The Last Jedi SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

[crocodile 8,808]

40 minutes ago, Quintus said:

While watching, I'd initially assumed Dern's character was being lined up to take over from Leia come the time, and that she would possibly feature quite significantly in part 3. Otherwise, what was the point of introducing this character and famed actress? Turns out there really was no point at all.

She was important for Poe to learn an important lesson about leadership. Seems like most characters receive character arcs rather than plot arcs. And, interestingly enough, all of them are a variation on a failure theme.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 4,805]

Oh sure, my gripe isn't with Poe's arc. In fact, I don't think I have any complaint as the arcs of the characters. 

[Quintus 5,522]

43 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

In Rian Johnson's head, there is an obvious reason: to surprise the audience! And he milks a series of surprises out of it: 

1. Turning her from antagonistic to Poe to being the character that performs the most heroic act of the film.
2. Allowing for the surprise of Poe's mutiny attempt.
3. On a meta level, to play with the audience's assumption that she will replace Leia.
4. Again in a meta level, to play with the convention that the authority figure who acts like a jerk is the bad guy, and the young can-do contrarian is the good guy.

 

These are solid observations actually. On paper these basic plot subversions are perfectly sound ideas for something as archetypically rigid as a Star Wars storyline, but in effect the nuts and bolts that are supposed to make these beats slot into place in a way which feels smooth and satisfying are all mangled and uneven. As a result the intended emotional impact of these mechanisms completely fails to connect, there is no resonance for the audience to really care about beyond the on-screen moment itself. It's all surface.

[Chen G. 4,805]

There are just too many of these subversions, and quite a few of them are packed together. The midpoint is where you'd normally have somekind of twist, and at the midpoint of this film we have Snoke's death, and the reveal involving Holdo's motives, and all of this hot off of the heels of the reveal of what went down between Luke and Kylo. And once the midpoint action setpiece is over, we dive into the third act and we have yet another plot subversion with Luke's astral projection.

 

Its just too much.

[1977 1,746]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

There are just too many of these subversions, and quite a few of them are packed together. The midpoint is where you'd normally have somekind of twist, and at the midpoint of this film we have Snoke's death, and the reveal involving Holdo's motives, and all of this hot off of the heels of the reveal of what went down between Luke and Kylo. And once the midpoint action setpiece is over, we dive into the third act and we have yet another plot subversion with Luke's astral projection.

 

Its just too much.

 

Tellingly, Snoke's death felt like something that was taking place well into the third act, that's how over-long this film felt to me.

[Balahkay 629]

That's one problem with the films taking place 30-40 years after we last saw the original gang characters... so much to catch up on but not enough time to present it all.  Too bad the supposed original ST George had in mind didn't pan out because it may have been done in the late 80s/early 90s and may have filled the gap.

[Chen G. 4,805]

His original idea for nine films was basically to stretch the plot of the first three films over six entries, which I for one don't think would have been a good idea. By making Return of the Jedi the way it is, he effectively abandoned the idea of a sequel trilogy.

[Ollie 1,222]

It seems these film, TFA included, are big on including celebrity cameos. That’s all I think of Del Toro’s appearance, there was really no need for his character.

 

We’ve had Michael Giacchino, Simon Pegg, James Bond, England’s monarchy, Tom Hardy and Jennifer Anniston’s Husband to name a few. 

 

I’m surprised Bryan Cranston didn’t pop up.

[TheUlyssesian 2,590]

Just a personal preference for me - but any "REVEAL" that happens 3-4 minutes after the setup is worthless. Basically you delayed the flow of information by 3-4 minutes? What did that achieve? I find it worthless.

 

So Luke's BIG REVEAL happens basically 3-4 minutes after he appears on Crate. That's just banal to me - the equivalent of a cheap thrill.

 

But that's just me.

[mstrox 7,012]

Did anybody actually watch the Luke scene at the end and not think "something is weird about this?"  His dark brown, neatly cropped beard?  It wasn't much of a surprise to me when "the big reveal" happened.

 

 

[Balahkay 629]

36 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

His original idea for nine films was basically to stretch the plot of the first three films over six entries, which I for one don't think would have been a good idea. By making Return of the Jedi the way it is, he effectively abandoned the idea of a sequel trilogy.

 

Supposedly ROTJ wasn't supposed to be the final film... Luke wasn't supposed to confront the Emperor until later, Leia and Luke weren't siblings, Luke searches the galaxy for his real sister, Vader doesn't die, etc.  Not sure how much of this is true but ROTJ tried to wrap everything up with a neat bow to tie everything together and resolve all issues.

[Ollie 1,222]

31 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Did anybody actually watch the Luke scene at the end and not think "something is weird about this?"  His dark brown, neatly cropped beard?  It wasn't much of a surprise to me when "the big reveal" happened.

 

Yeah it was weird, the whole setup from the moment he suddenly walks in the fortress to the ending.

 

[Balahkay 629]

32 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Did anybody actually watch the Luke scene at the end and not think "something is weird about this?"  His dark brown, neatly cropped beard?  It wasn't much of a surprise to me when "the big reveal" happened.

 

I figured Yoda's new look inspired Luke to get some quick work done, too.  

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

Vader was never supposed by be Anakin and lied to Luke in TESB. Han was supposed to die and the Falcon was supposed to be destroyed. Luke's Vader was supposed to be still alive and would turn up at the end of ROTJ to help Luke fight Vader and Palpatine. Ewoks were supposed to be Wookiees etc etc...

[Ollie 1,222]

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Vader was never supposed by be Anakin and lied to Luke in TESB. Han was supposed to die and the Falcon was supposed to be destroyed. Luke's Vader was supposed to be still alive and would turn up at the end of ROTJ to help Luke fight Vader and Palpatine. Ewoks were supposed to be Wookiees etc etc...

 

 

Some of the original ideas for ROTJ would have worked better than what ended up on film. I don’t agree with stretching it out to another trilogy but I would gladly trade Ewoks / second Death Star for an army of Wookiees and Vader lying to Luke. 

[Jay 40,692]

7 hours ago, Quintus said:

These are solid observations actually. On paper these basic plot subversions are perfectly sound ideas for something as archetypically rigid as a Star Wars storyline, but in effect the nuts and bolts that are supposed to make these beats slot into place in a way which feels smooth and satisfying are all mangled and uneven. As a result the intended emotional impact of these mechanisms completely fails to connect, there is no resonance for the audience to really care about beyond the on-screen moment itself. It's all surface.

 

I totally agree with all of this!

[Brundlefly 2,399]

49 minutes ago, El Jefe said:

Some of the original ideas for ROTJ would have worked better than what ended up on film. I don’t agree with stretching it out to another trilogy but I would gladly trade Ewoks / second Death Star for an army of Wookiees and Vader lying to Luke. 

The biggest problem of Episode 6 is that all the special effects and action replace much of the characters and the amazing depth of Episode 5 is lost.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

I still get confused by Original Trilogy episode numbers.

[Wojo 2,456]

Really? It's quite simple. 

 

Star Wars IV is the first one. That was the Chiefs beat the Vikings. 

 

Empire was V. Colts beat the Cowboys. 

 

Finally in VI, Jedi, we see the Cowboys over the Dolphins. 

 

I don't see how you could make that any less difficult. 

[Chen G. 4,805]

There is no IV.

 

There's just "the original Star Wars."

 

The inclusion of the tile "Episode IV: A New Hope" (which happened in 1978 re-runs) was as egregious an act of retrofitting as any of the "special edition" changes Lucas would insert later on.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

John Williams never scored a film called A New Hope!

[Wojo 2,456]

8 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

John Williams never scored a film called A New Hope!

 

John Williams scored a movie called Star Wars. It was later renamed with that garbage title, but when that happened, George Lucas forgot to remove John Williams' original score to replace it with something better. So John Williams' score ended up being used in a movie called Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

Correct!

[Ollie 1,222]

It’s Star Wars to me and thats what I’ll always call it.

[Wojo 2,456]

I do use the subtitles as Arabic numbers on my albums to keep them in order on my iPod. 

[Jay 40,692]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The inclusion of the tile "Episode IV: A New Hope" (which happened in 1978 re-runs) 

 

That is not true.  The Episode IV: A New Hope bit wasn't added until the 1981 theatrical re-release.

[Nick1Ø66 6,108]

14 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

That is not true.  The Episode IV: A New Hope bit wasn't added until the 1981 theatrical re-release.

 

And it wasn't really a big deal.

 

Star Wars will always just be Star Wars to me, and the Harmy version I watch is simply titled as such. But in this case I understood why Lucas wanted to add "Episode IV". And it's certainly not anywhere near as egregious as what he did with the Special Editions, which in some cases substantively changed both the narrative and characters. Of all the changes Lucas has made over the years, this one is the most understandable. 

 

Though I do wish he would have come up with something better than "A New Hope".

 

[crocodile 8,808]

12 hours ago, Quintus said:

 

These are solid observations actually. On paper these basic plot subversions are perfectly sound ideas for something as archetypically rigid as a Star Wars storyline, but in effect the nuts and bolts that are supposed to make these beats slot into place in a way which feels smooth and satisfying are all mangled and uneven. As a result the intended emotional impact of these mechanisms completely fails to connect, there is no resonance for the audience to really care about beyond the on-screen moment itself. It's all surface.

The problem has mostly to do with editing. There are films that gracefully intercut sequences. Heck, even Nolan can do it well. But there is something odd about how TLJ is put together. One, some of those different subplots don't really mesh well. Second, they all end up being protracted for way too long and not move forward as if they are all happening at the same time. And feed off each others' energy, if you will. You have story A being intercut with stories B and C and it all is supposed to be creating tension. But once you switch from A to B, everything in the first one comes to a standstill. And eventually it resumes, of course, but there is very little fluidity in editing. Your brain is already getting all the information but you wait another several minutes for the film to catch up. Or at least this is what it feels like.

 

As far as the content goes, the film is fine. Yeah, a lot of things don't make sense (why doesn't the Resistance fleet jump into lightspeed straight away at the beginning?) but it has enough character for it not too matter as much.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 4,805]

10 minutes ago, crocodile said:

There are films that gracefully intercut sequences. Heck, even Nolan can do it well. But there is something odd about how TLJ is put together. One, some of those different subplots don't really mesh well. Second, they all end up being protracted for way too long and not move forward as if they are all happening at the same time. And feed off each others' energy, if you will. You have story A being intercut with stories B and C and it all is supposed to be creating tension. But once you switch from A to B, everything in the first one comes to a standstill. And eventually it resumes, of course, but there is very little fluidity in editing.

 

Nolan films are actually a perfect example of what's wrong with this kind of film-making: I find having three or four different story-lines all firing on all cylinders to be overwrought. Its true of Return of the Jedi, its true of The Dark Knight Rises, its even somewhat true of The Desolation of Smaug. 

 

Its like the writer (be it Nolan or Johnson) is thinking that his core story-line isn't dramatic enough on its own. If that's the case, piling more stuff onto it isn't going to help; if it isn't the case, then you've only created a series of distractions that bog down the centerpiece.

[crocodile 8,808]

The difference between Nolan and Johnson us that the former can actually make it work in editing. As in...it flows from one scene to another. Most of the time anyway.

 

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 2,050]

7 hours ago, El Jefe said:

It seems these film, TFA included, are big on including celebrity cameos.

 

I’m surprised Bryan Cranston didn’t pop up.

Well one of Tfa's (or was is rogue one's) x-wing pilots looks a lot like Walter White

[1977 1,746]

I've been reading some of the ideas for fan edits over at originaltrilogy.com. Some interesting ideas have been put forth, from cutting Canto Bight out completely, removing the opening bombing run and changing the Leia bridge scene to cut straight from closing her eyes - explosion - Leia's hand on door. An entertaining read for sure.

 

Also lots of suggestions to retcon TFA to flow better into TLJ, for example removing all references to Rey's lineage, and have the film iris out with the Falcon going into hyperspace before Ahct-To, saving Rey's arrival and Jedi Steps for TLJ.

[Ollie 1,222]

Well all the plot issues and characters aside, the main thing for me is that I just wasn’t entertained by it.

 

And in the end that’s the goal of a film, entertain its audience.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

I loved it!

[Chen G. 4,805]

I was entertained well enough.

 

I didn't love it, or anything.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

It's subversive! The Mythology of the OT effectively shattered in favor of the real politik approach of the Prequels.

 

[publicist 4,647]

I wasn't bored by it which came as minor miracle (after TFA, and Rogue One, for christ's sake). The whole humourless fan outrage is - by and large - a travesty. The film has its problems, for sure, but then it's supposed to be a fun space adventure and not a sacred scripture (those unwritten 'saga rules' weigh heavily, it seems).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

"Luke wouldn't throw away the lightsaber" is not a valid critique of that film.

 

Fucking fanboys!

[publicist 4,647]

Cut out that floating princess!! It belies the law of physics!!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

"Yoda is a book-burner! "

[publicist 4,647]

God is my witness, i will never be raped by a franchise again!

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

"Like you would like it if your childhood heroes were misrepresented in this way!"

[John 2,032]

Anyone who claims a movie "ruined" their childhood must have had a pretty fragile childhood to begin with.

[publicist 4,647]

Before the advent of the internet i had no idea that such people really existed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,528]

"The 2002 E.T. revisions broke my heart."

[Nick1Ø66 6,108]

41 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It's subversive! The Mythology of the OT effectively shattered in favor of the real politik approach of the Prequels.

 

 

Uh-huh.

 

How would you like it if your precious Captain Sisko came back as a Pah-Wraith!

[Wojo 2,456]

9 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

How would you like it if your precious Captain Sisko came back as a Pah-Wraith!

 

I would absolutely love it because it would mean a return to the Prime Trek universe set after Nemesis that we abandoned fifteen years ago, as opposed to either prequel universe we've been stuck with for close to ten years. 

[Nick1Ø66 6,108]

Amen!

[1977 1,746]

I'd be interested to know what Leia's larger role would have entailed going forward, if Carrie Fisher had still been with us. Anyone think she would have assumed the mantle of trainer to Rey, in the (physical) absence of Luke?

[Luke Skywalker 2,050]

Leia from the old EU? maybe.

 

This new leia, apparently untrained for decades i doubt it.

 

More likely that both of them would learn the ways of the force together reading Rey's stolen books.

Luke is going to appear as a force ghost anyway... so the teacher problem is solved