Damien F 1,742 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 With the recent release of the Jurassic Park score, I decided to rewatch the trilogy. It has been a while since I've listened to TLW's OST from start to finish so I'd forgotten how crazy that microedit in Rescuing Sarah is. That heroic fanfare, the bells when the T-Rexes appear and the subsequent drama on the strings is arguably the best part of the whole cue.When producing an OST, I can understand excluding entire cues (not that I agree with it) but chopping up a cue to omit one minute or less is crazy especially when that omitted music contains some of the cue's best parts or any thematic material. That Rescuing Sarah microedit is especially puzzling because the moment at which the edit is made (2:12) isn't a natural edit point because the cut music flows very coherenty with the uncut music. It is a single coherent cue recorded as such (8m2).So, what do you think are the worst microedits JW has made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 That Rescuing Sarah microedit is especially puzzling because the moment at which the edit is made (2:12) isn't a natural edit point because the cut music flows very coherenty with the uncut music. It is a single coherent cue recorded as such (8m2)Sometimes it is a performance issue...as sound as the music itself may be, the horn players on recording day had some bad chili and it's good enough for the movie but not for the soundtrack album.As for bad edits, i always disliked the taken-out theatrics in DRACULA'S DEATH and the missing end credit insert in HPPOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 "Rescuing Sarah", I agree, is probably the worst microedit. "The Jungle Chase" is also a particularly heinous example. I almost never notice these cuts without hearing the full version in the film, but listening to "The Jungle Chase" the very first time, I just though, "what the fuck was that??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I'd say that is no microedit but a fullblown reconstruction. The 11 minutes of the jungle chase are a totally different ballgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 These aren't microedits. Microedits are very tiny edits, perhaps the removal of a beat, but not the removal of an entire section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Anakin's Dark Deeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 These aren't microedits. Microedits are very tiny edits, perhaps the removal of a beat, but not the removal of an entire section.We use the term microedit to cover the deletion of any portion of a cue, actually. When microediting doesn't apply is when an ENTIRE cue is not included in the middle of a run of other cues, such as Remembering Childhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 But why use that term if you are talking about the deletion of relatively large segments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Just the way it is my friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Wouldnt that be.. a macroedit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I didn't even know what a 'microedit' was untill I read this thread. Again another aspect of the 'individual cue' obsession I don't get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I didn't even know what a 'microedit' was untill I read this thread. Again another aspect of the 'individual cue' obsession I don't get.For a film score fan I have to honestly marvel your nonchalant and adult behaviour Thor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien F 1,742 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 I forgot about Jungle Chase, but as publicist said, it is more than just a microedit.It seems when he was thinking of microediting his cues, John Williams was so preoccupied with whether or not he could, he didn't stop to think if he should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I forgot about Jungle Chase, but as publicist said, it is more than just a microedit.It seems when he was thinking of microediting his cues, John Williams was so preoccupied with whether or not he could, he didn't stop to think if he should. Heh! Nice JP nod right there.It is mostly a matter of an artist seeing his own work in much different light than his fans do and of course the creators of this music having their own logic of how to present their own work to the public.As far as smaller edits go the Desert Chase from Raiders. I can't fathom what did the cue benefit from excising those 40 seconds from the complete track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 As far as smaller edits go the Desert Chase from Raiders. I can't fathom what did the cue benefit from excising those 40 seconds from the complete track."neeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh-BUM, BUM, BUMBUMBUMBUM, BUM BUM BUM....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Yea, the Desert Chase is probably the worst I guess.It's also a shame he didn't include the later-recorded Insert of the End Credits of Harry Potter 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien F 1,742 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 As far as smaller edits go the Desert Chase from Raiders. I can't fathom what did the cue benefit from excising those 40 seconds from the complete track."neeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh-BUM, BUM, BUMBUMBUMBUM, BUM BUM BUM....."I've been listening to the DCC release for about 15 years now so it's impossible for me to hear the 40 second shorter version without thinking the CD has skipped at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I grew up with the OST, but completely got used to the DCC (or actually Silva Screen) version.That edit feels wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellosh 3,419 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Desert Chase from the Concord release. Fuck that shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 You sound like Bloodboal, you tryin' to be competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score_Fan 36 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Anakin's Dark DeedsBy far one of the worst, it's not even just the fact that it was edited out, but the edit was so jarringly bad also. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan had some bad editing too, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delorean90 42 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I didn't even know what a 'microedit' was untill I read this thread. Again another aspect of the 'individual cue' obsession I don't get.Okay, forgive me, you all, but I'm gonna bite, if ever so briefly. Thor, the C&C debate has gone around and around, but in a couple of threads now you've been bringing up this "individual cue" obsession, so I just want to be sure: you do understand that people aren't asking for singles of these cues? Conversely, do not forget that all the great concept albums still break down into tracks, passages, moments. Some people just want it all, but a lot of people actually think that there are many of these single cues or microedited cues that would benefit their respective scores at least on the small scale, but often even in the large scale of the work as a whole. You surely disagree, and that's fine, but reading these comments almost makes it feel like none of the discussion over the years has even happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Anakin's Dark DeedsBy far one of the worst, it's not even just the fact that it was edited out, but the edit was so jarringly bad also. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan had some bad editing too,Well more because it leaves out the part of the cue that makes it outstanding. It's one of the most mind boggling microeditsI'll add another one. Cutting off the first 15 seconds of the Prisoner of Azcaban End Credits. I'm not sure if it was an insert added afterwards but it sure sucks it wasn't on the OST"Rescuing Siruis" is supposed to be part of the full PoA finale, and it was deleted off the OST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Anakin's Dark DeedsBy far one of the worst, it's not even just the fact that it was edited out, but the edit was so jarringly bad also. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan had some bad editing too,Oh this has to be one of the most disappointing microedits, JW omitting half of the earth shaking and beautifully dramatic crescendo of the cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I didn't even know what a 'microedit' was untill I read this thread. Again another aspect of the 'individual cue' obsession I don't get.Okay, forgive me, you all, but I'm gonna bite, if ever so briefly. Thor, the C&C debate has gone around and around, but in a couple of threads now you've been bringing up this "individual cue" obsession, so I just want to be sure: you do understand that people aren't asking for singles of these cues? Conversely, do not forget that all the great concept albums still break down into tracks, passages, moments. Some people just want it all, but a lot of people actually think that there are many of these single cues or microedited cues that would benefit their respective scores at least on the small scale, but often even in the large scale of the work as a whole. You surely disagree, and that's fine, but reading these comments almost makes it feel like none of the discussion over the years has even happened.When I listen to soundtracks, I press 'play' and let it play out from start to finish. I have no time or energy or interest for 'micromanaging' (or whatever it's called), or even pay attention to such things. I'm interested in great cues, of course, but only as 'highlights' within an overall concept or album structure. As PART of something bigger. Even on compilations. But I learned something new. I had heard the word before, but never properly understood what it was. To be fair, I'm not sure I entirely understand it now either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delorean90 42 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I understand that you're in it for the holistic experience more than anything else (correct me if I'm wrong), but it doesn't take an extravagant amount of extra attention to the music to recognize moments within it that you like. You say you're interested in great cues as highlights; well, highlights are exactly what people feel are missing when they point these cues out. "Rescuing Sarah" and "Anakin's Dark Deeds" are perfect examples, where the climactic material of both are either shortened or omitted entirely.The big picture may be the most important thing, but it would be nothing without its parts. Muad'Dib and Brónach 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I understand that you're in it for the holistic experience more than anything else (correct me if I'm wrong), but it doesn't take an extravagant amount of extra attention to the music to recognize moments within it that you like. You say you're interested in great cues as highlights; well, highlights are exactly what people feel are missing when they point these cues out. "Rescuing Sarah" and "Anakin's Dark Deeds" are perfect examples, where the climactic material of both are either shortened or omitted entirely.How would I know that from just listening to the album? Whenever I've listened to those pieces on the albums, I've never thought about anything missing. It flows beautifully to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uni 306 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 The specifics of the term are new to me, too. When I first read the title of the thread, I was just thinking of edits—transitional cuts, not necessarily excised material. If that were the case, I was going to nominate TPM for its sudden, unexplainable, wretched cuts from one section to another in a different key with no transition at all.As for the corrected (in my case) definition . . . I'm just as puzzled why a composer or music editor would remove a small section from a larger piece. It was composed as a single, flowing entity; it was performed to play along with a dramatic thread that had a flow of its own; what purpose does it serve to yank out bits and pieces—especially when they're really moving and powerful bits and pieces?- Uni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Well, I'm still wondering if Williams is responsible for some micro edits (such as in Anakin's Dark Deeds), or if it's album editors that take liberties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I also dislike the one in The Colonial Cause from The Patriot where the two cues are merged since that wonderful ending to the first part is lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 How would I know that from just listening to the album?Because you (should) hear a "skip" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delorean90 42 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 "Desert Chase" is a good example of that kind of poorly executed edit, but a number of them (especially more recent) are very smoothly executed. Thor, I wouldn't expect you to notice necessarily by listening to just the album; this is kind of my point, though. I think you understand the concept now, even if you disagree: people see a film and hear the original score, and they like it. Some of the music that they really like is not there. They want to be able to listen to it.In this specific case, we are talking not about the simple omission of a cue, but about music that was actually edited out of a whole cue for the CD, thereby actively changing the cue, and (in the opinions of those favoring the omitted passage's inclusion) rendering it inferior in some way to its full original form. I could've sworn that in the past you'd even said you weren't in favor of that; that you were thinking of soundtrack production in terms of selection and sequencing of cues, not cutting them up. It seemed odd that you were characterizing all of this as some kind of "individual cue obsession" when it's simply a subset of the same old issue that it's always been: the desire for a full(er) representation of the score as composed and recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 How would I know that from just listening to the album?Because you (should) hear a "skip"Hmm, OK. Never heard such a 'skip', to be honest. Maybe someone could give me some timeframe inside a track like that, so that I could pay particular attention to it?"Desert Chase" is a good example of that kind of poorly executed edit, but a number of them (especially more recent) are very smoothly executed. Thor, I wouldn't expect you to notice necessarily by listening to just the album; this is kind of my point, though. I think you understand the concept now, even if you disagree: people see a film and hear the original score, and they like it. Some of the music that they really like is not there. They want to be able to listen to it.In this specific case, we are talking not about the simple omission of a cue, but about music that was actually edited out of a whole cue for the CD, thereby actively changing the cue, and (in the opinions of those favoring the omitted passage's inclusion) rendering it inferior in some way to its full original form. I could've sworn that in the past you'd even said you weren't in favor of that; that you were thinking of soundtrack production in terms of selection and sequencing of cues, not cutting them up. It seemed odd that you were characterizing all of this as some kind of "individual cue obsession" when it's simply a subset of the same old issue that it's always been: the desire for a full(er) representation of the score as composed and recorded.Ah, now I understand. You're using the FILM as a frame of reference. I've never done that. I think that if the segue from the socalled 'abridged' track to the next track is made smoothly enough, with its own musical justification, that's all that matters to me.If they had suddenly faded down the track in the middle of a climax or something, I agree that it would probably have sounded weird and disruptive in the overall listening experience, but it's not often you hear that. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Kamen's ROBIN HOOD. So if that is a form of micro-editing; I guess that's my example. It's more like regular album editing, though, not MICRO-editing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I admit I do use the film as a frame of reference, but not in its released (or escaped, as George Lucas might say) form, but in its original "composed to" form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delorean90 42 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I thought it was pretty obvious that's what everyone was talking about, Thor. That's what I've been going on about this whole damn time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4JYkj0CIDw&t=4m50s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 its at about 4:43 and 4:50 BTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 its at 4:43 and 4:50 BTW No, the cuts in the video posted are at 4:45 and 4:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 its at 4:43 and 4:50 BTW No, the cuts in the video posted are at 4:45 and 4:57My timestamps are always just a few seconds short, so you do not miss them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 "Rescuing Siruis" is supposed to be part of the full PoA finale, and it was deleted off the OSTThat climatic moment alone made me obssesed with listening to the score... and it wasn't on the album. Classic realization moment. I went "what the hell? why does this happen?". Such a gorgeous highlight cut out for no reason. It's particularly glaring because in these final cues several ideas are brought back again flowing into each other as a sort of conclusion, taking parts out ramdomly ruins the effect and it doesn't sound like a full musical narrative anymore. But that's a cue omision rather than a microedit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I still boggles the mind how Williams wouldn't think that cue was OST worthy! I just can't fathom. And we still can't hear it without wind effects and Hermione screaming to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 The scream almost feels like part of the cue to me, at this point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Haha, same with me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 its at 4:43 and 4:50 BTW No, the cuts in the video posted are at 4:45 and 4:57the second one is soooooooooo bad. You can hear the echo of the cut segment instruments.I just cant believe Williams prefers that over the full cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 It's baffling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,742 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 That's almost worse than the disc's pitch issues. Almost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,534 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 "Three Million Miles From Earth", as the film cuts back from inside the ship, to outside. Terrible."Adventures On Earth" (the "goodbye" scene) is also a pointless micro-edit.Not a micro-edit, but on "The Battle For Endor", as the music slows and grows quieter, from Han planting charges to Vader stalkng Luke, you can hear the tape hiss get quieter, as one as one machine stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 John Williams just likes pissing off his fans when they go see a movie he's scored, like certain parts and buy the album only to find that the parts they liked from the film are missing. He knows he's written kick-arse music that's too good to be released to the general public. Or he probably thinks the great bits he cuts out are so memorable, they don't need to be on the album, which in his mind should showcase all the boring bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 Does Williams request all these edits? I mean does 'album produced by' really mean that he selects the exact cues he wants, how to combine them, and instructs on any edits/removals?Sounds like that was the process for the Jurassic expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I'm amazed he allows any new music at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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