Extreme polarisation in modern film reception, aka TLJ didn't suck that badly

[Chen G. 3,949]

As pieces of earnst entertainment - sure.

 

As tools to learn about movies - you can't beat bad movies. Besides, if you view them from a craftsmanship point of view, they often become hillarious. Just watch Supergirl some day with the mindset of "what were they thinking?" throughout. You'll laugh your ass off.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

You've misunderstood the point of the Supergirl film.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

While I tend to see films and other media as creations from other human beings, and thus tend to look at them from the "creator's angle" ("Why did they do this?" "Interesting choice here!" etc.), I wonder how far down the rabbit hole a person really has to go. We live in the time where it seems like everyone with a YouTube channel know how to analyze a film from that perspective, with countless videos and essays and such titled "Why _____ doesn't work", or "How to make _____ better".

 

While I agree, Chen, that bad products, no matter the medium, serve as great educators (Ray Bradbury wrote his first story 'cause he saw a sucky Tarzan sequel on TV and thought he could write a better one), my question is: of all of these Internet critics, how many of them are actually tearing up these things for educational purposes? How many of them are actually using it to better their "craft", if they even have one?

 

The reasoning can strike me as on the apologetic side, if not disingenuous, like when people defend playing video games because it "enhances their hand-eye coordination".

[Chen G. 3,949]

Oh, I think that the people who do this for intellectual reasons are a minority, sure.

 

The rest just do it because its fun to make fun of stuff!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

I kind of see @Chen G.'s point, but it should be remembered that it takes a lot of effort to make a bad film. How much more effort does it take, to make a good, or a great, film?

Personally, I think that more attention is given, in film-school, to CITIZEN KANE, than is given to RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATOES.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

18 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

You got city hands, Mr.Hooper!

 

It's gone under! 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

13 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

my question is: of all of these Internet critics, how many of them are actually tearing up these things for educational purposes? How many of them are actually using it to better their "craft", if they even have one?

 

I'd say not many. If we're talking about YouTube, many of these so-called critics are only uploading certain content because it's relevant to the current trend. They of course exploit these trends, by garnering hits and click-views, to create a revenue stream for themselves. I even recognised this about seven years ago when I tried to tell an advertising saleswoman on my team that negativity sells because people love a good yarn. Her response was true to the sales culture mentality in her belief that only positivity sells and advertisers freak out when they see negative stories uploaded. This was all crap influenced by her motivational speaker heroes from the positivity cult like Bob Proctor and Tony Robbins. God, she was a pain in the arse, that one.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

 

Joking aside, this was actually my entry point into Drax's thread. I've long found it curious how people will happily (and often nauseatingly) debate and dissect movies (and TV shows for that matter) even after they have claimed not to have enjoyed them. It has become a common behavioural characteristic of all forum discussion, recognisable all over the internet, and I find it interesting. My own theory to describe the phenomenon is something I'll call 'negative celebration', specifically, the internet pastime of talking with others indefinitely about movies we claim to be of poor quality. What do people get out of it.

 

 

 

To be fair to the people who were engaged in this discussion, Star Wars is one of a handful of "franchises" that can elicit this kind of behaviour. I didn't participate in this thread, but let's face it.. people do have an emotional and historical attachment to Star Wars, and often a very strong one, which is going to cause them to feel an out sized passion about what they've seen. And the more they have invested in Star Wars, and the more expectations they have of it, the more vocal they're likely to be when one of the films don't meet those expectations. I think there are people spending hours bitching about TLJ who wouldn't spend one minute complaining about, say, Transformers, because they just don't care.  

 

Then again, there are some people, that the internet obviously brings out, that like to bitch about everything. So I do understand your point and in general agree with it...if you don't like something, why invest time getting worked about it? We've all gone to movies with friends and after there's always the person who talks about nothing but what's wrong with the film. But I think there's a distinction between whinging about something, and just concentrating on the negative (very common), and engaging in genuine critical thinking (very uncommon).

 

 

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

To be fair to the people who were engaged in this discussion, Star Wars is one of a handful of "franchises" that can elicit this kind of behaviour. I didn't participate in this thread, but let's face it.. people do have an emotional and historical attachment to Star Wars, and often a very strong one, which is going to cause them to feel an out sized passion about what they've seen. And the more they have invested in Star Wars, and the more expectations they have of it, the more vocal they're likely to be when one of the films don't meet those expectations. I think there are people spending hours btching about TLJ who wouldn't spend one minute complaining about, say, Transformers, because they just don't care.  

 

Very true.

 

But beyond people who are obsessed with Star Wars and may not approach a new Star Wars film from an emotionaly sincere point-of-view (because they're predisposed to either hate or love it) and their reaction can therefore be overblown for better or worst; beyond those people, it should be said, there are people who appreciate Star Wars for its enduring nature, and for its ability to churn out an impactful film such as The Empire Strikes Back.

 

And that potential has transformed Star Wars into something that, while not uniform in its quality of filmmaking, does have a certain profoundness to it. And all of this does mean that there is a rightful sense of anticipation for these films to be good and even somewhat meaningful.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

Now, just a damn minute!

This is a movie-discussion website, and, right now, we are discussing movie-discussion websites?

How very meta 

[Pellaeon 593]

7 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

To be fair to the people who were engaged in this discussion, Star Wars is one of a handful of "franchises" that can elicit this kind of behaviour. I didn't participate in this thread, but let's face it.. people do have an emotional and historical attachment to Star Wars, and often a very strong one, which is going to cause them to feel an out sized passion about what they've seen. And the more they have invested in Star Wars, and the more expectations they have of it, the more vocal they're likely to be when one of the films don't meet those expectations.

 

That’s right, and in the case of TLJ, the phenomenon is aggravated by the writer-director deliberately choosing at every turn to subvert audience expectations. Making Luke unheroic, killing off Luke, no explanation of Rey, no explanation of Snoke, killing off Snoke, putting Finn and Poe in their place, you know the whole laundry list—these were all risky decisions which were not guaranteed to be crowd-pleasers. I understand the ESB “twist” is somewhat of a tradition, but, this endless stream of 90 degree turns comes off as a big middle finger to all who have been following the franchise and who expect a generally logical progression from one entry to the next.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

15 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

1. Titanic quotes

 

I don't know about you, but...I intend to write a strongly-worded letter to Lucasfilm about all this.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

3 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

 

That’s right, and in the case of TLJ, the phenomenon is aggravated by the writer-director deliberately choosing at every turn to subvert audience expectations. Making Luke unheroic, killing off Luke, no explanation of Rey, no explanation of Snoke, killing off Snoke, putting Finn and Poe in their place, you know the whole laundry list—these were all risky decisions which were not guaranteed to be crowd-pleasers. I understand the ESB “twist” is somewhat of a tradition, but, this endless stream of 90 degree turns comes off as a big middle finger to all who have been following the franchise and who expect a generally logical progression from one entry to the next.

 

Seriously which other of these films had an ESB-style twist? Maybe RotJ, but I don't remember any in the prequels, TFA or R1.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Sith has a crazier twist ending. When watching properly in order, one would never have expected any of that shit to go down the way it did. Anakin turns evil, gets chopped and burned up and becomes a robot??

[Pellaeon 593]

RotJ had the Leia twist. Palpatine = Sidious is a big twist if you’re pretending the Prequels aren’t Prequels. But I didn’t really mean any of that; the “endless stream” of twists I referred to were all in TLJ.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

M Night should make one.

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

Sith has a crazier twist ending. When watching properly in order, one would never have expected any of that shit to go down the way it did. Anakin turns evil, gets chopped and burned up and becomes a robot??

 

Anakin becoming evil isn’t a complete surprise. He decapitates Dooku, he is tempted by palpatine constantly. And that’s just Revenge of the Sith. Attack of the Clones especially is so unecessarily portentous with the killing of the sand people and Anakin’s confession with that quote of the Imperial March.

 

Watching in order would also mean that the twists of Empire Strikes Back And Return of the Jedi are spoiled for new audiences. That’s part of why Star Wars will never work as a marathon viewing.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Of course it works as a marathon.  One simply has to let go of the foolish notion that all the plot twists have to be surprises.  Pick a favored order and go with it.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

6 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

 

I don't know about you, but...I intend to write a strongly-worded letter to Lucasfilm about all this.

 

Lucas? Is he a passenger?

[Chen G. 3,949]

49 minutes ago, Bryant Burnette said:

Of course it works as a marathon.  One simply has to let go of the foolish notion that all the plot twists have to be surprises.  Pick a favored order and go with it.

 

It really doesn't. The Empire Strikes Back twist is meant to be a surprise.

 

Besides, you have a first film (The Phantom Menace) that does very little to push the overall narrative forward, nor succesfully enraptures a new audience with the characters and the story; you have three films (the prequels) which outsize the films that come "after" them in terms of the scale of the action setpieces (even if they're nowhere near as interesting), rather than form a natural escalation; and you have five films building up to a resolution (in Return of the Jedi) that wasn't that great even as the resolution for the two films that immediately precede them, let alone more than twice that. And all of that - for that very resolution to be instantly discarded for another whole trilogy; and even within that trilogy, the middle film feels way too conclusive for a middle film.

 

And you have story repititions that make the films feel even more less like a natural continuation to the films that they precede: its not just The Force Awakens. Return of the Jedi, which in a marathon viewing comes directly before it, also rehashes a lot of the original Star Wars. And you have stylistic differences due to the changing directors and writers, even within the first three films.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

On 13/04/2018 at 2:21 PM, Chen G. said:

You're over-thinking this.

 

Ironic comment of the year.  😏

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

2 hours ago, Bryant Burnette said:

Pick a favored order and go with it.

 

I, II and III in that order. With occasional Ewok movies. All you need.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

TPM is all a SW fan needs.

[A24 4,340]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And you have story repititions that make the films feel even more less like a natural continuation to the films that they precede: its not just The Force Awakens. Return of the Jedi, which in a marathon viewing comes directly before it, also rehashes a lot of the original Star Wars. And you have stylistic differences due to the changing directors and writers, even within the first three films.

 

The third one differs enormously but Star Wars and Empire are not that different. If I didn't know any better, I would say it was the same director of the first movie but with a bigger budget.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You cant see the difference between Lucas and Kirsher? Hmmm...

[A24 4,340]

I've said that I can't seen much difference between Star Wars and Empire.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hmmmm....

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The prequels are bad films especially the last two and John's music reflects how bad they are and how weak is scores are especially aotc. Revenge of the Sith is so bad Lucas needed someone just to slap him and tell him no start over you can do better which she probably couldn't have done it is so awful

[Holko 9,529]

Watched some AotC snippets over in the restored music thread, without dialogue, at times it's on the level of a bloody Youtube fan film. That homestead dialogue scene, the way it's lit, blocked, directed and acted is not even laughable, just inept, the shot afterwards with the shadows is kind of neat but then we get Anakin getting on his speeder with an incredibly obvious digital zoom added in post that changes mid-shot to a zoom and pan down, then the horrible compositing of him riding the bike with no outlines, colour or lighting matching up, with Duel of the Fates of course because it's an "epic" moment... It's a random minute out of context, and it feels like Lucas' kids made it in their backyard, not like a multimillion-dollar entry in one of the most popular and lucrative franchises in history.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Besides, you have a first film (The Phantom Menace) that does very little to push the overall narrative forward, nor succesfully enraptures a new audience with the characters and the story

 

Try telling my nieces and nephews that.  They'll laugh at you.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 hours ago, Holko said:

Duel of the Fates of course because it's an "epic" moment

 

It's symbolizing his walk to the inevitable, it's destiny!

 

I haven't watched Attack of the Clones in a decade, outside of the restored music thread.

[1977 1,743]

On 14 April 2018 at 5:54 PM, Chen G. said:

Just watch Supergirl some day with the mindset of "what were they thinking?" throughout. You'll laugh your ass off.

 

On 14 April 2018 at 6:05 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

You've misunderstood the point of the Supergirl film.

 

Lelsie Halliwell gave Supergirl one star. Superman: The Movie got zilch. Go figure. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

5 hours ago, Holko said:

Watched some AotC snippets over in the restored music thread, without dialogue, at times it's on the level of a bloody Youtube fan film. That homestead dialogue scene, the way it's lit, blocked, directed and acted is not even laughable, just inept, the shot afterwards with the shadows is kind of neat but then we get Anakin getting on his speeder with an incredibly obvious digital zoom added in post that changes mid-shot to a zoom and pan down, then the horrible compositing of him riding the bike with no outlines, colour or lighting matching up, with Duel of the Fates of course because it's an "epic" moment... It's a random minute out of context, and it feels like Lucas' kids made it in their backyard, not like a multimillion-dollar entry in one of the most popular and lucrative franchises in history.

 

The desert scenes in the old SW movies look like crap and even the dialogue is bad. Aunt Beru is the worst performance in the series. AOTC is consistent with the preceding movies. It looks just like the old movie. I mean are we really going to criticize "digital zooms" and "lighting not matching up" now? They're popcorn space movies for adolescents. Just watch Star Trek.

[1977 1,743]

Does TLJ improve on a second viewing? I saw it once on opening day. I know the issues I have with the film will still be there, but perhaps without the baggage of expectation I'll be able to relax and just enjoy it for what it is?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I think you SW fans have too much baggage to realistically view anything. I've already forgotten most of TLJ. It's a popcorn space movie 2 hour distraction.

[Pellaeon 593]

 

Really looking forward to this!

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

 

The desert scenes in the old SW movies look like crap and even the dialogue is bad. Aunt Beru is the worst performance in the series. AOTC is consistent with the preceding movies. It looks just like the old movie. I mean are we really going to criticize "digital zooms" and "lighting not matching up" now? They're popcorn space movies for adolescents.

 

I'm by far not the biggest fan of the original Star Wars, but its nowhere near as bad as Attack of the Clones. You may call them "popcorn space movies" but Attack of the Clones doesn't even meet that bar. Not by a long shot. Its possibly the worst entry ever in a large film franchise.

 

4 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

I've already forgotten most of TLJ. It's a popcorn space movie 2 hour distraction.

 

Its a bit more impactful than that, or it wouldn't be as enduring. Most Star Wars films don't follow, tonally, in the steps of the original Star Wars (which would be more "popcorn entertainment") so much as they do in Empire Strikes Back's footsteps. Even The Force Awakens, while very fun, has patricide.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Star Wars (1977) doesnt fit very well with all the others in terms of tone and style. It needs to be remade at some point.

The score sounds wrong too.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's not realistic or relatable enough.

[A24 4,340]

10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Star Wars (1977) doesnt fit very well with all the others in terms of tone and style. It needs to be remade at some point.

 

 

They did remake it. It's called Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

With newly enhanced visual effects, THX, and digital sound. And a few new surprises.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes! And it fits much better with the rest. Even the score feels more Star Wars-like.

[A24 4,340]

And pussy power!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

[mstrox 6,651]

6 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Does TLJ improve on a second viewing? I saw it once on opening day. I know the issues I have with the film will still be there, but perhaps without the baggage of expectation I'll be able to relax and just enjoy it for what it is?

 

It worked that way for me.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

6 hours ago, Margo Channing said:

With newly enhanced visual effects, THX, and digital sound. And a few new surprises.

 

...and a $50,000,000 price tag, for H.Ford, esq...or, to put it another way, 

TFA with Ford cost $250,000,000, and TLJ without Ford cost $200,000,000.

Do the math...

 

Ps, @Margo Channing.

Jerry, STAR WARS was THXed, in 1997.

[mstrox 6,651]

I think that's a direct quote from the trailer for Star Wars Special Edition.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

12 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

 

The desert scenes in the old SW movies look like crap and even the dialogue is bad. Aunt Beru is the worst performance in the series. AOTC is consistent with the preceding movies. It looks just like the old movie. I mean are we really going to criticize "digital zooms" and "lighting not matching up" now? They're popcorn space movies for adolescents. Just watch Star Trek.

 

SW is hokey, silly, dumb and cringy. But it's got a lot of heart, it's got a soul. AOTC only has the negative stuff. It has no passion, no care.

[mstrox 6,651]

17 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

AOTC only has the negative stuff. It has no passion, no care.

 

AOTC is course and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere.  Not like Star Wars.  There everything is soft and smooth. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

32 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

SW is hokey

 

THANK YOU!