Chen G. 3,950 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I've said it many times, but filmmaking is one the least consistent professions out there: one day you churn out a masterwork, the other day - a mediocre film. Its just too complex and interdisciplinary an artform for one to be genuinely on-top of it throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, Mattris said: What I should have said is that the directors, producers, and writers are being paid extremely well to do their jobs. The fans, who pay to see their films, should hold their films to a high standard - and not be concerned with their anxiety issues. Just automate filmmaking then. Everything else is going that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattris 416 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 The over-arching problem at Lucasfilm is much more serious than "the production woes surrounding the spin-off films". Whether you want to admit it or not, The Last Jedi was a major misstep for Lucasfilm. And what followed was just as bad: employees communicating with fans in grossly unprofessional ways, painting concerned/complaining Star Wars fans as stupid, racist, sexist, manbabies. Don't think this - and their aggressive agenda-driven approach to story-telling - goes unnoticed. Fans are being driven away in droves. This is no way for a brand or company to expand and succeed moving forward. Let me be clear. The fans are not upset because of sexism or because "things didn't turn out like they wanted it to". The fans are upset because, in general, the stories and characters are written poorly. People that don't notice the story-telling issues... or won't admit that they exist, is not the fans' fault for being discerning viewers. It's within the fans' rights to voice their concerns and/or stop going to these movies. I just realized that in 22 pages, we haven't mentioned General Hux, Captain Phasma, BB-8, or the porgs. What's the consensus? Are we disenchanted with any of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Mattris said: It's obvious to me (and millions of others) that Kathleen Kennedy wanted to use Star Wars to further her SJW/feminist agenda. So far, it hasn't worked out. But she can keep trying... until she is fired or moves on, of course. You just said earlier it was a SJW/feminist issue... Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,531 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Hux is a delightfully hammy and incompetent goof who thinks he's a leader, it'll be interesting to see the rift between him and Kylo develop in 9 - a possible separation of the FO helping its downfall? Phasma is a throwaway henchman who was marketed and consequently hyped by fans as much more, a bit too useless even when not taking that into account. BB8 is fun. The porgs have their moments, but just a bit too many of them. It's a cute idea of representing Skellig Michael's wildlife instead of erasing it. Taikomochi and John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Hux is a fucking disaster, one thing I can agree with Mattris. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Hux is dreadful. Really, all the villains in the film are. BB-8 and the Porgs are delivered in such small doses that they're really a none-issue. I had a small issue with the comedy surrounding the caretakers, though. Nothing too major, but still. 13 minutes ago, Mattris said: their aggressive agenda-driven approach to story-telling goes unnoticed. I would disapprove of a feminist agenda infused into tentpole blockbusters as much as the next guy, but I really don't see your case when it refers specifically to these latest Star Wars films. There are three female characters in a film with quite a big cast. Its really not an issue. 13 minutes ago, Mattris said: The fans are upset because, in general, the stories and characters are written poorly. If you don't notice the story-telling issues, won't admit that they exist, or don't noticed them at all that's on you. Oh, there are storytelling issues with all these films all right, but for me personally none of them are that substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,531 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Mattris said: If you don't notice the story-telling issues, won't admit that they exist, or don't noticed them at all that's on you. But millions of fans have noticed. OK, please list about 2-3 huge storytelling flaws in the sequel trilogy so far and shortly explain why they are so significant that they break the whole thing for you. No circlejerk Youtube videos please, I'm interested in your examples and explanation. Genuine flaws which don't work for you, not nitpicks and "huge plotholes" which are brought up by 90% of commenter mobs and can be explained away with 10 seconds of thinking for yourself or actually paying attention and understanding characters, arcs and plot structure. Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 @Mattris On the point of holding the filmmakers to account or them owing the fans something I think you're being a tad bit disingenuous. They don't owe anyone anything, they're there to make a film and then leave. Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Holko said: OK, please list about 2-3 huge storytelling flaws in the sequel trilogy so far and shortly explain why they are so significant that they break the whole thing for you. No circlejerk Youtube videos please, I'm interested in your examples and explanation. Genuine flaws which don't work for you, not nitpicks and "huge plotholes" which are brought up by 90% of commenter mobs and can be explained away with 10 seconds of thinking for yourself or actually paying attention and understanding characters, arcs and plot structure. He never ever talks about 'himself', but for millions of fans. Like with Prez Trump, nothing below world significance will do. Holko and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 No more lectures, Pubi-Wan. At least not on the economics of politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Chen G. said: Oh, there are storytelling issues with all these films all right, but for me personally none of them are that substantial. There's a huge time flaw in TESB where Luke apparently gets trained to become a Jedi in...a few days? There are also major character inconsistencies between film in the original trilogy. No one cares about that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 But doesn't Luke leave Dagobah before he can complete his training? He barely holds his own against Vader, who's basically toying with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Yet in the next one Yoda tells him he requires no more training. What a mess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I sure hope somebody was fired for that blunder in the Space Fairy Tale Movie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Yes. George Lucas. Only 30 years too late! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Hux is hilarious (my favourite moment is when he considers killing Kylo while he's unconscious) and the other elements of the movie mentioned in this page are fine. As for "feminist agenda", it's the same as anything else. When you make something your convictions are always going to be there, directly, indirectly, in everything from character design to plot to morals to everywhere. You can't get rid of it. It's like asking Guillermo del Toro to not make movies about monsters; ideally there's always a personality there. But I can't see what so particularly feminist about this one given that it's not an issue in-universe (or at least that's the idea I get from the movies? I don't know). The meta-narrative might be but that'd imply people are actually annoyed about women talking on screen (because that's all it is), which... like... I mean... it's a bad look. Docteur Qui and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 22 minutes ago, Stefancos said: There's a huge time flaw in TESB where Luke apparently gets trained to become a Jedi in...a few days? I don't care. We don't learn anything in that movie about the passage of time (really, in most of them) so as to arise our suspicion as we're watching it: rationalizing it after-the-fact doesn't count. Rather, in watching The Empire Strikes Back, the audience is just swept away in the energy of the film. Mattris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted June 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2018 One thing is certain: George Lucas didn't kill Star Wars, and neither has Kennedy. The "fans" will though. The Illustrious Jerry, Holko, Taikomochi and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 3,950 Posted June 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2018 "No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans do." mstrox, Arpy, Docteur Qui and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, Chen G. said: "No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans do." Seems to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/george-lucas-red-tails.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1 Was reminded of this bit recently Quote Lucas seized control of his movies from the studios only to discover that the fanboys could still give him script notes. “Why would I make any more,” Lucas says of the “Star Wars” movies, “when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post John 2,032 Posted June 11, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Holko said: Hux is a delightfully hammy and incompetent goof who thinks he's a leader, it'll be interesting to see the rift between him and Kylo develop in 9 - a possible separation of the FO helping its downfall? Yes! Hux is a wonderfully smarmy villain who I vastly prefer in TLJ than in TFA. I thought the scene where he contemplates shooting an unconscious Ren was a great character-defining moment for the character. 5 hours ago, Mattris said: The fans are not upset because of sexism or because "things didn't turn out like they wanted it to". The fans are upset because, in general, the stories and characters are written poorly. No, you are upset. You do not speak for the majority. Most fans appreciate and enjoy these new movies for what they are, while you sit in your basement grumbling with nachos and anger. The Illustrious Jerry, Taikomochi and Sharkissimo 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 8 minutes ago, mstrox said: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/george-lucas-red-tails.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1 Was reminded of this bit recently With this fitting image nugget: Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Fandom Menace has more of a ring to it. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indianagirl 298 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 7 hours ago, Mattris said: Nah, it's Kathleen Kennedy who has lost. Mark my words, she'll announce her resignation within a few months. Mark my words. She won't. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 In my headcanon Mattris is always holding a pitchfork and waving a flaming torch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 BURN HER BURN HER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Choose Star Wars, or the fire. Resign or YOU WILL BUUURRN. Arpy and The Illustrious Jerry 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Why does it even matter whether the new movies are good or not? Only the old ones really matter anyway. The new ones are just a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I didn't notice an SJW/feminist agenda, and neither did anyone else I know. But even if it was there, who cares? Just enjoy the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 But we can't, there's too many wimming characters for us to be able to enjoy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Demodex said: I didn't notice an SJW/feminist agenda, and neither did anyone else I know. But even if it was there, who cares? Just enjoy the movie. I suppose people look at Laura Dern's purple hairdo and they think of this: Kasey Kockroach, Holko and Demodex 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 That is officially the worst thing you've ever posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Demodex said: I didn't notice an SJW/feminist agenda, and neither did anyone else I know. But even if it was there, who cares? Just enjoy the movie. There's definitely a conserted effort to have strong female characters in these new films, and you can certainly sense something of a strong social message too. The thing is that I for the live of my cannot figure out why this should be a problem? People like this Mattris remind me of the "Male Rights Activists" who called for a boycott of Mad Max: Fury Road because it had too many strong female characters. Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 But no, they're not sexist. Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Oh they are unbelievably sexist. But thats par for the course these days, even on JWFan. Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 When did MRA become something beyond just regular blokes advocating for an end to disproportionate judicial bias towards women in spousal separation cases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Nothing wrong with sexism. It's a two-way street and a natural part of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, Margo Channing said: When did MRA become something beyond just regular blokes advocating for an end to disproportionate judicial bias towards women in spousal separation cases? You tell me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Stefancos said: You tell me? I dunno! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Nor do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Do you know who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 @kaseykockroach do you have Mattris on ignore? Ha! This thread is like a debate club: Mattris always the minority. Nothing to say about Star Wars anymore, except the toys are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Is there much more to debate though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Whenever Mattris shows up in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Mattris said: The over-arching problem at Lucasfilm is much more serious than "the production woes surrounding the spin-off films". Whether you want to admit it or not, The Last Jedi was a major misstep for Lucasfilm. And what followed was just as bad: employees communicating with fans in grossly unprofessional ways, painting concerned/complaining Star Wars fans as stupid, racist, sexist, manbabies. Don't think this - and their aggressive agenda-driven approach to story-telling - goes unnoticed. Fans are being driven away in droves. This is no way for a brand or company to expand and succeed moving forward. Let me be clear. The fans are not upset because of sexism or because "things didn't turn out like they wanted it to". The fans are upset because, in general, the stories and characters are written poorly. If you don't notice the story-telling issues, won't admit that they exist, or don't noticed them at all that's on you. But millions of fans have noticed. And it's within their rights to voice their concerns and stop going to these movies. I just realized that in 22 pages, we haven't mentioned General Hux, Captain Phasma, BB-8, or the porgs. What's the consensus? Are we disenchanted with any of them? Hux is great. Phasma is badass but wasted (Enfys Nest is better, mostly because she gets more screen time to be awesome). BB-8 will never be R2-D2 or C-3PO, but he/she/it doesn't need to be. The porgs are cute but not vital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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