Should Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone have deserved the Academy Award in 2001?

[TownerFan 4,991]

It's probably the most useless poll in history, as probably the majority of us will answer "Yes". However it's interesting to explain why John Williams' Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone should have won the Academy Award for Best Original Score that year.

I played the score recently and I was constantly in awe yet again at how beautiful this score is. It's a perfect depiction of the world and the characters created by J.K. Rowling. It's a score full of shimmering, bright melodies and themes, infused with a touch of levity and humor that it's almost Mozart-ian. It's written by a composer at the top of his game, showing a command of the orchestra that is absolutely unique. In one word: it's a classic.

Therefore I believe it should have won the Oscar because it's pretty impressive that John Williams, at 70, was able to create another such timeless film music classic, as he did with E.T., Jaws, Indiana Jones and of course Star Wars. Yes, we can say that only in hindsight, but I bet a lot of JW fans were totally convinced about it since the first time they listened to the score. Well, that was my opinion for sure, back then. I remember clearly the first time I heard "Hedwig's Theme" and "Harry's Wondrous World" on CD: I was completely blown away.

The Best Score line-up that year was impressive and I'm happy Howard Shore won for The Lord of the Rings. However, considering that he then won again two years later for Return of the King, maybe it would have been even nicer if Williams was the winner.

What do you think?

[Datameister 2,073]

I'll take it over FOTR - my favorite of the three, mind you - any day. It certainly struck me as an instant classic.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Yes it should have. I'm not happy Howard Shore won for FOTR. He just perpetuated the bizarre fascination the movies have for crappy pseudo-Irish sounding movie scores. The Hobbits were supposed to represent the English people in Tolkien's books, not the Irish. I was really looking forward to an English-sounding score. Instead we got Titanic 2.

[TownerFan 4,991]

That's a bit harsh. I don't think Shore's music sound like a phony Irish thing. It's known how much he researched and studied the old English folk music and that he used it as the basis for the Hobbit material.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I think there were 3 deserving score that year, HP, AI and FOTR. I can't complain if any one of those were the winner.

[Ollie 1,064]

No, I would have given the award to A.I. over Potter.

Although I can't argue with Shore winning for Fellowship.

[Wojo 2,453]

The person who "deserves" the Oscar is a lot different than the person who actually wins.

That being said, Williams' chances were shot when he was nominated for two. Even if the voters wanted to give JW the Oscar, they had to pick which one out of two films, so unless they put their heads together and picked one over the other, he was doomed. FOTR won. I'm not sad.

[publicist 4,643]

And considering that Potter I is just warmed-over Williams, no matter how enthusiastic a Williams fanboard may jubilate over it, and the movie isn't brimming with imagination, either, a simple nomination is more than sufficient.

[TownerFan 4,991]

However, I was not implying that Shore didn't deserve the Oscar. He surely deserved it as much as Williams. My point was that I believe HPPS is a true classic that deserved to be recognized with an Academy Award. But I'm not sad that it didn't win, JW has helluva prizes already.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

No, I would have given the award to A.I. over Potter.

I agree. I personally consider Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone to be good with some great highlights, but A.I. I consider to be an absolute masterpiece.

[MSM 126]

I think yes. The musical content is more interesting than LOTR, although the latter is certainly worth praise.

However, as always Williams' music has the stronger themes, the better orchestrations and harmonic developments while LOTR has too much of "filling in the harmonics" parts instead of proper counterpoint and interesting voicing.

[Red 75]

No, I would have given the award to A.I. over Potter.

Although I can't argue with Shore winning for Fellowship.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

No, I would have given the award to A.I. over Potter.

Although I can't argue with Shore winning for Fellowship.

Wisdom as usual.

[Quintus 5,399]

FotR's score shits all over Harry Potter's. It ain't even close. The Harry Potter score isn't even vintage Williams, IMO.

[Marian Schedenig 8,240]

No.

Judging on its own, it certainly deserved an Oscar. I've been listening to Williams since 94 (i.e. way before the Potters), but I'd definitely rank it among Williams' great scores. Thematically, it's one of his most complex, combined with orchestrations at the peak of his art. Still, Shore's first part of the LOTR scores with his Ring-like use of themes and unexpectedly comprehensive depiction of Tolkien's world definitely deserved the Oscar for being the year's best *film score*. Williams' score should have won the Grammy as being the best *music* written for a film.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

A.I. > Sorcerer's Stone

[Romão 2,276]

I also agree AI was the most deserving score. But Harry Potter still is superior musically by mile to FOTR.

[Luke Skywalker 1,805]

NO. AI should have won.

I wouldnt anything against shore winning, if he had not won for ROTK also.

[Richard Penna 3,752]

Here we go again...

I consider FotR and potter to be equal in terms of overall quality of the score. They both have elements that annoy me and a complete Potter would not go without a couple of edits.

And I think they both deserved to win - simple as that.

[Diego 21]

I voted for I don't know. I've always found Awards to be a waste of time. How can anyone tell what's more deserving?? It's not like everyone tried to make the same movie. For example, in 1977, two of my favorite movies, Star Wars and Annie Hall were nominated for best movie. Is there a way to compare the two?? Space Opera vs. Woody Allen comedy??

Anyway, A.I. is way more original than Potter, it's darker and probably a more complex score, overall I would say it's a better score. Potter is a lot more derivative, it's Home Alone meets Hook meets Witches of Eastwick meets Indiana Jones. But is also the kind of score that a lot of people love (myself included) with a lot of great themes and action cues. It's certainly more fun than A.I. Two good scores, very different I don't think I could choose one, although I enjoy Potter more.

Add in the fact that FOTR was a good score too and the Academy really had a tough choice to make, not that it really matters as I don't think the quality of the music is what dictates the winner. FOTR may very well be the best score of 2001, but in the end it probably won because the movie was the more popular and critically acclaimed of the three. Not a bad year though.

[Wojo 2,453]

A John Williams score, derivative? Surely you jest.

[John Crichton 4]

Yes it should have. I'm not happy Howard Shore won for FOTR. He just perpetuated the bizarre fascination the movies have for crappy pseudo-Irish sounding movie scores. The Hobbits were supposed to represent the English people in Tolkien's books, not the Irish. I was really looking forward to an English-sounding score. Instead we got Titanic 2.

Irish hating lymie!

No, I would have given the award to A.I. over Potter.

Well, given the choice the Academy would have chosen AI over Potter, though I consider SS to be the better score, though AI is certainly great too (and both better than the generally overrated PoA). Thanks for bringing this up Maruizio, it seems like SS often doesn't get the respect it deserves. Sure it's not as innovative as PoA or even AI, but it's Williams doing everything he does best at a peak level, and I don't see how anyone can argue with that.

That being said, it's hard to argue against FotR. I actually just recently listened to LotR again for the first time in quite a while and enjoyed every last bit of it, even The Two Towers, which is a first! Wonderful scores.

[Neimoidian 14]

I voted no. I find FotR superior score. HP&PS is a splendid effort by Williams, but too predictable and conventional for my taste. FotR, on the other hand, established musical sound for Middle-earth in a way Harry and his firend could only dream of. Every culture there is described musically, the songs are based on the actual languages conceived by Tolkien, leitmotiv approach is by no means inferior to Williams's... Moreover, FotR offered a "new", unique sound - a sound that one easily identifies with LotR (and not with, for example, Conan, Willow, Krull or any other fantasy movie), unlike HP which is a mixture of stuff already presented in Hook and Home Alone. Last but not least, FotR is in my opinion way more exciting to listen than HP&PS and even A.I. (a score - despite its atrocious album presentation - superior to HP&PS). And I don't give a damn it's not as technically complex as Williams' ones. It never had to be.

[John Crichton 4]

I'll certainly give you that, LotR is instantly identifiable.

[Luke Skywalker 1,805]

the songs are based on the actual languages conceived by Tolkien

Well, i think that is rather predictable. Why use latin, sanskrit or other language when the works you are scoring have their own languages. If i were a composer (THE composer of the LOTR movies), using tolkien languages for the chorus would have been my 1st option too.

BTW nothing new: Huttese and ewokese lyrics in ROTJ, 20 years before ROTK...

Shore's leitmotif approach is rather excesive. And sometimes unnoticeable. IIRC there is some 'Aragorn in the fellowship' (or was it 'aragorn's heroics') or 'Gandalf in the Fellowship' motives that are just orchestrations or note changes of the Fellowship motif.

I call that 'different renditions of a theme' in other composers.

PD: shore's work is great.

[Marian Schedenig 8,240]

Shore's leitmotif approach is rather excesive. And sometimes unnoticeable. IIRC there is some 'Aragorn in the fellowship' (or was it 'aragorn's heroics') or 'Gandalf in the Fellowship' motives that are just orchestrations or note changes of the Fellowship motif.

I call that 'different renditions of a theme' in other composers.

Wagner didn't.

[Neimoidian 14]

the songs are based on the actual languages conceived by Tolkien

Well, i think that is rather predictable. Why use latin, sanskrit or other language when the works you are scoring have their own languages. If i were a composer (THE composer of the LOTR movies), using tolkien languages for the chorus would have been my 1st option too.

BTW nothing new: Huttese and ewokese lyrics in ROTJ, 20 years before ROTK...

But Shore didn't go that lame RotS route with wordless vocalises only. He actually took the effort of implementing Tolkien's songs into the score (with great result) and (co-)wrote some new ones, also using that made-up languages.

[John Crichton 4]

Shore's leitmotif approach is rather excesive. And sometimes unnoticeable. IIRC there is some 'Aragorn in the fellowship' (or was it 'aragorn's heroics') or 'Gandalf in the Fellowship' motives that are just orchestrations or note changes of the Fellowship motif.

I agree with you to a degree about the submotifs and variations, but you can't deny that just taking into account all the main themes it is a very impressive body of work.

[TownerFan 4,991]

Well, surely the poll is appearing not as useless as I was thinking it could have been. I remembered there were many many Harry Potter lovers (both film and score) here. It's interesting to read all your opinions.

However, I see it's rapidly becoming more a kind of competition LOTR vs. Harry Potter (or Shore vs. Williams, if you prefer) and I didn't mean that way. I was trying to understand why this successful and brilliant score should have won an Oscar.

I agree awards are not an important thing, so it doesn't really matter who won and who lose, nor who deserved it more.

[King Mark 3,631]

Again this thread serves to highlight the pseudo-Williams fans who think HPSS is "warmed over" Williams from the 80's .

HPSS is up there in the classics with Star Wars,Raiders,E.T.,Jurassic Park...I always get outraged when some people shoot down a pure blood Williams score like HPSS yet post on a Williams fan site every day

[SF1_freeze 131]

No.

Judging on its own, it certainly deserved an Oscar. I've been listening to Williams since 94 (i.e. way before the Potters), but I'd definitely rank it among Williams' great scores. Thematically, it's one of his most complex, combined with orchestrations at the peak of his art. Still, Shore's first part of the LOTR scores with his Ring-like use of themes and unexpectedly comprehensive depiction of Tolkien's world definitely deserved the Oscar for being the year's best *film score*. Williams' score should have won the Grammy as being the best *music* written for a film.

Exactly what i was thinking

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Again this thread serves to highlight the pseudo-Williams fans who think HPSS is "warmed over" Williams from the 80's .

HPSS is up there in the classics with Star Wars,Raiders,E.T.,Jurassic Park...I always get outraged when some people shoot down a pure blood Williams score like HPSS yet post on a Williams fan site every day

Absolutely! Someone else with some sense. Well said, KM.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

AI is only worthy of collecting dust. Its a better score than the movie deserved but its not a memorable score. The electronic noise in it is horrid.

[John Crichton 4]

AI is only worthy of collecting dust. Its a better score than the movie deserved but its not a memorable score.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

People thought PS/SS was a dull score when it came out. Now everyone loves it. Even Filmtracks has upgraded its rating from a 4 to a 5.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

People are fickle. HPPS has always been an exciting and fun score for me. I'm really surprised most people on this thread don't rate it all that highly. Hedwig's theme is one of Williams' most classic piaces, and the "winter melody" (not sure what fandom calls this theme, but it first appears when Harry lets Hedwig fly around in the snowy grounds of Hogwarts) is beautiful!

[Datameister 2,073]

That's usually called the family theme, I believe. Its first statement is actually much earlier in the film, just before Hagrid arrives. And yes, it's an absolutely gorgeous theme.

I probably ought to never allow myself to get more familiar with Hook than I currently am. I just might realize that everyone actually was right, and HP:SS is little more than a rehash. Then again, I DO know Home Alone, and I can hear the difference there...oh well. Ignorance is bliss.

[John Crichton 4]

That theme is actually a variation on Harry's theme. It's generally called the family or friends theme, but I consider them to be the same.

Sorcerer's Stone is not Hook rehash. They and Home Alone share similar roots but each is very much its own score.

[Datameister 2,073]

That theme is actually a variation on Harry's theme. It's generally called the family or friends theme, but I consider them to be the same.

You mean the one presented near the beginning of "Harry's Wondrous World"? How do you figure? I mean, it's heard as part of the same concert suite, but the two share little in common. Different chord progression, different melody, different affect, different uses in the score.

[publicist 4,643]

Again this thread serves to highlight the pseudo-Williams fans who think HPSS is "warmed over" Williams from the 80's .

HPSS is up there in the classics with Star Wars,Raiders,E.T.,Jurassic Park...I always get outraged when some people shoot down a pure blood Williams score like HPSS yet post on a Williams fan site every day

I hardly post here once in a week. Am i allowed to take a lukewarm position on Potter AND Jurassic Park or have i to reduce my postings to once a year, then?

[Neimoidian 14]

Again this thread serves to highlight the pseudo-Williams fans who think HPSS is "warmed over" Williams from the 80's .

HPSS is up there in the classics with Star Wars,Raiders,E.T.,Jurassic Park...I always get outraged when some people shoot down a pure blood Williams score like HPSS yet post on a Williams fan site every day

HP&PS isn't warmed over for the most part, but isn't anything exceptionally fresh and creative either. It bears more resemblance to JW's scores from the 90s than 80s though. My initial reaction to this score wasn't favourable at all, but by now I have warmed up to it enough to appreciate it for what it is. Still, I find it inferior to FotR - not necesarilly in technical terms, because few film composers can surpass Williams' writing quality, but in terms of the content, the substance (understood as - if I may put it this way - "the material that captures my attention, stmulates my imagination and resonates with my emotions").

Finally, I don't accept Williams' canon as being the definite body of work that one must like (or in fact cherish) to be considered a TRUE Williams fan . It's the diversity of his works that I find particularly awe inspiring about JW as a composer and I'm personally more into his drama scores (like Seven Years in Tibet or Amistad) than, say, ones like Hook or Jurassic Park. And by this fact I don't consider myself pseudo fan. Or should I?

[TownerFan 4,991]

Judging on its own, it certainly deserved an Oscar. I've been listening to Williams since 94 (i.e. way before the Potters), but I'd definitely rank it among Williams' great scores. Thematically, it's one of his most complex, combined with orchestrations at the peak of his art. Still, Shore's first part of the LOTR scores with his Ring-like use of themes and unexpectedly comprehensive depiction of Tolkien's world definitely deserved the Oscar for being the year's best *film score*. Williams' score should have won the Grammy as being the best *music* written for a film.

I think Williams' music, especially in the first Potter film, is more than "only" great music written for a film. It's great film music because it sustain almost exclusively on its own all the gravitas and the sense of wonder of the movie. I noticed it even more than before the last time I happened to watch the film on TV: the music carries all the sense of "magic" and mystery all by itself. I bet if we could watch the movie without the music, suddenly we would realize how hollow and empty it would be. Williams reached the core of Rowling's written page much more than the screenwriter and the director, imho. Take for example the scene where Gryffyndor wins the House Cup, or the scene at Ollivander's shop. The music creates what is generally called the "Third Dimension" on the screen.

So, in this sense I believe HPPS is a great film score as much as FOTR. Yes, Shore's work has lot more subtlety and an amazing level of detail and care, but he started with a much greater and thicker literary subject. I think both composers have written what could be the perfect score to the book first, and then adapted it onto the respective movies.

[Luke Skywalker 1,805]

Shore's leitmotif approach is rather excesive. And sometimes unnoticeable. IIRC there is some 'Aragorn in the fellowship' (or was it 'aragorn's heroics') or 'Gandalf in the Fellowship' motives that are just orchestrations or note changes of the Fellowship motif.

I call that 'different renditions of a theme' in other composers.

Wagner didn't.

Then shame on him too

Really someone should analise the Star Wars soundtracks with this definition of leif motif. I think it would translate in as many motifs as LOTR...

But Shore didn't go that lame RotS route with wordless vocalises only.

Wordless chorus is lame?

Shore has still to wrote something like 'dark side beckons'.

Anyway, there are still some vocals in rots (nad not just DOTF).

Sometimes the chorus in LOTR sounds like people yelling, not chanting...

Shore's leitmotif approach is rather excesive. And sometimes unnoticeable. IIRC there is some 'Aragorn in the fellowship' (or was it 'aragorn's heroics') or 'Gandalf in the Fellowship' motives that are just orchestrations or note changes of the Fellowship motif.

I agree with you to a degree about the submotifs and variations, but you can't deny that just taking into account all the main themes it is a very impressive body of work.

For a +12 hour film, i think that the true main themes are not as many as there should be.

[Neimoidian 14]

But Shore didn't go that lame RotS route with wordless vocalises only.

Wordless chorus is lame?

Shore has still to wrote something like 'dark side beckons'.

Anyway, there are still some vocals in rots (nad not just DOTF).

Sometimes the chorus in LOTR sounds like people yelling, not chanting...

Vocalises, like other choral works, can be either good or lame. Dark Side Beckons or that soprano at the end of AotC are terrific. There are lots of great vocalises in other JW's works too - A.I., Amistad, PoA... However I regret I cannot say the same about cues like Battle of the Heroes or Anakin's Dark Deeds where chorus sounds very generic to my ear (especially in BoH). Like if JW didn't care and simply put some Ahs and Ohs because George wanted choral music. I like Anakin's Betrayal though.

[John Crichton 4]

I think the choral work in RotS is amazing, with Lament being the pinnacle. But I've always preferred wordless choir.

[Quintus 5,399]

The only cues I really like from Harry Potter are Hedwig's theme, The Quidditch Match and The Chess Game. Everything else is JW muzak, as I remember it. I know many here like Harry's Wondrous World, but its too slushy for my tastes.

Hook is a million times better.

[Marian Schedenig 8,240]

That theme is actually a variation on Harry's theme. It's generally called the family or friends theme, but I consider them to be the same.

You mean the one presented near the beginning of "Harry's Wondrous World"? How do you figure? I mean, it's heard as part of the same concert suite, but the two share little in common. Different chord progression, different melody, different affect, different uses in the score.

Harry, like Voldemort, has two themes. The family theme is one of them, representing Harry in his relations to family/friends. Both are part of Harry's Wondrous World.

[Datameister 2,073]

I know many here like Harry's Wondrous World, but its too slushy for my tastes.

I used to agree, but it's grown on me. My biggest problem with it now is simply the fact that parts of it are taken more or less directly from the film.

Hook is a million times slushier.

Fixed that for ya.

[Quintus 5,399]

Hook is one of JW's slushiest scores ever, but the melodies are so strong he gets away with it.

[Datameister 2,073]

That's how I feel about most of the "slushy" parts in HP:SS - which do not constitute the entire score, mind you.