Star Wars Disenchantment

[leeallen01 2,136]

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

Tell us, oh master of scriptwriting, how TLJ changes the lore of the franchise - rememver, the EU is in the garbage amd the new books have lower relevance than the films.

 

You can hyperspace into a utterly massive ship and destroy it, and many others around it very easily. If this is possible, every single battle in previous Star Wars films seems pointless, when you can just fly a ship into another on autopilot or flown by a droid.

[Holko 9,535]

 

Having to sacrifice the biggest capital ship the Rebellion or the Resistance ever had in order to only cripple another giant capital ship with its life support and power supply still intact long enough for most of the crew to evacuate? Truly franchise-breaking.

[Quintus 5,399]

36 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Really, when the political stuff on JWFan becomes verboten I hope Jason and Ricard also take care of this stuff.

 

Isn't this the thread that has had umpteen title changes though? As soon as I saw it was 20+ pages about the uninteresting Han Solo movie I've given it a wide birth ever since. The times I did peak around the curtain (like this morning) I've seen nothing anywhere near as entertaining as the political arguments happening in OT. And they're winding those down! Meanwhile, this thread is the epitome of insufferable JWFAN carosel nerdom, dull as fucking dishwater - and left open to fester near the top of GD. Because you all love it! 

[leeallen01 2,136]

13 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

Having to sacrifice the biggest capital ship the Rebellion or the Resistance ever had in order to only cripple another giant capital ship with its life support and power supply still intact long enough for most of the crew to evacuate? Truly franchise-breaking.

 

Nice try. But one ship destroys snokes mothership and countless star destroyers. In the film there is a scene where one of their medical ships is falling back into the first order and is destroyed. They could have just turned around and hyperspaced into them and allowed their other ships to escape. But Rian wasn't ready for that scene yet so he 'forgot' about it until Holdo did it later for more impact. That is bad writing.

 

Also: Characters in the first order say in the film that their ship is smaller so we can't catch up. Yet all previous larger ships have had no problem catching a smaller one. For example, the first scene in the entire franchise in 1977. Amongst other scenes throughout other SW films. 

 

Also the entire film is a slow 'car' chase based on fuel. Apparently now all of a sudden, at maximum speed, first order ships can only fly exactly the same speed as rebellion ships. When shown in all other films that isn't true. Yet they launch 3 fighters to attack the ships and they can catch up fine... so why didn't the first order just launch all of their thousands of fighters and destroy the rebellion in 5 seconds? Let me guess, they're arrogant and can wait for them to lose fuel? Yet another contrivance to continue the story along. 

 

Why would the Rebellion not use y-wings to attack the dreadnaught? Instead they built all new vastly slower and useless bombers to attack... and lost every single one in the process.

 

I can probably give you about 600 reasons why this film is terribly written.

 

[Mattris 416]

On 07/04/2019 at 5:00 AM, Stefancos said:

What questions? Do I have to scroll up far?

 

(copy-pasted)

 

My point is that John Williams composed Rey's Theme based on the TFA, as well as what JJ told him about his plans for her. Am I wrong to expect Rey to be related to Palpatine and/or Vader in some way in IX?

Do you agree that Rey's Theme was deliberately composed to include those references... and that he did so for a logical reason, just as Anakin's Theme contained Darth Vader's Theme?

You questioned me about the use of specific themes for individual scenes within the films. There is no correlation.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 5:03 AM, Quintus said:

I think it's perfectly possible that similarities exist between musical ideas, sure. Whether or not the references inferred are by design or are there out of simple coincidence, fuck knows. Some of the stuff being attributed to here though is tenuous to say the least. But if you're happy to doggedly hold onto your theories at all costs (why so vehemently I'll never understand), then hey ho that's up to you. 

 

My own theory though doesn't involve anybody being lied to. I'd say either Rey will be the villainous twist that might spice these movies up a bit (unlikely), or you were just wrong all along. But I get the impression that this perfectly reasonable configuration is beyond your acceptable plane of existence. 

 

"Similarities" is not what John Williams did with Rey's Theme. For some reason unknown to me, you're not giving John Williams the credit for the cleverly integrated references that are factually present. So, by definition, I cannot be "wrong" about the contents of the music. Regardless of what happens in IX, I will respect John Williams.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 5:04 AM, leeallen01 said:

I feel like I'm in a mental institution. People believing that this trilogy's story is planned is hilarious to me. I can't believe that TLJ convinced you that they know what they're doing haha.

 

When you see Ep9, you will realise just how improvised and amateur the filmmakers have been with this trilogy.

 

I always thought there were standards to storytelling. That you had to have narrative consistency and not contradict your own story and characters within your own film. But I guess I was wrong. I guess you can write a story that doesn't make sense, with characters changing their entire personality scene by scene. You can litter your film with plot and character contrivances just to keep your story going, and you can change the lore of your own franchise to suit your narrative choices.

 

I'm sorry folks, but you can 'like' TLJ, but it is not good writing. That is an irrefutable fact.

 

Did you read my responses to you previous long post? I feel like I have an understanding of the bigger picture. Long story short, TLJ was meant to be subversive and portray failure. Rian Johnson was given considerable freedom, and it's clear he took advantage. But when you take a step back, the film does move the story forward, even though the events occurred in the day or two after TFA. Snoke and Luke are now dead. Kylo is the Supreme Leader of the First Order, and the Resistance has been almost entirely depleted. How did characters change their entire personality scene by scene? Do you care what happens with the surviving characters? I didn't care for much of TLJ, but it did have moments that were impressive and important to the overall story. Regardless of popular sentiment, the trilogy can still turn out well.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 5:06 AM, Holko said:

the new books have lower relevance than the films.

 

How so? All of the new material (including the novels, comics, and video games) is canon.

[leeallen01 2,136]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I feel like I have an understanding of the bigger picture. Long story short, TLJ was meant to be subversive and portray failure. Rian Johnson was given considerable freedom, and it's clear he took advantage. But when you take a step back, the film does move the story forward, even though the events occurred in the day or two after TFA. Snoke and Luke are now dead. Kylo is the Supreme Leader of the First Order, and the Resistance has been almost entirely depleted. How did characters change their entire personality scene by scene? Do you care what happens with the surviving characters? I didn't care for much of TLJ, but it did have moments that were impressive and important to the overall story. Regardless of popular sentiment, the trilogy can still turn out well.

 

 

Yep, I'm in a mental institution.

[Mattris 416]

32 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

They could have just turned around and hyperspaced into them and allowed their other ships to escape. But Rian wasn't ready for that scene yet so he 'forgot' about it until Holdo did it later for more impact. That is bad writing.

 

Maybe they were under direct orders from Holdo/Leia not to hyperspace ram? Not sure why.

 

32 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Also: Characters in the first order say in the film that their ship is smaller so we can't catch up. Yet all previous larger ships have had no problem catching a smaller one. For example, the first scene in the entire franchise in 1977. Amongst other scenes throughout other SW films

 

True, mass is of no concern within the vacuum of space. More-powerful engines = faster.

 

32 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Also the entire film is a slow 'car' chase based on fuel. Apparently now all of a sudden, at maximum speed, first order ships can only fly exactly the same speed as rebellion ships. When shown in all other films that isn't true. Yet they launch 3 fighters to attack the ships and they can catch up fine... so why didn't the first order just launch all of their thousands of fighters and destroy the rebellion in 5 seconds? Let me guess, they're arrogant and can wait for them to lose fuel? Yet another contrivance to continue the story along.

 

If the First Order completely destroyed the Resistance, Rey and Luke wouldn't be tempted to come out of hiding. This must have been Snoke's plan.

 

17 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Yep, I'm in a mental institution.

 

That wasn't very nice. Suit yourself. I have hope for 9. Did you read my responses to your longer post from a couple of pages back?

[leeallen01 2,136]

4 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Maybe they were under direct orders from Holdo/Leia not to hyperspace ram?

 

 

True, mass is of no concern within the vacuum of space. More-powerful engines = faster.

 

 

If the First Order completely destroyed the Resistance, Rey and Luke wouldn't be tempted to come out of hiding. This must have been Snoke's plan.

 

 

Yep, another problem.

 

 

Suit yourself. I have hope for 9. Did you read my responses to your longer post from a couple of pages ago?

 

 

People love to write the films for the filmmakers. Whenever anyone presents a legitimate problem with the TLJ, they are met with someone 'filling in' plot holes for the filmmakers. 

 

Maybe a character meant for this to happen? Maybe she meant to say this? Maybe he always wanted that to fail? Maybe the ship is this or that? Maybe the filmmakers wanted us to think this or that?

 

If it didn't happen in the film, then it didn't happen.

[Score 770]

4 minutes ago, Mattris said:

True, mass is of no concern within the vacuum of space. More-powerful engines = faster.

 

No.

[Holko 9,535]

And you're writing mistakes into it. How do you even come up with things like "why didn't the other ship already jump into it, hurr durr bad writing"? Holdo thought of it in the heat of the moment with nothing to lose, that's the end of it.

[leeallen01 2,136]

1 minute ago, Score said:

 

No.

 

I don't care about the 'in-film' science. But the convenience of two different sized and powered ships at maximum speed, both being identical in speed, is pathetic storytelling.

 

1 minute ago, Holko said:

And you're writing mistakes into it. How do you even come up with things like "why didn't the other ship already jump into it, hurr durr bad writing"? Holdo thought of it in the heat of the moment with nothing to lose, that's the end of it.

 

I think you meant to say "Rian Johnson needed a way of eliminating the threat, so he invented new lore and stuck it awkardly in to move his story along."

[Holko 9,535]

What the hell is wrong with expanding the lore?

[Chen G. 3,958]

5 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

I don't care about the 'in-film' science. But the convenience of two different sized and powered ships at maximum speed, both being identical in speed, is pathetic storytelling.

 

That's not the issue.

 

The issue is that you can't maintain that level of intensity of "The First Order is right on the heels of the Ressistance and about to decimate them" throughout the entirety of your 2.5 hour film. What starts out as a tense plot thread kind of exhausts itself.

 

That, juxtaposed with the slower Canto Bight subplot and the false ending at the throne room, really does the film's pacing no favours.

[leeallen01 2,136]

People who defend a clear and obvious mistake or a factual piece of bad writing in a film, are hopeless individuals to talk to.

 

If you want to ignore all of the obvious problems with the film because it makes you feel better, then be my guest. But don't tell me they don't exist.

[Holko 9,535]

TLJ does have some flaws. Most of what you brought up is just nitpicking even I'm annoyed by. Star Wars is space fantasy, not scifi. If they say one ship is faster than the other, it bloody well is.

[Quintus 5,399]

9 minutes ago, Mattris said:

"Similarities" is not what John Williams did with Rey's Theme. For some reason unknown to me, you're not giving John Williams the credit for the cleverly integrated references that are factually present. So, by definition, I cannot be "wrong" about the contents of the music. 

 

 

No, it's also feasible you're simply overstretching, possibly out of blind unbridled fandom of John Williams. Anakin's theme taking inspiration from Vader's musical signature for its own sweet twist on the Imperial March is one thing, but resting your entire argument here on the fact that certain notes in a melody line up with others (IF one is inclined towards confirmation bias when analysing the structure of the music) is to my mind just a bit of elongated wish fulfilment. Quite harmless actually, until you start making accusations of purposeful dishonesty and all that petulant bollocks. I mean, don't you see how that might undermine your otherwise curious theories? 

 

There are definitely deliberate shades of existing themes present in newer material in the Star Wars scores, but the motivation and intent there is clearly tonal and poetic in nature rather than the simple basic ABC melodics of it - something which you seem to be unwisely fixated on here. 

[leeallen01 2,136]

 

 

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

What the hell is wrong with expanding the lore?

 

Please tell me you understand the different between expanding the lore and changing it?

 

Luke being able to force project is 'expanding the lore.'

 

Ships being able to hyperspace into a fleet and destroy it is 'changing the lore.'

 

One changes your perspective of the story, and the other damages it.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Ah Quint, you almost made it out, but the quagmire has claimed another victim.

[leeallen01 2,136]

 

2 minutes ago, Holko said:

TLJ does have some flaws. Most of what you brought up is just nitpicking even I'm annoyed by. Star Wars is space fantasy, not scifi. If they say one ship is faster than the other, it bloody well is.

 

The ENTIRE plot revolves around the chase. That is not nitpicking. It's the whole damn film.

[Holko 9,535]

How is a newly thought of maneuver even consideted lore?

[Score 770]

3 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 

I don't care about the 'in-film' science. But the convenience of two different sized and powered ships at maximum speed, both being identical in speed, is pathetic storytelling.

 

 

I am not taking a position in the debate, I was just saying "no" to a wrong statement. I am enjoying parts of this discussion, it's quite funny.

 

In any case, I think what is written here, https://www.the-editing-room.com/star-wars-last-jedi.html

 

is the most healthy way to look at these movies.

 

[Quintus 5,399]

3 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Ah Quint, you almost made it out, but the quagmire has claimed another victim.

 

[Chen G. 3,958]

Quote

No, it's also feasible you're simply overstretching, possibly out of blind unbridled fandom of John Williams. Anakin's themetaking inspiration from Vader's musical signature for its own sweet twist on the Imperial March is one thing, but resting your entire argument here on the fact that certain notes in a melody line up with others (IF one is inclined towards confirmationbias when analysing the structure of the music) is to my mind just a bit of elongated wish fulfilment.

 

I think its ignorant to the way in which Williams works, too. The Anakin example is really quite unusual in the maestro's body of work, because he was scoring a prequel. So, without watching a minute of the finished film, Williams knew the traejectory of the story and could compose with that in mind.

 

Williams doesn't read scripts. He just watches the finished film. He has no additional information to go on than you, me or @Mattris have.

[leeallen01 2,136]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

How is a newly thought of maneuver even consideted lore?

 

Okay, you don't understand.

 

I will try to explain...again, by asking one simple question; why didn't they hyperspace a huge unmanned ship into the Empire fleet in the OT, or even into the death star? Are you telling me that no one in the history of the galaxy has ever tried what Holdo did? 

 

It changes every battle ever done previously. You must understand this?

[Holko 9,535]

Because they're a tiny fucking splinter group who cannot afford to lose capital ships, if they even had them on Yavin, especially with no guarantee it would make a dent on something the size of the Death Star?

 

 

Why didn't people in the Dark Ages use electric lights? History books are terrible writing.

[leeallen01 2,136]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

Because they're a tiny fucking splinter group who cannot afford to lose capital ships, if they even had them on Yavin, especially with no guarantee it would make a dent on something the size of the Death Star?

 

 

Why didn't people in the Dark Ages use electric lights? History books are terrible writing.

 

Okay, you really don't understand. 

[Holko 9,535]

Explain to me, please, great Einstein, the minutiae of a cool Star Wars scene and its irreparable impact on the space fantasy franchise.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Just now, Holko said:

Explain to me, please, great Einstein, the minutiae of a cool Star Wars scene.

 

I have explained it enough. Clearly not for you, but if you don't understand by now, you never will. That's okay though. 

[Holko 9,535]

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean.

[Chen G. 3,958]

I think its neat. Its the first case of suicide in these films, I believe, and its as dramatic and striking as you could ever want.

 

Its just a pity that it isn't the actual end of the film. I remember sitting in the theater thinking: "wait, the trailers promised a sequence on a salt planet, surely they didn't cut it out?" When they revealed that they're going to go down to that planet, I sighed. We already had a huge climax which brought together three disparate plot threads, with twists and revealations galore. Leaves one too drained to fully enjoy another one.

 

Too much for one film, I say.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Just now, Chen G. said:

I think its neat. Its the first case of suicide in these films, and its as dramatic and striking as you could ever want.

 

Its just a pity that it isn't the actual end of the film.

 

It's a fantastic visual and shocking moment, that immediately after 2 seconds of after-thought, is a problem.

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its the first case of suicide in these films.

 

Vader...

[Mattris 416]

20 minutes ago, Quintus said:

No, it's also feasible you're simply overstretching... 

 

Not a chance. This is simple: John Williams included references to two relevant Star Wars themes, which book-end the mysterious new character's theme. Few have made this association, but that doesn't mean the association doesn't exist.

 

14 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

... Williams knew the traejectory of the story and could compose with that in mind.

 

Williams doesn't read scripts. He just watches the finished film. He has no additional information to go on than you, me or @Mattris have.

 

Why is it difficult to accept that JJ told Williams what to expect from Rey... and he composed her theme accordingly? That would explain this, simply.

Claiming that it's even remotely possible that John Williams unintentionally incorporated two relevant Star Wars themes into the new protagonist's theme is, quite honestly, absurd.

[leeallen01 2,136]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its the first case of suicide in these films

 

Also Obi Wan. The entire of Rogue One, and even Finn tried to commit suicide.

[Chen G. 3,958]

11 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Also Obi Wan.

 

You're right!

 

Still a decent moment, though.

 

16 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Why is it difficult to accept that JJ told Williams what to expect from Rey... and he composed her theme accordingly? That would explain this, simply.

 

Even if JJ had any inkling as to what Rey is to become (or be revealed to be) I doubt Williams will have bothered listening. Even while composing the prequel trilogy, when Williams could have turned to George Lucas (a personal friend of his, I might add) to know where the story was headed next, he didn't.

 

When Williams composed Duel of the Fates, Lucas expressed an interest in using it for the duel in the third film. Per Williams: "I don't quite understads what he means by that."

 

He had similar remarks of Across the Stars. He naturally understood that it was a love story which wasn't going to end well (he better had, given how thick the film lays it) and wrote it accordingly. He hadn't a clue how it would come about, though.

[Quintus 5,399]

21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I think its ignorant to the way in which Williams works, too. 

 

Moreover, Mattris' assertions could be construed as being a stark oversimplification of Williams' uncanny understanding of characters and narrative. We like to think, do we not, that there's much more sophistication to Williams' talent than just the simple act of using the same notes in order to evoke a sense or feeling that two things are linked somehow. Come on, he's far more devilishly subtle than that. In fact he's a fuckin' marvel when he flexes those particular compositional muscles, in the way that he does. 

[leeallen01 2,136]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

You're right!

 

Still a decent moment, though.

 

Yes, like I said, visually it was stunning. Most of the film is. Just a shame about the writing behind the visuals. 

 

Also, didn't Luke basically attempt to commit suicide in Cloud City, and conveniently found that lovely tube slide?

 

Hell, the entire Saga is filled with suicides come to think of it.

[Chen G. 3,958]

4 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

didn't Luke basically attempt to commit suicide in Cloud City

 

To this day I have no idea what that sequence was about, but the entire film is so good that it gets lost in the sweep of the film.

 

I do think The Last Jedi is often cleverly written and edited. I like that we cut back to the flashback three times, each with its own unreliable narrator, and each presented accordingly.

 

Unless you consider Obi-Wan's speech as the original Star Wars in the light of Empire Strikes Back (which you shouldn't), its the first implementation of an unreliable narrator in Star Wars.

[leeallen01 2,136]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

To this day I have no idea what that sequence was about, but the entire film is so good that it gets lost in the sweep of the film.

 

I do think The Last Jedi is often cleverly written and edited. I like that we cut back to the flashback three times, each with its own unreliable narrator, and each presented accordingly.

 

Unless you consider Obi-Wan's speech as the original Star Wars in the light of Empire Strikes Back (which you shouldn't), its the first implementation of an unreliable narrator in Star Wars.

 

I wish the films were set in the time of the flashbacks. That is a much more interesting story.

[Chen G. 3,958]

I like it.

 

Outside of one dream of Anakin's in Revenge of the Sith, the flashbacks and flashforwards in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi are the first time Star Wars used nonlinear storytelling devices.

 

While I don't think the sequel trilogy should ever have materialized, I do at least like that it takes Star Wars to the 21-century in terms of the style of the storytelling. Its also true, visually, of Abrams use of the long-take, of Johnson's use of slow motion, and of Edwards use of large-format digital cameras.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

@Mattris out of curiosity, what will your feeling be if you're not right; if Palpatine and Vader have no place in Episode IX, and those notes literally did mean nothing? Are you going to be willing to admit that you were just meandering about something you had no idea about, or just complain because the film didn't fit your exact expectations?

[Holko 9,535]

Take a wild guess.

[Quintus 5,399]

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

@Mattris out of curiosity, what will your feeling be if you're not right; if Palpatine and Vader have no place in Episode IX, and those notes literally did mean nothing? Are you going to be willing to admit that you were just meandering about something you had no idea about, or just complain because the film didn't fit your exact expectations?

 

He'll revile in the incontestable fact that some dastardly bastard lied through their teeth to Sir John Williams. Any other other possible reactions are beyond his capacity to perceive on the visible plane, like 4D.

[Demodex 557]

3 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

Are you telling me that no one in the history of the galaxy has ever tried what Holdo did? 

 

Before Holdo did it, did it ever occur to you that it was something anybody had done before?  Holdo is the first person to be desperate enough to do it.  It's not a plot hole or an example of bad writing.

 

 

And I still don't hear any reference to the Dark Side theme or Vader's theme in Rey's theme.

[leeallen01 2,136]

11 minutes ago, Demodex said:

Holdo is the first person to be desperate enough to do it.  It's not a plot hole or an example of bad writing.

 

Are you actually serious? Good god man, have some dignity. Have you seen any of the other Star Wars films? I seem to recall just a few desperate moments in those. 

[SteveMc 2,674]

4 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

Characters in the first order say in the film that their ship is smaller so we can't catch up. Yet all previous larger ships have had no problem catching a smaller one.

The bigger the ship, the bigger the engines.

Just a little babble.  I really have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

My god, that's a big ship.

[leeallen01 2,136]

22 minutes ago, SteveMc said:

The bigger the ship, the bigger the engines.

 

What's your point? That was my point... The first order have bigger ships, yet they say the rebels have smaller ships that are faster and more maneuverable, so they can't catch them. That makes no sense if you've seen every other Star Wars film...

[Chen G. 3,958]

I don't recall previous Star Wars films getting too technical about spaceships and cruising in space, so...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I don't recall previous Star Wars films getting too technical about spaceships and cruising in space, so...

 

That's something Star Trek does!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So who'd win between a Star Destroyer and a Borg cube?