La-La Land Records' HOOK (2CD Expanded) Discussion thread

[indy4 155]

Why couldn't they get MM?

[Trent B 337]

Why couldn't they get MM?

I think because the project was done on the east coast and not the west coast where Mike Matessino, MV and LLL is.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

I wonder what this 'different ideology' is that Deustch has.

I can see the set was produced with the approach of expanding on the OST, rather than in session form, but I would put that down more to JW's involvement. (in the same way that Jurassic was modelled on the OST)

[crocodile 8,012]

This guy produced ID-4 as well, didn't he? With much better results.

Karol

[Jay 37,364]

No, ID4 was done by Mike Matessino.

 

I agree that Didier Deutsch was likely more willing to just do whatever JW wanted for this release, rather than a freelance producer like MM or somebody else who would have wanted the set to meet the same standards the current trend of complete score releases follow (pioneered by FSM and generally followed by LLL, Intrada, Kritzerland, Quartet, and Music Box today).

 

I think Sony just requested their employee Didier Deutsch produce the set and LLL had no choice, other than not releasing an expanded score at all. They made the right decision if you ask me! There is a ton of great never before heard music on this set, not to mention better quality versions of music we had in bootlegs or in the film itself. And we can supplement the LLL set with this "other" material to make the release pretty much complete.

The big shame is that JW (or whoever) didn't want the original song demos on the set! How cool would it be to hear all those??

[publicist 4,643]

The big shame is that the Ultimate War still doesn't sound right!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It sounds like pure shit. There are edits and volume level changes and most perplexing, they didn't even use the film version of Crossed Swords from the stems, which would have included the inserts. What the hell? That would have literally been the only advantage of having the film stems and they even screwed that up.

[Jay 37,364]

The point is that these kinds of criticisms (and praise!) should be directed at the album's producer (in this case Didier Deutch), not the head honchos of the label that released it.

The label did their part - pursued the license, got the license, hired John Takis, hired Jim Titus.... It's not their fault Sony had one of their in house producers design the listening program (with Williams).

[publicist 4,643]

I really find the rest totally acceptable - it's just a shame the centerpiece of the score from a film from 1991 can't be located. I mean who stores this stuff?? A Spielberg blockbuster with music by JW and they lose the big setpiece?

[Jay 37,364]

Yea that's really mind-boggling.

My theory has been that someone stole it (it being the session tapes containing the Ultimate War cues) many years ago. The basis for my theory is that those same cues are all missing on the old bootlegs.

I doubt we'll ever know what happened.

[crocodile 8,012]

No, ID4 was done by Mike Matessino.

I agree that Didier Deutsch was likely more willing to just do whatever JW wanted for this release, rather than a freelance producer like MM or somebody else who would have wanted the set to meet the same standards the current trend of complete score releases follow (pioneered by FSM and generally followed by LLL, Intrada, Kritzerland, Quartet, and Music Box today).

I think Sony just requested their employee Didier Deutsch produce the set and LLL had no choice, other than not releasing an expanded score at all. They made the right decision if you ask me! There is a ton of great never before heard music on this set, not to mention better quality versions of music we had in bootlegs or in the film itself. And we can supplement the LLL set with this "other" material to make the release pretty much complete.

It's fun for all you guys who like to create your own edits, I get that. I just happen to like playing albums as they are, that's why I buy them. Every now and then, I have slightly re-arranged alternate playlist on the iPod (like Batman Forever or The Matrix Reloaded), but that's about it.

Deutsch must have worked on something else as well. This name sounds familiar.

Karol

[Jay 37,364]

You'll find his name on a lot of releases licensed from Sony (like ID4)

[crocodile 8,012]

Oh yes, you're right. He co-produced ID4, but didn't assemble it. I remember now.

Karol

[rough cut 1,714]

It's fun for all you guys who like to create your own edits, I get that. I just happen to like playing albums as they are, that's why I buy them.

Oh wow. I think that's cool. You know, it's actually ages between the times I listen to a full, proper album in one sitting (much less a 2 cd set, like the LLL-release). If I were to choose one release of Hook to sit through going from A-Z, then the OST would be my choice as well. I'll concede that - compared as a whole to LLL - it does have a superior "flow" to it, more variety between tracks and overall better sound. However, that's just not how I consume music nowadays.

[DreamTheater 131]

Anyone interested in hearing my improvement done on The Ultimate War? IMHO how LLL should have released the track in the first place, no volume dips here. If you're interested, feel free to PM me.

In fact I fixed most of the issues that the release had. So the full 2 hour onslaught of that incredible Williams magic is now exactly to my liking. I'm never going to listen to the original CDs again. Regrettably !

[crocodile 8,012]

NVM.

Karol

[mahler3 478]

No, ID4 was done by Mike Matessino.

I agree that Didier Deutsch was likely more willing to just do whatever JW wanted for this release, rather than a freelance producer like MM or somebody else who would have wanted the set to meet the same standards the current trend of complete score releases follow (pioneered by FSM and generally followed by LLL, Intrada, Kritzerland, Quartet, and Music Box today).

I think Sony just requested their employee Didier Deutsch produce the set and LLL had no choice, other than not releasing an expanded score at all. They made the right decision if you ask me! There is a ton of great never before heard music on this set, not to mention better quality versions of music we had in bootlegs or in the film itself. And we can supplement the LLL set with this "other" material to make the release pretty much complete.

It's fun for all you guys who like to create your own edits, I get that. I just happen to like playing albums as they are, that's why I buy them. Every now and then, I have slightly re-arranged alternate playlist on the iPod (like Batman Forever or The Matrix Reloaded), but that's about it.

Deutsch must have worked on something else as well. This name sounds familiar.

Karol

He was involved in the Fiddler on the Roof expanded score release. He also wrote the liner notes for MCA's Filmworks album.

[crocodile 8,012]

Quote

LOW QUANTITY ALERT

Down to the last 20 units on PLANET OF THE APES (on sale now for $24.98)

Get them before they go extinct!

Also, down to the last 30 units on HOOK!

 

Karol

[Trent B 337]

It's taken Hook a while but glad to see it's nearly sold out.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Yeah, it's great for people down the track who missed out on the CD to look on the LLL site and find that big "SOLD OUT" sticker.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Derp derp derp is upon us!!!

[nightscape94 965]

It's a tricky emotional balance of wanting it to be successful but also constantly available.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'm not sure why titles NEED to "sell out"

nothing wrong with printing enough copies so that most of them sell out but some always remain in stock for those who can only get it later

[Wojo 2,453]

That practice could exceed the finite number of pieces that these labels are permitted to sell. These limited run soundtracks can't stay in print forever like they were Michael Jackson's Thriller.

In order for the label to print "enough copies so that most of them sell out but some always remain in stock for those who can only get it later," the label would most likely have to understate how many units they produced. Announce 2000 when they actually produce 2500 or 3000 Then when it "sells out," it never actually disappears from the website, or they periodically announce they found a few more ones in the warehouse, for years to come. Or you make a friend at each label and he hooks you up with a special copy. This is a small niche soundtrack market and word would get around if that happened, and if it did, nobody would ever buy an album. They'd wait for everybody else to make the album "sell out," then they'd try their magic at grabbing one of those last discounted "extra" albums.

I'm honestly surprised that none of the soundtrack labels has begun a subscription-based membership service. You buy a subscription to one of the labels at the beginning of the year, and you either automatically purchase everything that label releases that year, or they simply reserve one of every album released that year, giving you the right to pick and choose over the year without fear of hot titles disappearing overnight. That would be an enormous gamble because I feel stronger loyalty to my favorite artists and movies than to my favorite labels.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Kickstarter is the right way to go, not a subscription model.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Only the speculators shall buy. You snooze you lose!

[Trent B 337]

Only the speculators shall buy. You snooze you lose!

Yup. I'm glad I got my copy of Hook when it became available. Yes it has its flaws but hey it's better than the previous OST. More music equals better release.

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

I'm honestly surprised that none of the soundtrack labels has begun a subscription-based membership service. You buy a subscription to one of the labels at the beginning of the year, and you either automatically purchase everything that label releases that year, or they simply reserve one of every album released that year, giving you the right to pick and choose over the year without fear of hot titles disappearing overnight. That would be an enormous gamble because I feel stronger loyalty to my favorite artists and movies than to my favorite labels.

FSM had "Charter Member" subscriptions until 2006.

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=5&threadID=32638&archive=1

Folks, I was deferring to Screen Archives who have been spending way too much time dealing with charter members returning CDs, or sending emails saying I want this one but not that one. The whole point of the charter club was to make things simpler, not more complicated, which is unfortunate for the people here who seem to have used and appreciated the club in the manner in which it was intended. Anyway, I'll ask the folks at SAE to monitor this thread. I certainly am in favor of anything that increases sales!!

Lukas

Oh, and huzzah! I've finally almost won Jason's guessing game!

[Jay 37,364]

Oh yea! What CD do you want? Actually, I can't remember what I have in the pile. I'll get back to you when I get home

[filmmusic 1,829]

Didn't know where to post this.

just posted at JoAnn Kane facebook:

Trailer music

[RedBard 71]

Wait...

Where's the rest of it?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I have to say Williams' orchestrators really work.

That looks like a Doctor's handwritting!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Has Derp derp derp come and gone?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

So when do I get my free CD?

[Incanus 5,714]

When derp derp derp freezes over!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

When the cold of derp derp comes,
Starless night will cover day
In the veiling of the sun,
We will walk in bitter rain.

But in dreams,
I can hear derp derp derp.
And in dreams,
We will meet again.

When the seas and mountains fall
And we come to derp derp derp,
In the dark I hear a derp
Calling me there
I will go there
And derp again.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Brought a tear to my eye!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Oh be quiet.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Self expression doesnt seem to be one of your problems.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

Finally got a chance to listen to this release. I'm sure they did what they could, but all the same I think it's far from perfect. I'm 100% convinced all this has been posted before, but anyway...

 

1. Dear Mr Williams, please STOP that stupid unchronological presentation thing. It just doesn't make sense! Why can't Follow that Shadow be wher it's supposed to be? Why can't that great pirate male hcoir be wher eit's supposed to be? Narrative? What bothers me is that we all know the film and therefore we are accustomed to the film order. How many people listen to this score without having ever watched any part of the film? Why is it absolutely necessary to change these little things?

 

2. Also, why write great inserts if you deliberately remove them afterwards? The Never-Feast insert... There is just no excuse, that's the magical highlight of the banquet.

 

3. I read that JW thought Take me out to the ball game didn't add anything of value. So... How does 'we don't wanna grow up' add anything? Try explaining to 'grown-ups' what you're doing when that cue comes up... I failed there. Banning Back Home I can understand, but not WDWGU. 

 

4. Also, there are serious volume issues. The bulk of the material is too soft while the Ultimate War is too loud.

 

Nope, I'll just stick with my superior edit.

 

And excuse the morbid question, but is there a chance we'll get a more... proper release once Williams is no longer able to exclude cues? I'm guessing it would be a financial success and not legally difficult after this release.

[Bespin 8,482]

Unchronological presentation thing?

 

1. The movie is the movie.

 

2. The album is the album.

 

3. Read again from the start.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

He's right. This set was horribly produced. It's like some lost Varese Sarabande set from the year 2000 that was never released, not a La-La Land set from the 2010s. There are too many alternates, missing music, weird track order and end battle tracks obviously sourced from the film with fluctuating volume levels and edits. They bafflingly didn't use "The Ultimate War" from the album, but rather the edited film versions. Plus, the liner notes sucked. I don't know why you're all getting bent out of shape about missing teeth on the T-Rex. It could've been worse, John. A lot worse. It could've been Hook!

[Incanus 5,714]

14 minutes ago, Selina Kyle said:

He's right. This set was horribly produced. It's like some lost Varese Sarabande set from the year 2000 that was never released, not a La-La Land set from the 2010s. There are too many alternates, missing music, weird track order and end battle tracks obviously sourced from the film with fluctuating volume levels and edits. They bafflingly didn't use "The Ultimate War" from the album, but rather the edited film versions. Plus, the liner notes sucked. I don't know why you're all getting bent out of shape about missing teeth on the T-Rex. It could've been worse, John. A lot worse. It could've been Hook!

Major reason is that they after arduous search didn't find all the proper elements for this score. This is the reason for e.g. the film stem version of the Ultimate War. And Williams again made some "exciting" editing decisions regarding the release. But yes it is far from desired version for this score.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

The only real thing I find bothersome with that release are the film stems being used for the Ultimate War.

Would have preferred those inserts to be included as well, of course.

But the slightly unchronological order is a complete non-issue for me.

[Jay 37,364]

Really, these differences highlight the difference between Mike Matessino producing, and Didier Deutsch producing. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Diddler Douche.

[crumbs 14,316]

The Hook set has its issues but you can't really pin the Ultimate War situation on LLL, considering the tapes are missing. Though it is a little strange the film stems were their best available source -- it's hard to believe there were no second or third generation tape masters of the recording sessions.

 

With any luck, those tapes were just misplaced (and not stolen) and will turn up one day, then LLL can do the set properly with inserts and alternates.

 

It's interesting that different album producers get such different results from Williams, especially regarding inserts, microedits and chronological presentations. MM has a pretty flawless track record in this regard (with the occasional minor track order change, such as The Biker Chase in A.I.)

[Jay 37,364]

What's wrong with the biker chase in AI?

[crumbs 14,316]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

What's wrong with the biker chase in AI?

 

Nothing wrong with it, just an example of Williams requesting a minor change to the track order.

 

Quote

 

Did John Williams request any changes to a traditional chronological order in order to enhance the listening experience?

The only change John suggested was that the section of music from the original release that his son Joe composed be presented in it entirety as a bonus track. On the original album an excerpt of it appeared in the midst of a track called “The Moon Rising,” but that track itself was not assembled chronologically ... I’d initially assembled it as a 7-1/2-minute “extended version” of “The Moon Rising,” but this time around the feeling was to present John’s score only. Joseph’s piece was included because it was on the original album.

 

 

Was definitely the right decision, too.