The Force Awakens London or Los Angeles for Star Wars VII score? [UPDATE: It's Los Angeles]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That was real! All real, I tells ya!

But yes, to paraphrase Al Michaels, "That was a totally farcical post. Lest anyone think that was somebody who truly expects Star Wars to take on a radically different musical identity."

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

To be fair, you'd be surprised at the amount of atonal (for KM, read: boring) underscore there is in the SW films, and both minimalist and Far Eastern influences started to creep into AOTC and ROTS.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Indeed. Takemitsu is rather a large presence in these scores, as it turns out. A serious hope I have on the subject is that there are perhaps more than the usual amount of moments that call for that sort of material.

[Quintus 5,399]

To be fair, you'd be surprised at the amount of atonal (for KM, read: boring) underscore there is in the SW films

Most of which was thrown out after Star Wars. Which is why the original is still the best for my own money.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lee are you ok?

[King Mark 3,631]

To be fair, you'd be surprised at the amount of atonal (for KM, read: boring) underscore there is in the SW films

Most of which was thrown out after Star Wars. Which is why the original is still the best for my own money.

I like all the SW underscore even the Prequels, actually

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

To be fair, you'd be surprised at the amount of atonal (for KM, read: boring) underscore there is in the SW films

Most of which was thrown out after Star Wars.

Nope, most of it's still there.

[Faleel 5,404]

To be fair, you'd be surprised at the amount of atonal (for KM, read: boring) underscore there is in the SW films

Most of which was thrown out after Star Wars.

Nope, most of it's still there.

I think he means:

"all of it is in the sequel scores, not the first score."

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

To be fair, you'd be surprised at the amount of atonal (for KM, read: boring) underscore there is in the SW films

Most of which was thrown out after Star Wars.

Nope, most of it's still there.

I think he means:

"all of it is in the sequel scores, not the first score."

That's true, and probably why I prefer each sequel score to the previous, culminating in ROTJ. JW lost his creative shackles after the success of the original.

[Quintus 5,399]

I disagree that what came after Star Wars (in the saga) was more atonal and less bombastically harmonic (narrative wise).

Star Wars was the experimental opera before the assured sweeping symphony of Empire Strikes Back and later entries. Sure there are 'off-beat' moments here and there, but never once do we hear in subsequent movies the sort of spartan instrumentation found in say the scenes featuring Artoo and 3PO on the mechanical sands of Tatooine in the original movie. The orchestral aesthetic evolved after that and the contrast in sound between sequels would never be as pronounced as it was between Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.

[Jay 37,474]

the contrast in sound between sequels would never be as pronounced as it was between Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.

Absolutely true.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I disagree that what came after Star Wars (in the saga) was more atonal and less bombastically harmonic (narrative wise).

There's nothing in SW as atonal or avant-garde (relatively modern) as The Magic Tree, the Wampa lair section of Luke's Escape, Han Solo Returns, Father and Son or The Emperor's Throne Room, to name a few cues. Attack of the Sand People and that short stinger for Leia's torture droid arguably come the closest, but my point still stands. With the darker themes and more mature direction of ESB, Williams was able to explore textures and sonorities that were simply too frightening for SW - a film that was approached as a Saturday matinee kid's picture.

What you're picking up on is the more abrasive orchestration and sparser spotting, but the kind of dissonances there are milder. Early rather than mid 20th century.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

SW is Stravinsky level "atonal." After that things became more Schoenberg (just as a general figure) "atonal."

[Quintus 5,399]

I disagree that what came after Star Wars (in the saga) was more atonal and less bombastically harmonic (narrative wise).

There's nothing in SW as atonal or avant-garde (relatively modern) as The Magic Tree, the Wampa lair section of Luke's Escape, Han Solo Returns, Father and Son or The Emperor's Throne Room, to name a few cues. Attack of the Sand People and that short stinger for Leia's torture droid arguably come the closest, but my point still stands. With the darker themes and more mature direction of ESB, Williams was able to explore textures and sonorities that were simply too frightening for SW - a film that was approached as a Saturday matinee kid's picture.

What you're picking up on is the more abrasive orchestration and sparser spotting, but the kind of dissonances there are milder. Early rather than mid 20th century.

I knew you'd cite The Magic Tree. I think we're speaking at cross purposes here, which is probably my fault. I'm coming from a stylistic angle; for me, Star Wars has a certain subtlety in its atonal moments which is much less present in later entries. The Magic Tree for example, while being distinctly discordant, is still a very rich and polished cue - it has an aesthetic which makes it sit comfortably within its wider harmonic surroundings. The timbre is a very highly produced one, if you understand me. It is atonal bombast - compared to the likes of Mouse Robot or The Tractor Beam, which are much less 'showy' compositions, and to me much more interesting stylistically and acoustically.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What parts of Star Wars are atonal?

[Quintus 5,399]

The Tractor Beam was one of my examples. When Ben is disabling it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's non melodic, but does it qualify as atonal?

[A24 4,363]

Star Wars non-melodic? This will come as a surprise to Star Wars shower singer KM!

[Quintus 5,399]

It's non melodic, but does it qualify as atonal?

I see what you're saying, but there are certainly parts which I'd say are dissonant.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Do our musically learned members agree?

[TownerFan 4,991]

Atonal means the piece/composition lacks a tonal key or tonal center (like C Major or D minor or whatever) and moves freely in terms of tonality across the whole chromatic scale (i.e. the whole 12 notes). The result to the untrained ear can be of a piece of music that moves forward without a clear direction, leading then to unexpected turns in terms of melodic or harmonic content.

Dissonance is another thing completely and it relates more to how our ears and brain perceive the sound. It deals more with the contrast and the dichotomy of what we perceive as pleasant vs. unpleasant, or sweet vs. harsh. While in physics and acoustic science the difference between consonance and dissonance can be dealt in more objective terms, in music the line is much more blurred and goes much more toward the individual's perception.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So which can be heard in Star Wars?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Both.

[TownerFan 4,991]

There are examples of both atonalism and dissonance all throughout the six scores, even though Williams imho doesn't stress too much any of these. Most of the music in Star Wars is written in tonal clear fashion, even though there are many moments in which Williams goes more toward politonality (like Anakin's theme), giving to the music a more distinct personality.

[Quintus 5,399]

Cheers for chiming in with the info, TownerFan, it's interesting.

Anyway, Barry's Kidnapping > The Magic Tree

[crocodile 8,048]

So which can be heard in Star Wars?

The best example of dissonance I can give in a Star Wars score would be the entire eerie string writing leading up to Vader's reveal in The Empire Strikes Back (and after him cutting off Luke's hand).

Karol

[KK 3,307]

Atonality can be heard all throughout the six SW scores. The OT, especially after the first score (which is the most traditional, in the Korngoldian/Golden Age sense of the bunch). There are plenty of wonderful avant-garde moments in ESB and ROTJ, but as Lee mentions, done in a more subtle fashion to create supporting atmosphere or other varying textures, the flashy melodies are still at the centre of the whole thing.

And it seems what Lee was referring to as "atonal", correct me if I'm wrong, was the more aggressive nature of it, where sometimes those modern elements take the centre stage over the more traditional melodicism. There is a certain lack of focus, or a core element that ties it all together in the later prequel scores, so you end up with wonderful vignettes in the work, but only loosely tied together by "transitional" material that doesn't sound like it was exactly written with Williams full heart into it.

With the OT, Williams struck a nice balance between the modern and the traditional, so much so that guys like KM get to have all the fun they want with their fanfares and themes while others like Sharky can enjoy the more fascinating textural elements Williams employs throughout the underscore.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I knew you'd cite The Magic Tree. I think we're speaking at cross purposes here, which is probably my fault. I'm coming from a stylistic angle; for me, Star Wars has a certain subtlety in its atonal moments which is much less present in later entries. The Magic Tree for example, while being distinctly discordant, is still a very rich and polished cue - it has an aesthetic which makes it sit comfortably within its wider harmonic surroundings. The timbre is a very highly produced one, if you understand me. It is atonal bombast - compared to the likes of Mouse Robot or The Tractor Beam, which are much less 'showy' compositions, and to me much more interesting stylistically and acoustically.

I think I get what you mean now.

You could draw a comparison to the atonal moments in both JAWS and JAWS II. The former has a dryer aesthetic, less doublings (instruments playing the same line, thickening it), a smaller orchestra, and almost no electronics. The later is wetter, has more doublings, a larger orchestra and more electronics. A watercolour vs. an oil painting.

So which can be heard in Star Wars?

The Dune Sea of Tatooine, 1:45-2:00 in Landspeeder Search/Attack of the Sand People, 0:47 in Tales of a Jedi Knight, 0:00-29 in The Millennium Falcon/Imperial Cruiser Pursuit and the Death Star Motif are all polytonal

0:38-1:17, 1:28-1:45 and 2:09-12 in Landspeeder Search/Attack of the Sand People, 2:16 in Burning Homestead, 1:06 and 1:30 in Mos Eisley Spaceport are atonal.

3:35 in The Millennium Falcon/Imperial Cruiser Pursuit is somewhat both.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Shit, did I just kill this thread?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Murderer!

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Now you know how it feels.

[Romão 2,276]

I really love this sort of discussion, I just can't keep up due to a lack of chops

[nightscape94 965]

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

SW is rough and course and it gets everywhere.

TESB is smooth and spherical.

[Balahkay 627]

So, with the news of Williams not scoring Bridge of Spies for various reasons, I guess this means Williams will conduct a Los Angeles based orchestra and isn't up to conduct in London with the LSO, if that option was ever really on the table. I guess the only way would be for the LSO to come to Williams.

[Jay 37,474]

He hasn't left the USA since 2005 I am surprised anyone really thought he was suddenly going to now

Would be awesome if he could conduct it through Skype, though

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I doubt he would feel comfortable doing that.

[Jay 37,474]

Oh, definitely

[ins 42]

Because I now read the skype suggestion several times here and maybe an experienced musician can tell me: is it even possible to conduct remotely? Imagine the signal would exactly travel with c, the orchestra would need to be recorded and mixed and then everything needs to go back. The time delay should make it impossible to have the fine-grained control required for such a task. Am I wrong?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It's very possible and happens frequently.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,489]

I'm expecting an announcement any day now that Episode VII will be conducted and adapted by William Ross.

[Faleel 5,404]

Miklos Rozsa actually listened to his score over Telephone once.

[Not Mr. Big 4,652]

I'm expecting an announcement any day now that Episode VII will be conducted and adapted by William Ross.

I've been fearing that too. TFA is mentioned on the Dreamworks press release but that doesn't really guarantee anything. I just hope that Ford A. Thaxton's claim that Williams has already completed three reels (surely more by now) is true. The disappointment of even partially losing TFA after Bridge of Spies would be overwhelming.

And to be more on topic; upon revisiting KOTCS, the performance was actually pretty good. I still believe that the trumpet section sounds anemic but the rest of the orchestra does a really good job, especially with the rambunctious Mutt material.

[aj_vader 535]

The LSO have just put a photo of them in California. So they are no strangers to that part of the US. So it's likely they'll be flown over for the recordings?

[TownerFan 4,991]

The LSO have just put a photo of them in California. So they are no strangers to that part of the US. So it's likely they'll be flown over for the recordings?

The LSO is doing a concert tour all across the US at the moment, I don't think there's time to fly them over again for a bulk of sessions. If they will end up performing Ep7, I guess the recording will be made in London.

[nightscape94 965]

I doubt he would feel comfortable doing that.

Oh, definitely

He'd probably think that weird ocular device on that computing gizmo was stealing his soul.

[King Mark 3,631]

In light of recent events, ,I just want Williams to record it period...don't care where

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Kill one of them. I don't care which.

[Wojo 2,453]

Then you can take their place?

[crumbs 14,364]

Wouldn't there be union issues flying over an orchestra from London to record in LA? Just thinking out loud.