the most epic ever made, and the score undoubtedly one of the best ever written. Never did I feel overwhelmed by it, though. There is no cliché pretension in the action scenes, no powerful action theme blasting through with a gigantic orchestra. There is so much going on visually that little needs to be added by the music. Many times in the action scenes, the score cuts out completely. Another thing that makes this score so fantastic is how well he captured each different race, with different ideas, instrumentations, themes, etcetera. It aided the lush color of the film and its diversity. It made the world seem much more realistic. This 9+ hour piece of music is truly outstanding, and there is little reliance on fantastic themes and loud, over dramatic orchestration. It is subtle, and perfect for the film it goes with.

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

. . . I don't even know what to say. Of course, people are entitled to their own opinions even if they are very poor.

that post you mention AZ, screams of utter ignorance, ingnorance of John Williams, ignorance of the Planets, and ignorance of Film Music in general. Yeah that poster has a love of LOTR that is fanboyish, which is ok, my love of Star Wars is too, yet Star Wars is a much better score than anything in the LOTR musical world, its not even close.

When people like that come on here, these newbies come here and make grandious statements, they can't back them up it sound like a so many others who have come here trying to pan this slant, like some cheap peddler with big balls, and small brains. When they say John stole Star Wars from the Planets thats not an opinion, its an attack on him and his music. To those people I say

Please take your sh!t elsewhere this stuff plays out of town now.

[Romão 2,274]

I must say sometimes I quite apreciate your honesty, Joe

[JoeinAR 1,949]

its fair to criticize John about some things, but to accuse him of plagerism of a classical work is going one step too far.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No way in hell is Shore better, LOTR are his only good scores IMO.

God you are so wrong.

Notice the 'IMO' at the end. He's a good composer, his other works are decent, but he's nothing special aside from the trilogy for me.

[AI 0]

Just to be clear, I was posting a reply from another message board . . . not my own..

I got that from the outset, that you were quoting someone else. Bear in mind, quite a few of the regular posters here do not speak English as a native language, so they are apt to not pick up on the subtle nuances of english. Such as mild sarcasm etc.

Having said that, what you quoted is a pile of horsegarbage, of the highest order. So well done there. You have been a good cat, by bringing this ignorance to attention.

[Henry B 50]

War of the Worlds, Geisha and Munich were scored spot on, even with the use of silence. It completely eludes how given his outstanding output in 2005, anyone could say his abilities are declining.

I agree on Geisha. In terms of functionality within the film, it's one of Williams's very best scores. Munich was relatively well spotted. You'll notice that there's some music on the CD that was wisely dropped from the film (in addition to tracks like "Avner's Theme" that are clearly concert pieces, I mean). I really have to disagree with you on War of the Worlds, though. The wall-to-wall music took away from the realism and suspense. The worst offender is "Attack on the Car," and it's very fortunate that Spielberg chose to drop it from the film. It was written to underscore the scene in which the family loses the van to the gunman. (I don't know this for a fact, so feel free to chip in if you have information to the contrary.)

I'd say that the Star Wars prequels and Harry Potter films more obviously illustrate the problems with wall-to-wall scoring.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually I believe it was composed for another scene that was completely cut from the film.

[A24 4,351]

A director is a brain and he is trying to tell a story. The actors help tell the story, the dialouge helps tell the story, the camera angles, the lighting, the costumes, the make up, the special effects, the computer animation, the editing, and the music. A composer's job is, like that of the director of photography, or the make-up artist, or the editor, is to help tell the director's story.

Yes, but sometimes the composer tells his side of the story. If he does it successfully, the film becomes more layered (which leads to a richer result). A good director will recognize that and put his own ego aside.

Alex

[indy4 155]

I have yet to see a JW film where the music doesn't fit the film. I certainly have several JW scores that bore me in terms of listening experiance, but all of them work in context with the film.

Having said that, there are some great moments in film that are scored without music. I couldn't say whether there are any particular scenes JW scored where I would prefer no music without seeing the scene first with music, and again after.

And I disagree with that post you quoted, Az.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Actually I believe it was composed for another scene that was completely cut from the film.

I think so too

[Incanus 5,722]

Amazing! Somebody on another MB thinks differently than the majority here about JW. Shocking! And of course everything this guy said is the ultimate truth. How could it not be? We all have a monopoly on truth here.

[Luke Skywalker 1,797]

Amazing! Somebody on another MB thinks differently than the majority here about JW. Shocking! And of course everything this guy said is the ultimate truth. How could it not be? We all have a monopoly on truth here.

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

Incanus, the wrongness of that name there has nothing to do with JW fanboyism....

Shore composed three great score with LOTR, but the other two better than Williams, come on!

Statements like that on a 1st post...i dont know it just seems like a senior member making fun with another account.

And we are having a some new members of late with a little controversial attitude...

Mmm, im sorry Azoutcast, i somehow forgot you and asumed you were a new member (i thought it was your 1st post) and that those were your opinions (you could have quoted it somehow, though )

Just to be clear, I was posting a reply from another message board . . . not my own..

I got that from the outset, that you were quoting someone else. Bear in mind, quite a few of the regular posters here do not speak English as a native language, so they are apt to not pick up on the subtle nuances of english. Such as mild sarcasm etc.

<_< I suppose that applies here

[Incanus 5,722]

Well if that is his opinion then let him have his opinion. Gathering around this one random comment from some other messageboard to gawk and sound horrified and outraged noises is just silly.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

No way in hell is Shore better, LOTR are his only good scores IMO.

God you are so wrong.

Notice the 'IMO' at the end. He's a good composer, his other works are decent, but he's nothing special aside from the trilogy for me.

Uh, The Fly? Absolutely incredible operatic music. M. Butterfly, wonderful. Ed Wood, excellent. My boy, perhaps when you're older, you'll discover the introverted beauty of Shore's non LOTR scores.

[Romão 2,274]

Silence of the Lambs

[Luke Skywalker 1,797]

Well if that is his opinion then let him have his opinion. Gathering around this one random comment from some other messageboard to gawk and sound horrified and outraged noises is just silly.

Yeah, if you put it that way.

But you sounded like if people that complained were Williams biased and we might be wrong and not see beyond our eyes.

But Zimmer-Wise, we know the truth.

[indy4 155]

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

Incanus, the wrongness of that name there has nothing to do with JW fanboyism....

Like it or not, outside of this forum, Hans Zimmer is a very very popular composer.

[Luke Skywalker 1,797]

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

Incanus, the wrongness of that name there has nothing to do with JW fanboyism....

Like it or not, outside of this forum, Hans Zimmer is a very very popular composer.

Popular and good dont have to be together

[JoeinAR 1,949]

but that doesnt mean they cant be together either.

[indy4 155]

Williams does some outstanding work, and it is obvious to see why he is the highest paid composer of our time, but he is too often placed at the top of a pedestal on which he does not belong. Zimmer, Howard, and Shore all compose much better scores.

Incanus, the wrongness of that name there has nothing to do with JW fanboyism....

Like it or not, outside of this forum, Hans Zimmer is a very very popular composer.

Popular and good dont have to be together

Let me rephrase that: Like it or not, outside of this forum, many people think that Hans Zimmer is a very very good composer.

[Red 75]

And this has now become a Zimmer thread.

[Luke Skywalker 1,797]

They surely dont know much about film music.

(and with this i mean that most are hip hop, pop teenagers that got amazed easily with any MV score)

[King Mark 3,631]

FSM MB seems to be having one of their underhanded Williams bashing threads right now .It's always about putting Goldsmith in a better light.

Usual gibberish that means nothing

Goldsmith emphasized that Max was an integrated, organic whole by distinctly employing a theme-and-variation approach. Williams, meanwhile, effectively "segmented" the pictures he scored by applying one theme here, a totally different one there, etc. blah blah blah..whatever...

[steb74 53]

Indeed Mark, it's incredibly embarrassing and cringe inducing reading the amount of fiction people try and palm of as facts about Williams' ability as opposed to the reality of what is actually going on within his music.

It can be amusing though reading some of the reasons why Williams isn't and could never be as skilled as some of these peoples fav composers

[Ollie 1,059]

I still say someone needs to start a "Why do you hate Jerry Goldsmith's Music?" thread over there.

[indy4 155]

From the Why Do You Hate Williams Scores? topic on FSM (I skipped to page ten):

What I mean is that the traits we males tend to genderize as 'feminine' are really certain traits of our own, but you have said this already. Many men will assume women to be more intuitive, feeling, etc.. because it is their OWN intuitive, feeling, etc. that tends to personify itself (in art, in dreams, in fantasy etc.) as a 'woman'. To call such things therefore an 'inner woman' is a shorthand way of talking about the 'muse' etc.. Put simply, if men desire women, then OTHER qualities and ideals and entities they desire may be 'seen' as 'women' too. And because women 'inspire' men in a very primal way, then more sophisticated or deeper 'inspirations' may be personified as 'women' too. The problem arises when REAL women get mixed up with the 'muse' or 'goddess'.

Not sure what this has to do with JW, but okay...

[Delorean90 42]

I think it had something to do with someone wanting Williams's testes to be included in his scores. Personally, I'm fine without them--but that's just me.

[indy4 155]

It really gives the word "fanboy" a new meaning.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Nevertheless, I've found Goldsmith always wrote music with balls.

Even Mulan kicks all sorts of major ass, despite the movie's otherwise fluffy and cutesy appearance.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I agree. Jerry Goldsmith is John Williams for men.

[Jeshopk 8]

I have always thought though, Jerry's "feminine" themes have many times been painful and much worse than his action or suspense music from the same scores. Sometimes Goldsmith seemed to lean on the"easy listening" button when expressing love or innocence. He pulled it off in Poltergeist and First Knight, but was too saccharine in things like Omen, Capricorn One, and Congo. And let's face it, having heard most of his scores, I can say Goldsmith's music ranged from downright unlistenable to amazingly brlliant. Williams ranges from meh to amazingly brilliant, but never downright awful. Who here can say they honestly bought Jerry's scores on his name alone, knowing it would be good - as so many people have with Williams. There was always that worry - will the next score be another Rent-A-Cop?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I agree. Jerry Goldsmith is John Williams for men.

thats a bullcrap comment, are you saying that JG is better than JW,

he isn't,

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Not saying that.

[Hitch 57]

I once mentioned John Williams in the same breath as Jerry Goldsmith on the HornerShrine. My chins are still feeling the repercussions.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

is that place still there, so many music sites I don't look at these days, that being one, FSM and Movie Music being two others.

[indy4 155]

I agree. Jerry Goldsmith is John Williams for men.

Yeah, nothing's more manly than Carol Anne's Theme

[Hlao-roo 389]

is that place still there, so many music sites I don't look at these days, that being one, FSM and Movie Music being two others.

Discussion at rec.music.movies, FILMUS-L, Filmtracks, and MovieMusic.com has largely stagnated, or is at least down considerably both in content and quantity from their heydays. FSM, MainTitles, and here appear to get the lion's share of the traffic these days, at least among predominantly English-speaking forums.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually Goldsmith was very capable of writing "feminine" themes and wrote many of them.