La-La Land Records' HOOK (2CD Expanded) Discussion thread

[bollemanneke 3,529]

Interesting. Can you reveal which MM projects JW didn't approve that easily? Was there a turning point?

[Jay 38,749]

I don't think so.  Just gradually getting to know each other and working together towards a process that made everyone happy

[crumbs 14,584]

38 minutes ago, Jay said:

The "team" was basically Didier, who really is less competent than Mike, absolutely.  Takis and Bulk did what they could to try fix things, but only so much could be done.

 

Times certainly have changed. It's surprising to think that, according to Didier in your interview from 2012, the main reason Mike had nothing to do with Hook is because he tapes were located in New York, and Mike was based in LA at the time.

 

Like the location of the masters tapes matters whatsoever now! 

 

It almost makes me sad the project hadn't fallen through in 2012 and instead come to fruition under Mike's auspices a few years later, when he could do it properly alongside A.I., TLW, etc. But who knows, maybe the Hook expansion (flawed as it was) paved the way for everything that followed. A necessarily evil, perhaps... 

[bollemanneke 3,529]

They could also just have waited until they had found everyhing. That would be my red line if it were up to me to make that decision. They must have known back then this wasn't something they could revisit the next year.

[Chewy 2,471]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Now when he refers to "songs" that were omitted for being repetitive, is this just Google Translate misinterpreting 'cues' or 'tracks', or could he be referring to some of the infamous lost songs that Williams was rumoured to have written for the earlier musical incarnation of Hook?

The original french word he used is "morceaux" which means "tracks".

[Jurassic Shark 12,781]

I think the original word he used was "horcrux".

[bollemanneke 3,529]

Another unhappy thought: If they used the film stem for some parts, why couldn't they also use it to get the food insert? Or isn't the flim stem the actual isolated score taken from the movie, is it something that's completely independent of the movie itself and needs to be saved separately?

[John Dutton 7,183]

It was likely decided the alternate version from the OST was JW's preference for listening purposes and they wouldn't have to do any work to put it on there, so it's a win-win. The guy in charge may not have even been aware of the insert's existence. Sorry, film version! 

[1977 1,745]

I thought Williams had nixed the cornucopia insert, similar to his rejection of the extended Desert Chase when Concord did their Raiders.

 

If Hook is not one of the final two Sony Music titles due from LLL then I hope that they (Sony) pull a Ghostbusters and release it themselves (obviously licencing the film tracks from Sony Pictures where relevant). I know Hook ain't Ghostbusters in terms of the film's appeal or legacy, but perhaps the legacy of JW and his vast Sony catalogue along with the allure of a double vinyl picture set sprinkled with pixie dust will entice them to do it.

[Jay 38,749]

26 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Another unhappy thought: If they used the film stem for some parts, why couldn't they also use it to get the food insert? Or isn't the flim stem the actual isolated score taken from the movie, is it something that's completely independent of the movie itself and needs to be saved separately?

 

They could have grabbed the Cornucopia insert from the film's music stem if they wanted to.  I honestly don't even know if Didier noticed it was any different in the film or not.

[crumbs 14,584]

I'd always been under the impression JW asked for that insert to be removed because he preferred the OST version without it, just like he asked to retain the slowed down version of the prologue after LLL tried to correct the speed to how it was recorded.

[King Mark 3,666]

9 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

I thought Williams had nixed the cornucopia insert, similar to his rejection of the extended Desert Chase when Concord did their Raiders.

 

If Hook is not one of the final two Sony Music titles due from LLL then I hope that they (Sony) pull a Ghostbusters and release it themselves (obviously licencing the film tracks from Sony Pictures where relevant). I know Hook ain't Ghostbusters in terms of the film's appeal or legacy, but perhaps the legacy of JW and his vast Sony catalogue along with the allure of a double vinyl picture set sprinkled with pixie dust will entice them to do it.

 

don't expect anything from Sony. If they do released it it won't be what we want anyways

[John Dutton 7,183]

Sony has a really bad reputation for no reason.

[King Mark 3,666]

They sat on the SW Prequel scores for 20 years and never released expansions except the very flawed TPM UE

They never remastered the SW OT properly despite releasing it several times with fake re-mastering

They include Variations on Happy Birthday on a 50 disk set that costs 200$

Multiple useless re-packaging of c.d.'s we had before

Spielberg/Williams colaboration Vol.3 on a 3 c.d. set only

AotC bonus cue on US Target stores only

 

There was several other times when we cursed them I can't remember for now

 

[mstrox 6,778]

There’s a smaller set with the happy birthday thing - it’s like two or three discs

[Jurassic Shark 12,781]

1 hour ago, King Mark said:

They include Variations on Happy Birthday on a 50 disk set that costs 200$

 

There's a single disc release of that.

 

 

[John Dutton 7,183]

2 hours ago, King Mark said:

They sat on the SW Prequel scores for 20 years and never released expansions except the very flawed TPM UE

They never remastered the SW OT properly despite releasing it several times with fake re-mastering

They include Variations on Happy Birthday on a 50 disk set that costs 200$

Multiple useless re-packaging of c.d.'s we had before

Spielberg/Williams colaboration Vol.3 on a 3 c.d. set only

AotC bonus cue on US Target stores only

 

There was several other times when we cursed them I can't remember for now

 

 

That's mostly LucasFilm, not Sony.

[1977 1,745]

2 hours ago, King Mark said:

 

don't expect anything from Sony. If they do released it it won't be what we want anyways

 

Well they are giving us Ghostbusters...let's try to stay positive

[John Dutton 7,183]

Ghostbusters is better than Star Wars anyway.

[Incanus 5,784]

6 hours ago, crumbs said:

I'd always been under the impression JW asked for that insert to be removed because he preferred the OST version without it, just like he asked to retain the slowed down version of the prologue after LLL tried to correct the speed to how it was recorded.

Hook needs a Mike Matessino treatment very badly. If anyone it would be Mike who could sell the complete chronological programme inserts included to JW if all the elements of this score were found. 

 

There are quite a few little things still officially unreleased from Hook, like the awesome finale of End of Hook which the LLL could not get from the film stems since it was dialled out of the movie.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

I'd always been under the impression JW asked for that insert to be removed because he preferred the OST version without it, just like he asked to retain the slowed down version of the prologue after LLL tried to correct the speed to how it was recorded.

How do you know JW asked for the wrong speed and the insert removal? I didn't even know Bulk was involved until yesterday, so isn't it more likely that, just like with Titanic, Bulk decided to keep as much of the OST as possible and JW never even knew about it? People keep saying JW was difficult about all sorts of things, but he never 'acts up' with MM, Schindler excluded of course.

[crumbs 14,584]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

How do you know JW asked for the wrong speed and the insert removal? I didn't even know Bulk was involved until yesterday, so isn't it more likely that, just like with Titanic, Bulk decided to keep as much of the OST as possible and JW never even knew about it? People keep saying JW was difficult about all sorts of things, but he never 'acts up' with MM, Schindler excluded of course.

 

I believe there was a discussion thread on FSM after the set's release where that exact question was asked -- and answered. I didn't just imagine it, at least I don't think I did.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

Oh, I'm sure you didn't imagine it, I just find it really hard to believe JW would insist on having a cue presented at the wrong speedand then be okay with the alternate at the right speed.

[Incanus 5,784]

The album producer Didier C. Deutsch mentioned specifically that Williams gave his input on the LLL Hook set which resulted in the programme we hear on it today.

 

From the interview conducted by Jason LeBlanc at the time of the set coming out

Quote

How involved was John Williams in this release?

His representative, Jamie Richardson, was in frequent touch with Michael Gerhard, guiding us in the final presentation and sequencing of the two CDs, and relaying to us the comments made by the composer. I should also mention that we received tremendous support from Jaime Cyr, director of music licensing at Sony Pictures, without whose help getting this release out might have been uncertain.

 

From another interview conducted by UnderScores.fr (translated from French):

Quote

After numerous exchanges between his representatives and La-La Land, the release was endorsed by Williams.

The production cost was enormous, but fortunately Columbia came to the rescue. All I had to do was to go to the studio with my engineer, with all the elements in their place exactly as I designed the complete music of the film, from beginning to end. So we put on this double disc all we hear in the film, including pieces that have not been used. Meanwhile, John Williams, through his intermediaries, said he wanted to hear what we had done. He made a few suggestions. He asked that certain pieces that were repetitive be eliminated, and he excluded some pieces that didn’t fit with the rest of the score like Take Me out to the Ball Game. In short, he re-created the soundtrack as we hear it on this double disc.

 

[crumbs 14,584]

FOUND IT! Straight from the horse's mouth!

 

JWFanner Tim Burden actually had a podcast with LLL owners Matt Verboys & Michael Gerhard at the time of the 2012 Hook release. Skip to 28:40:

 

Quote

Tim: There's supposed to be hundreds of minutes ... lots of deleted scenes, aren't there?

MV: There certainly is and there's certainly truth to rumours about the film initially being a musical or such, or at least scenes being shot. It's certainly a story that has a fascinating history...

Michael: Lots of the [music] actually had lyrics to them at some point. [John] and Mr Bricusse sat down and worked on these wonderful songs that sadly, I dunno if they'll ever see the light of day... but you never know! Stranger things have happened! Who knows, maybe for the 25th Anniversary?

Tim: (laughs) So these are the elements that you tried to get your hands on and tried to find but basically you couldn't? Just -- no one knows where they are?

MV: Uhh... I can't say we didn't find them... uhh, we just couldn't use them. (laughs)

Tim: Ah.. gotcha. Enough said.

MV: Very complicated.

Tim: Well, yeah, I suppose there are legalities in all this aren't there...

MV: Certainly, yes.

 

Note: I have no idea whether it's MV or Michael speaking at any point, just guessing.

 

I haven't listened to the rest of this podcast but it's possible the prologue speed was addressed at some point (because this has to be the same place I first heard about LLL finding lots of material they weren't able to release back in 2012 for various reasons).

 

Interestingly, they even discuss deleted scenes (including that infamous rowboat scene with Jack, Smee and Hook) that were nowhere to be found on the new 4K set.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

Thanks! It never ceases to amaze me how these companies keep finding time to complicate everything.

[crumbs 14,584]

22 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Thanks! It never ceases to amaze me how these companies keep finding time to complicate everything.

 

You mean the legal issues/red tape? It's possible these particular legalities involved prohibitive royalties owed to Williams/Bricusse or maybe even the voice artists associated with the film (Robin/Dustin/Julia?)

 

It's hard to believe that 7 years after this release we're still so in the dark about exactly what LLL uncovered in those Sony vaults... and perhaps the saddest realisation is we might not find out for years to come (if ever).

[bollemanneke 3,529]

Yes, that's what I mean, none of these things should exist because the people who can afford to pay them don't care about the music and the people who can't, do care.

 

Wait, are you saying Roberts ever recorded a song for Hook?

[crumbs 14,584]

9 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Wait, are you saying Roberts ever recorded a song for Hook?

 

Your guess is as good as mine! It seems anyone who knows the answer isn't at liberty to say. Also from that podcast:

 

Quote

John Takis: The songs that wound up in Hook were never attached to that [earlier musical incarnation of Peter Pan]. We now know that ... Daniel Schweiger interviewed Leslie Bricusse, who was the lyricist, so we now know definitively that songs were actually written much closer to Hook.

 

And with it increasingly unlikely Hook survived the Sony third-party ban, not to mention the uphill battle Mike would face releasing such material (if it wasn't possible only 7 years ago)... well...

[bollemanneke 3,529]

 

I would have to disagree there.

 

I don't know if you ever knew about the fan hysteria/insanity surrounding Titanic, but LLL told those fans even in 2015 that Titanic was totally and utterly impossible.

 

And just look at the fantastic releases MM has been able to give us over the past few years.

 

Also, since they recently went to the trouble to remaster Hook the movie (not many people were waiting for that, I guess), I can't imagine them not re-doing the soundtrack, whether LLL was involved or not.

 

And finally, MV did not answer my Hook question on the FSM board. A 'no' would be a very easy thing to say, right?

 

And really finally, I can't imagine those specialty labels knew nothing about the Sony thing in advance. Someone must have known it was coming so they could prepare.

[crumbs 14,584]

Just now, bollemanneke said:

And finally, MV did not answer my Hook question on the FSM board. A 'no' would be a very easy thing to say, right? 

 

And really finally, I can't imagine those specialty labels knew nothing about the Sony thing in advance. Someone must have known it was coming so they could prepare.

 

Didn't know you asked MV definitively, so that's encouraging.

 

For all we know LLL are in limbo, not knowing whether or not they can proceed with a new version of Hook. I'm sure if they weren't aware of Sony's decision in advance (which is hard to believe, considering the industry) then they got on the front foot the moment they heard.

[Gurkensalat 346]

Schrödingers Hook!

[TownerFan 4,998]

21 hours ago, crumbs said:

It's hard to believe that 7 years after this release we're still so in the dark about exactly what LLL uncovered in those Sony vaults... and perhaps the saddest realisation is we might not find out for years to come (if ever).

 

20 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I don't know if you ever knew about the fan hysteria/insanity surrounding Titanic, but LLL told those fans even in 2015 that Titanic was totally and utterly impossible.

 

And just look at the fantastic releases MM has been able to give us over the past few years.

 

Also, since they recently went to the trouble to remaster Hook the movie (not many people were waiting for that, I guess), I can't imagine them not re-doing the soundtrack, whether LLL was involved or not.

 

And finally, MV did not answer my Hook question on the FSM board. A 'no' would be a very easy thing to say, right?

 

And really finally, I can't imagine those specialty labels knew nothing about the Sony thing in advance. Someone must have known it was coming so they could prepare.

 

I'd suggest you guys to sit down and relax. I'm sure that whenever Hook will reappear (be it on LLL or Sony Soundtracks) everything will be done properly and all the issues will be addressed. In the time being, enjoy what you have and whatever else is coming soon.

[Jurassic Shark 12,781]

Is that a hint that a Hook release is imminent? I know you can't confirm.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

Yes, is it? DON'T MESS WITH ME, MAN, I'M A LAWYER!

[TownerFan 4,998]

Sorry, it is not a hint by any means. I don’t have any insider info. It’s just a rational hope based on common sense.

[Jurassic Shark 12,781]

Common sense doesn't work around here, mister!

[1977 1,745]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:03 PM, bollemanneke said:

Wait, are you saying Roberts ever recorded a song for Hook?

 

I read an article in the 90's in either Cinemascore or Soundtrack magazine that Julie Andrews had recorded vocals for Childhood from Hook as part of the sessions. I think it was an interview with Herbert W. Spencer if I recall.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

So how would that have worked if she never played any character?

[1977 1,745]

19 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

So how would that have worked if she never played any character?

 

I don't know but I remember reading it in that interview. Perhaps it was for the end titles or something. I wish I still had that magazine, I've searched online for it but nothing comes up.

 

Spencer also stated that Toni Tenille had been intended to record Can You Read My Mind for Superman in that same interview.

 

I also remember him relating that he told Williams on their meeting for the first time (regarding all those disaster movie scores) something along the lines of "Shit! Can't you get any decent movies to score?" or something similar.

 

It must have been Soundtrack magazine as I had a bunch of those for a while in the 90's. Can't think of any other magazine that it could have been.

[Holko 10,006]

Hearing more and more about unheard material... is there any chance there could be enough for 4 discs? Something like Titanic. 1&2 final intended unedited orchestral film version with prologue, exit music, credits, the works; 3 for alternates and album versions and sections replaced by film inserts; 4 for songs and source, including Ball Game, We don't Wanna Grow Up, that terrible little girl, and all recorded early demos? Maybe throw in concert arrangements here if there are any?

[crumbs 14,584]

3 hours ago, Holko said:

Hearing more and more about unheard material... is there any chance there could be enough for 4 discs? Something like Titanic. 1&2 final intended unedited orchestral film version with prologue, exit music, credits, the works; 3 for alternates and album versions and sections replaced by film inserts; 4 for songs and source, including Ball Game, We don't Wanna Grow Up, that terrible little girl, and all recorded early demos? Maybe throw in concert arrangements here if there are any?

 

I think 3 discs would be the maximum required for a "comprehensive" release @Holko but I'm not a scholar of the score nor do I have a definitive answer on how much music was recorded beyond the film score itself (except the confirmation that there was material LLL discovered in 2012 that wasn't allowed on their release).

 

It's entirely possible any future LLL expansion of Hook will merely rectify the issues with the previous release (reinstating the unreleased cues, replacing the film stem cues with legitimate sources, fixing the speed of the prologue) and not include any of this mysterious unreleased material that MV and MG alluded to but weren't at liberty to discuss.

 

On 6/8/2019 at 9:07 PM, TownerFan said:

I'd suggest you guys to sit down and relax. I'm sure that whenever Hook will reappear (be it on LLL or Sony Soundtracks) everything will be done properly and all the issues will be addressed. In the time being, enjoy what you have and whatever else is coming soon. 

 

Certainly channeling your positive energy @TownerFan !

 

Just hard not to be concerned given the circumstances. Via LLL, only 2 Sony scores (of potentially hundreds) have escaped their third-party ban -- not unreasonable to be concerned that Hook might have fallen victim to this new policy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,781]

Just include the unreleased material as a hidden bonus at the end of the final track.

[Unlucky Bastard 8,461]

They won't know.

[crumbs 14,584]

Just checked the runtime of LLL's Hook expansion and it only used 2:20 of the available 2:38 of disc space. That means any future release has more than enough space to include both versions of The Banquet (with and without insert), The Ultimate War Part I (with and without insert) and Flight to Neverland (short and extended) plus the short cues Williams omitted from the 2012 release, with some room to spare.

[Jurassic Shark 12,781]

Great, then there's room for the unreleased screensaver.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

I think 3 discs would be fine, disc 3 being the OST. That might ease JW's concerns about listening experience, both our way and his way in one set.

 

And, Holko, how can you talk about that terrible girl? The accompaniment is spectacular and her innocent voice suits the entire story so perfectly! Also, if you call HER terrible, what's We Don't Wanna Grow Up?

[Holko 10,006]

I can call We don't Wanna Grow Up singing if I stretch a bit.

[bollemanneke 3,529]

It's really embarassing to have.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,362]

I like it!