What is the last piece of classical music you listened to?

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

46 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Serialism is a music that , in the words of it's practitioner, must avoid personal expression.

Only abstraction is permissible. Emotional content is forbidden.

Scores are meant to be analyzed, not enjoyed as as art.

No consideration is to be made for the LISTENING AUDIENCE.

 

Twelve tone music all sounds as if it is in a minor key and can only express negative emotions,  in purest form.

 

If it wasn't for Film music it would have died long ago

 

That seems pretty contradictory. Film music usually does convey emotions of some sort. And of course, twelve tone music by definition doesn't sound as if it was diatonic.

 

46 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Serialize and twelve tone are the same thing.

 

Not. According to Wikipedia:

Quote

It is commonly considered a form of serialism.

 

46 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Serialism is even more abstract

 

Another contradiction?

 

46 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

It is NOT the same as atonality

 

Nobody here claimed it was.

 

46 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Verklakte Hecht is accessible. Later works , not so much.

 

This doesn't sound entirely inaccessible to me:

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

The ultra-serialists , Boulez et. al disdained any personal expression .

Schoenberg did not promote those values.

He employed twelve- tone rows but wasn't a slave to it.

Unlike Messiaen, Webern, et. al

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

Just now, bruce marshall said:

The ultra-serialists , Boulez et. al disdained any personal expression .

 

Boulez was also an acclaimed conductor of composers like Wagner, Bruckner, and Mahler. I doubt he disdained personal expression as such.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Indeed. Loved his Jahrhundertring.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

If you think I'm going to engage in a debate of the merits of works by Boulez and company, you sir, are INSANE!

Talk amongst yourselves

If you think I'm going to engage in a debate of the merits of works by Boulez and company, you sir, are INSANE!

Talk amongst yourselves

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

4 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

If you think I'm going to engage in a debate of the merits of works by Boulez and company, you sir, are INSANE!

 

You already have!

 

4 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

If you think I'm going to engage in a debate of the merits of works by Boulez and company, you sir, are INSANE!

 

You already have!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Of course the real problem is not any particular piece of music or composer, but that in the 50s and 60s powerful elites (like Boulez and Babbitt and many others) functioned like an art mafia, ensuring that only atonal/serial works were taken seriously in "the academy."  It did a lot of damage, alienating contemporary music even further from general classical audiences.  It was a real shame for the young composers that came through the conservatories in that era.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

The only reason Shark hates serialism is because even he is unable to detect " flubs"!

😄😅😝😜😛

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

I prefer parallelism.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Of course the real problem is not any particular piece of music or composer, but that in the 50s and 60s powerful elites (like Boulez and Babbitt and many others) functioned like an art mafia, ensuring that only atonal/serial works were taken seriously in "the academy."  It did a lot of damage, alienating contemporary music even further from general classical audiences.  It was a real shame for the young composers that came through the conservatories in that era.

 

The degree to which words like "problem", "damage" and "shame"  apply here is surely very much dependent on how much one values the sort of music being promoted by the likes of Boulez.

 

Many young composers benefitted from the advocacy of these "elites"!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

8 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Yeah the whole Schoenbergian "school" is maybe second to Nazism as Europe's greatest mistake of the 20th century.

That's quite a statement considering Europe also gave rise to 😅😝😜😰 prog- rock!

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

Webern's Symphony is exquisite.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I'd rather listen to a recording of Stravinsky's farts.  But then, his were quite famous for their musicality.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

What about Stravinsky's serial music?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I'm not aware that he wrote any?  It's a shame how he retired from composing as soon as The Rake's Progress premiered.  He had so many years left that could've been filled with worthy music!

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

You're in for a real treat!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Stravinsky , unfortunately, turned to serialism in his later years.

Still, it's ' better ' than the Webern/Babbit crap

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Holst, the planets. Now I know why I didn't like this before, because JW wasn't conducting it!

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

JW's recording is indeed good.

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

JW's recording is indeed good.

 

It's good, as is Herrmann's. There are many good recordings of The Planets. There are also at least a few great ones.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

There are also at least a few great ones.

 

Which is your favourite, apart from Dutoit's?

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Which is your favourite, apart from Dutoit's?

 

Karajan (the Berlin one), and Gardiner. The latter took a bit (not much) getting used to, because it's a very non-nonsense reading, but it has now become my go to version. It also sounds amazing.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

4 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Karajan (the Berlin one), and Gardiner. The latter took a bit (not much) getting used to, because it's a very non-nonsense reading, but it has now become my go to version. It also sounds amazing.

 

I'll check out the Gardiner.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

9 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Karajan (the Berlin one), and Gardiner. The latter took a bit (not much) getting used to, because it's a very non-nonsense reading, but it has now become my go to version. It also sounds amazing.

Gosh I have to admit that I seem to remember absolutely loathing the Karajan version. Maybe I should revisit it?! Although perhaps I have a different version? I know he recorded quite a few things a number of times.

[LSH 969]

ADIEMUS - KARL JENKINS

 

Often tossed aside as a bit of modernist trash in certain circles but I have to admit being quite partial to it (and some the of the 'sequels').

 

It's certainly influenced the film world. The ethnic 'but not tied to a region' vocals has been a staple insert within many a score. I'm looking at you Klaus Badelt...!

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

6 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Gosh I have to admit that I seem to remember absolutely loathing the Karajan version. Maybe I should revisit it?! Although perhaps I have a different version? I know he recorded quite a few things a number of times.

 

There's two. One with the Wiener Philharmoniker from the early 60s, when the work was still mostly ignored on the European mainland and Karajan was one of those helping to establish it), and one with the Berliner from the early 80s. Interestingly, some people prefer one and some the other, but I find the playing by the old Wiener horribly sloppy (it very much sounds to me like they simply didn't want to play it in the first place). The Berliner isn't always entirely clean, but it has a good "weight", and the conducting has a certain lushness that works very well for me. The Gardiner by contrast is super precise in both performance and acoustics, and that's great as well.

 

I got the Gardiner because it was recommended to me a couple of times for those qualities, and on the first and second listen I found it too straightforward, but I quickly warmed up to it, and now I love it.

 

…speaking of The Planets, how do the various Boult recordings compare? I've got his 1966 version on a box set and never found it particularly noteworthy, but I think it's not necessarily the recommended one among his various versions.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

9 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

It's good, as is Herrmann's. There are many good recordings of The Planets. There are also at least a few great ones.

 

[Tom 4,660]

On 17/03/2022 at 2:25 PM, Disco Stu said:

Of course the real problem is not any particular piece of music or composer, but that in the 50s and 60s powerful elites (like Boulez and Babbitt and many others) functioned like an art mafia, ensuring that only atonal/serial works were taken seriously in "the academy."  It did a lot of damage, alienating contemporary music even further from general classical audiences.  It was a real shame for the young composers that came through the conservatories in that era.

Who knows what happens behind the scenes, but it is a true testament to Williams and Spielberg (and others) who are so generous toward the upcoming artists.  Heck, even though little comments here and there would suggest Williams doesn't care for the direction of modern film scoring, he never throws any composers under the bus.  An artist, if an ego must be had, should have it in relation to their own work but not that of others.  

[JTN 2,025]

15 hours ago, Tom said:

Who knows what happens behind the scenes, but it is a true testament to Williams and Spielberg (and others) who are so generous toward the upcoming artists.  Heck, even though little comments here and there would suggest Williams doesn't care for the direction of modern film scoring, he never throws any composers under the bus.  An artist, if an ego must be had, should have it in relation to their own work but not that of others.  

Williams said this at the Society of Composers & Lyricists' annual Oscar music reception in 2020: 

"“the art and craft of doing music for film is still being developed. New approaches, new sound sources, new ways of managing the orchestra, are a very healthy thing. We have a lot to look forward to, and I’d like to be here 50 years from now to see what happens.”

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I think JW ' plagiarized' MY comments!😅😁

 

 

I think I'll repost that quote over at the INTRADA Facebook page.

All they do is complain about modern scores!

[Holko 9,526]

Relistened to Sibelius' Kullervo after rereading Children of Húrin, I guess we're not too likely to get something that much closer to a score for that beautiful dark story anytime soon. Loved it again!

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

29 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Ooh this is on my presto wish list. Any good? I have several versions of the Sibelius version.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

It's good. Bought it from Europadisc.

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

Kullervo op. 15? What's that, a suite condensation of the symphony?

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Count the number of composers on the cover.

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

Ah. It's a very small thumbnail.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Carl Orff, de tempore something something. Very intrigueing. Maybe a bit repetitive at times, but I'm really impressed.

[publicist 4,643]

 

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Bach, mass in B. Stunningly original concept, especially because the guy hardly wrote religious stuff... Damn you Karajan for including this in your box set.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

For anyone in and around London, the music and video exchange in Notting Hill is due to have a big new selection of classical albums out on display next week. They had a flood in their basement where all the classical music was sold and it’s still closed bht glad they are managing to get back on track. Even from their limited selection I still managed to just buy half a dozen albums… ugh I have no willpower. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

Good to hear they've managed to… weather the water. I have some fine CDs from that basement in my collection.

 

(Why do I always visit used CD stores abroad, but never here in Vienna?)

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

4 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Good to hear they've managed to… weather the water. I have some fine CDs from that basement in my collection.

 

(Why do I always visit used CD stores abroad, but never here in Vienna?)

Yes indeed and same. I think one time I bought over 20 CDs, many of which were only a pound or so. I have got a few soundtracks there but I’m at the  stage where I more or less own everything that’s been released that I might want stage but for classical there always seems to be something else to explore. Maybe it’s safer you don’t explore your local used CD shops, your wallet won’t thank you!

 

If I’m visiting London for a long weekend I usually try and pop in there. I don’t actually think there are any other especially interesting second hand shops in london for classical or soundtracks. A couple in Manchester though.

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

9 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

but I’m at the  stage where I more or less own everything that’s been released that I might want stage but for classical there always seems to be something else to explore.

 

Yes indeed and same.

 

9 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Maybe it’s safer you don’t explore your local used CD shops, your wallet won’t thank you!

 

Good point.

 

9 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

If I’m visiting London for a long weekend I usually try and pop in there. I don’t actually think there are any other especially interesting second hand shops in london for classical or soundtracks. A couple in Manchester though.

 

Interesting. I guess I was lucky to find it - entirely by accident when I stayed at a hotel in the area and it just caught my eye while walking along Notting Hill Gate with @ChrisAfonso. There's (or was at least) a nice breakfast place on a corner close by as well.

 

Similar situation in NYC, where @crocodile and I found an excellent used music and film store just before going back to the airport, and when we left and it was raining, we found a find Japanese restaurant right next door.

 

Perhaps there's a correlation between used CDs and food.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

7 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Interesting. I guess I was lucky to find it - entirely by accident when I stayed at a hotel in the area and it just caught my eye while walking along Notting Hill Gate with @ChrisAfonso. There's (or was at least) a nice breakfast place on a corner close by as well.

 

Similar situation in NYC, where @crocodile and I found an excellent used music and film store just before going back to the airport, and when we left and it was raining, we found a find Japanese restaurant right next door.

 

Perhaps there's a correlation between used CDs and food.

Well I love to eat and cook too so maybe haha. There’s lots of nice places round Notting Hill for sure. I do miss there being so many great second hand cd shops. In the U.K., Oxfam book shops often have a good classical selection but a lot of the second hand shops have closed down. Music and Video Exchange at Notting Hill used to have a separate unit for classical music, soundtracks and dvds but has downsized considerably. Still a pretty good choice though and lots of boxed sets. I had to stop myself buying the boxes set of Villa-Lobos’ symphonies as I own most if not all of them already but a smart boxed set is always so enticing! And it was only £13. 

[ChrisAfonso 186]

6 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Perhaps there's a correlation between used CDs and food.

 

Well, combing endless shelves of moderately-sorted media in cramped basements makes one hungry...

 

Great to hear it's going again, that store always was one of the fixed points of each "recent" London trip (along with Forbidden Planet, and tkts for some bargain hunting). Hopefully again soon.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Something by Arnold Schoenberg. So that's expressionism? More like garbage.

[KK 3,307]

The TSO had the world premiere of Philip Glass' new Symphony No. 13 "Truth In Our Time" and it was...a big dud. Tired, anemic arpeggios chugging along all-too-familiar harmony, with limp form/structure to sustain it. Meh.

 

The rest of the program was good though, featuring Shostakovich and Korngold's violin concerto, whose sublime second movement saved the night:

 

 

 

It was also nice hearing where Williams drew a lot of his harmonic and idiomatic writing from in the concerto.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

It randomly occurred to me that the orchestration for Danny Elfman's percussion concerto is based on that for Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, albeit with a much expanded percussion section for the Elfman concerto. One of my favourite works by Bartok and so was a good excuse to give it a listen and still love it. It's striking how much it's more rooted in the strings with the rest more decorative than equal partners as in the Elfman work. I guess when Bartok wrote it, percussion had historically been used much more sparingly whereas now we're used to big percussion sections, especially through film scoring.

 

I was also inspired to give Michael Torke's Percussion Concerto another listen having (entirely by chance) been in Edinburgh for the premiere performance of that many years ago and which also featured Colin Currie as the soloist. Much though I generally like Torke, this felt rather laboured. There's a lot going on but within each movement, the level of intensity is quite samey throughout so it gets quite tiring. Elfman's has much more ebb and flow to it. It also doesn't help that the percussion part just kinda bounces along over the top. There's little engaging interplay or give and take between soloist and orchestra so it almost feels like it's just dolloped on top. The orchestra (RSNO, who are generally pretty decent, if not quite top flight) feel a bit lethargic, but with a trumpet part in one movement that is lots of repeated notes following the percussion, it's no wonder the playing feels a bit tired in places. Torke's Piano Concerto (Manhattan Bridges) is much better.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,533]

Anything by Bartok, is bella.

See what I did, there?