Jim Ware 526 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Stefancos said: The film version of the FOTR opening is fine, but it's mostly feels like it was stitched together from bits and pieces of the score shortly before the release of the film because PJ had redone the opening yet again. That's more or less what it is. The full score for the revised Prologue indicates where sections are copied from elsewhere in the score. It was the last item recorded for Fellowship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Before the EE recordings, you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,358 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 19 hours ago, Holko said: OK, what I meant by that is the opening section is mostly unconnected one-off material that never returns. It's a setpiece for the Ring's journey from it's creation to its acquisition by Gollum...https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HAv5XyCrItTdf0XOtXvU_VqxingZiORZ Also, the bit you mention here: 19 hours ago, Holko said: the buildup in the middle that comes back to underscore the Nazguls' entrance to the Siege of Gondor. Is actually a variation of the same intervals, Compare: 0:21-0:37 (E E F, F E D) of The Prophecy to 1:27-1:38 (A A Bb, A A G), Really the whole thing is kind of based in the Mordor/Ring sound realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,358 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 15 hours ago, Stefancos said: Especially since that has errors like using the Ringwraith theme for Sauron. The full unedited cue does as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Which is not on the OST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Falafel said: It's a setpiece for the Ring's journey from it's creation to its acquisition by Gollum... OK, then what I can say is for a score of this scale (either 3-hour beast or 10-hour opera), I prefer the very first thing the listener hears and tries to focus on to not be a motif that is abandoned after 6 minutes, but (if you count it until the middle of The Shire), an 8-minute overture that introduces most of the major themes in the score. My phone playlist version even has the Gondor, Second Age statement from the Rarities edited in between the Ringwraiths and Footsteps of Doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,358 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 51 minutes ago, Holko said: to not be a motif that is abandoned after 6 minutes. But it's not, its developed into the Mordor/Ring music, hence the almost History of the Ring statement at 0:59 (Or hey, just imagine it as a second age theme, which is why it does not appear later ) Also, what we have of the full cue introduces at least 7 of the themes from later in the scores: Power of Mordor/Ring Journey Gondor Second Age Footsteps of Doom Descending Thirds Reclamation of the Ringwraiths Pity of Gollum Nameless Fear The Shire (Pensive Setting?) Vs. the revised version's 10: Lothlorien (Too early IMHO) History of the Ring Mordor Skip-beat (It's not really a major theme though, more of a motif/accompaniment figure/whatever) Descending Thirds Reclamation of the Ringwraiths Sauron/Evil of the Ring Footsteps of Doom Fall of Men Weakness and Redemption (See Skip-Beat note) Pity of Gollum Nameless Fear 51 minutes ago, Holko said: an 8-minute overture that introduces most of the major themes in the score. Not all overture's do this, for example The Ten Commandments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 I prefer the film version.... Admittedly only because I watched the film 100 times between the ages of 14 and 18 so it's just... how the opening of the score/film should sound to me. Bilbo and Smaug The Iron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 It's iconic... maybe partly because I've seen a ton of redubbed parodies of it hundreds of times before I ever saw the movie. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 In a perfect world, the CR releases would be more like specialty label releases. Box sets that include the full score presentations, the OSTs, and alternates/rarities for each film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Two more discs instead of the bluray audio! Or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,370 Posted August 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2018 59 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: In a perfect world, the CR releases would be more like specialty label releases. Box sets that include the full score presentations, the OSTs, and alternates/rarities for each film. YES YES YES YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!!!!!! Give these wonderful scores the Matessino treatment! The Illustrious Jerry, Bilbo, Smaug The Iron and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 As much as I'm esctatic for these reissues, they did shatter any hopes of those coming in the next 10-20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 But what version of these scores would or should they contain? The film version? But what edit? Or something closer to what Shore intended? But then what version of that? Is there even something like a definitive version of these scores? Personally I would buy these again if the music was personally selected by Shore to represent his visions of these films, but with the music not strictly following either cut. The CR's do this to an extent, but still.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,080 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 As long as they're on Spotify, I'm fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 I consider the CR's in the same way as I consider the Star Wars 1997 SE releases from RCA Victor. Not flawless, but very solid, and hard to beat. Nick1Ø66 and Holko 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 The CRs problems range from nitpicks to confusing intents. They're very good releases. The SEs problems include misplaced inserts, using old mixes, messing up transitions and making the music bloody unlistenable in quality. They were OK for the time apart from Jedi, but suffer from a significant lack of proper shitgiving. They're VERY inconsistent at best. STAR WARS is the only one of the 3 that has any chance of being in the same ballpark as the CRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 On 8/13/2018 at 4:46 PM, Stefancos said: The film version of the FOTR opening is fine, but it's mostly feels like it was stitched together from bits and pieces of the score shortly before the release of the film because PJ had redone the opening yet again. While I do love the Prophecy I have a special fondness for the thematic overture that is the film version of the prologue no matter how late in the game it was composed. That title card appearing to the tune of the History of the Ring theme is just captures the myth and magic of Tolkien's whole work to perfection. Smaug The Iron and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Oh its outstanding as film music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 NP: ROTK CR So...much... awesome...music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,080 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Stefancos said: NP: ROTK CR So...much... Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 11:23 PM, Jay said: YES YES YES YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!!!!!! Give these wonderful scores the Matessino treatment! No, no, no! How many bloody versions do we need to buy? How long did those who missed out on the CR's have to wait for them to be re-released? Perhaps they could release 2 disc sets of the originals/alternates for each score as a companion to the CR's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I like the theme when Frodo throws away the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I like the LOTR Theme! mstrox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Oh please, let’s do have another debate over what the “general public” considers the main theme of LOTR to be. That was so fun. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,718 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 But the LOTR theme is my favourite song from that album! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 9 hours ago, Arpy said: Perhaps they could release 2 disc sets of the originals/alternates for each score as a companion to the CR's? I was about to say that TRA could've satisfied this with the right approach (i.e. not with a listening experience in mind) but actually something Doug said a while back would then apply, which is that for these scores there are so many more alternates, inserts etc than for others, that choosing the ones to include would be tricky. You could never say it was a definitive release. But then to read that some major alternates were left off simply because they didn't fit whatever flow they were going for, is the problem for me. On one hand, this is a mass market product, and you're trying to give them something to listen to. But on the other hand, some of these alternates are so subtle in how they differ that if you're going to include them, then the alternate BotF for example, damn well should be there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,358 Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 If FOTR hadn't included film edits, it also would have helped with space, seeing as you would only need the theatrical version section of Out from Bree, and Fighting Uruk-Hai track would not be on there (since it is only there because it was edited out of the CR track) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 So, the Cannes presentation contained Moria and assorted bits, Moria was recorded with the NZSO and that stayed final. But which tracks exactly are NZSO? Khazad-Dúm is, with the Kiwi grunters and Mabel Faletolu, Balin's Tomb, too, and Doors of Durin is LPO, but Moria and Gollum(?) have EE material. Did the Theatrical trim the Cannes cut and the EE only restored it, or did Shore have to record LPO inserts for the Mithril ore and such in the now longer cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,080 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 8/18/2018 at 6:28 PM, Nick1066 said: But the LOTR theme is my favourite song from that album! Sing it to us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,718 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: Sing it to us! A pithy "comeback" two months later! Ladies and Gentlemen...Jurassic Shark. He's here all week month year never leaving. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,080 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I'm waiting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,718 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I'm waiting! Hey, today it's exactly one year since you joined us here! How do you find our little band of merry makers? How do you reflect on your first year? 4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I'm waiting! Ask me again this time next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,080 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, Nick1066 said: How do you find our little band of merry makers? How do you reflect on your first year? Looking back at everything I accomplished in my life until I joined, I'm glad I didn't join earlier! Bilbo and Nick1Ø66 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 You’re only here a year? Feel like it’s been forever Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,080 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 The feeling is mutual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 hours ago, Holko said: Did the Theatrical trim the Cannes cut and the EE only restored it, or did Shore have to record LPO inserts for the Mithril ore and such in the now longer cut? Paging @Doug Adams and @Jim Ware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Adams 494 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 The LPO recorded inserts. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,358 Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 I heard this was not the case....? 16 hours ago, Holko said: Gollum(?) have EE material. Some of the Gollum EE material is on the OST, so I think that was just edited out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Adams 494 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 14 hours ago, Falafel said: I heard this was not the case....? Some of the Gollum EE material is on the OST, so I think that was just edited out Apologies, I misunderstood. No inserts were recorded in London for Moria. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Was the Watcher in the Water battle outside Moria NZSO or LPO? I assume the first cue inside after the battle, when Gandalf lights his staff up, begins the NZSO material. Did NZSO record all the way through all the choir music after Gandalf dies and they make their way outside and lament his death? Or did LPO record that final bit? Obviously all of Lotherien and forward is completely LPO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 If only we had the Cannes presentation as a bonus feature on one of the film releases... Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, Holko said: If only we had the Cannes presentation as a bonus feature on one of the film releases... I can’t understand why it was never released! It seems like an obvious inclusion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 It would be SO awesome to see that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Something for the 20th anniversary 1800$ boxset with a gold-plated wooden shelf. mstrox and Bilbo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Gilraen's Memorial LPO (EE Cue) Bilbo's Gifts LPO The Departure of the Fellowship LPO (EE Cue) The Ring Goes South LPO (EE Extension) Hobbit Duel LPO (EE "Extension" was just edited out of the TE) Crebain Spies LPO To Caradhras LPO A Strange Fate LPO Into the Caverns LPO The Pass of Caradhras LPO The Ring-Bearer LPO The Walls of Moria LPO (EE Extension) The Doors of Durin LPO (EE Extension) Speak Friend and Enter LPO Into The Mines LPO The Watcher LPO A Journey In The Dark NZSO (EE "extension" was just edited out of TE) Gollum NZSO (EE "extension" was just edited out of TE) Fate Of Many NZSO Dwarrowdelf NZSO Balin's Tomb NZSO Orc Attack NZSO The Cave Troll NZSO Mithril! NZSO The Second Hall NZSO The Bridge of Khazad-Dum NZSO The Balrog NZSO Gandalf's Demise NZSO or LPO? Elegy For Gandalf NZSO or LPO? Lothlorien LPO (EE Extension) EDIT: Just found this relevant conversation: On 1/29/2018 at 7:58 AM, Chen G. said: As far as I know, all of the New Zealand recording was made for the Cannes presentation, which featured the full Moria sequence (without the Extended Edition inserts) with the associated composition On 1/29/2018 at 8:25 AM, Falafel said: Recently Doug/Jim Ware seemed to insinuate that the Moria EE music were not inserts, but edits in the TE. On 1/29/2018 at 8:47 AM, Chen G. said: But as we all know, some of it wasn't even recorded at the time, and only done by the London Philharmonic after the fact and woven into the New Zealand material. On 1/29/2018 at 9:37 AM, Jim Ware said: All of the Moria composition (including the material that would later end up in the Extended Edition) was recorded by the NZSO in April 2001. All evidence points to the Extended Edition footage being included in the Cannes preview. On 1/29/2018 at 10:48 AM, Smaug the iron said: So the NZSO recorded everything from the Doors of Durin, Moria, Gollum, Balin’s Tomb and Khazad-dûm? On 1/29/2018 at 10:55 AM, Jim Ware said: Everything from the entry to the mines through to the end of Mabel Faletolu's solo. Ten 'cues' if you want to call them that (Moria, Gollum, Dwarrowdelf, Balin's Tomb, Orc Attack, Cave Troll, Mithril Vest, The Second Hall, Khazad-Dûm, Balrog). On the CR, The Doors of Durin and the tail end of Khazad-Dûm (where the orchestra takes up the melody of Faletolu's solu) were recorded with the LPO. On 1/29/2018 at 10:58 AM, Jay said: So you're saying the Cannes preview didn't show them outside working on the door, nor them being chased inside by the Watcher in the Water, it began with the scene of Gandalf lighting his staff? On 1/29/2018 at 11:02 AM, Jim Ware said: Yes. Although I've not seen it, there are a number of eyewitness reports out there: http://www.theonering.com/news/the-lord-of-the-rings-movies/spoilers-cannes-day-two-lord-of-the-rings-footage-recap-oh-man-an-in-depth-review It looks like it didn't include the whole balrog sequence or the final escape from the mines. On 1/29/2018 at 11:04 AM, Jay said: What do you mean, no Balrog? You just said the Balrog music was recorded by the NZO On 1/29/2018 at 11:08 AM, Jim Ware said: The score was all recorded in April 2001, but the footage (and the music) was not all included in the Cannes preview, which cuts off at Gandalf's line 'you shall not pass'. On 1/29/2018 at 11:25 AM, Jim Ware said: Re-reading all of the eyewitness accounts, it looks like the sequence showing Gollum (and the subsequent conversation between Gandalf and Frodo) wasn't in there either. So basically "The Watcher" is definitely LPO, and both "Gandalf's Demise" and "Elegy For Gandalf" are LPO, it seems. Jim Ware 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The solo performer for Gandalf's fall is Mabel Faletolu, and the CR booklet says she was part of the NZ recordings. It also mentions the London Philharmonic under the Watcher, explaining aleatoric. Jim Ware 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Ah OK, so then "Gandalf's Demise" is NZSO, and "Elegy For Gandalf" is LPO, then Jim Ware 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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