"Controversial" Doyle interview a stab at Williams

[Sandor 797]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-...1736237,00.html

Old news right?

If not; note his statements on the current state of film music. A stab at Williams?

EDIT - I'm trying to add a '?' to the topic title, because it's a question of course.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I don't think everytime people mention "film music" they are referring of John Williams. However, our Maestro has always been guilty of underestimating originality. But it's not like that's always a negative thing.

[Sandor 797]

Notice Doyle's Top 5 scores? There's Goldsmith, Thomas Newman, ... no John Williams...

[Elmo Lewis 6]

How purposeful of him.

[Justin 2]

How is Fantasia a score?

Justin

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I don't get the inclusion of Fantasia as a score either. I think it's more about how he liked how the music and visuals correspond so well.

Also, I fail to see how this is aimed at Williams. He talks about film music students today, and people writing film music with no musical background otherwise. That's hardly a discription of Williams, is it?

[JMan 0]

Im sorry to say this but....what an idiot. I think its a given that he is stabbing at WIlliams....for Gods sake he is doing the next Potter film. He took John Williams' place in the franchise. His music will compare nothing to Williams....sorry.

[Magnus 0]

Patrick Doyle actually has a pretty good feel for the orchestra and movie scoring overall... I'd take his work anyday over Howard Shore anyway...

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I don't see a stab at Williams. Anyway, Doyle's right. More and more movies come with Zimmer/Horner clone scores these days. Cheers to Doyle.

Marian - who also doesn't consider it a sin not to have a Williams score in your top five, especially when there's a Goldsmith and a Herrmann there.

The Great Escape (Elmer Bernstein)

[Olivier 5]

Silly. Paranoid fanboishly sily-- no offense .

So he didn't quote a Williams score, so what? He probably just said what popped into his head at the moment. He may also have wanted to answer something else than the usual "Star Wars", "Superman", ... He may have been thinking of Goldsmith lately (when exactly was the interview conducted?). He may have given Williams as an example and not Goldsmith in another interview w're not aware of.

Hundreds of possibilities.

Surmising he hates Williams' music from so little is silly.

He didn't name North, Alfred Newman, Max Steiner, Jerome Moross, Elmer Bernstein, John Barry, and many other truly great composers either. That doesn't mean a thing.

You're not merely reading far too much in a mere statement; you're completely rewriting it.

I already know what some "reviews" of Doyle's HP score will say: atrocious, an abomination, the worst score ever written in the story of the universe, an insult to John Williams' genius, ..; :roll:

[orrakul 0]

I didn't think that this applied to JW because JW doesn't recycle scores; my fist impression was that Doyle was talking about James Horner...

[Morn 8]

Doesn't make any rational sense, why does he think it is necessary to watch theatre plays to compose film scores?

Anyway, he does have a point, rubbish goes in rubbish goes out, there is too much low quality film music out there.

[Adam 1]

The theater play comment just seems like he's saying that musicians aren't coming into the business with a sufficient level of knowledge of the musical tradition though I don't think it makes sense to say specifically this or that is necessary to know, if he meant that literally.

I like his comments about the institutional problems of film scoring. Hollywood, in all aspects, isn’t generally looking for people trying to break new ground. They’re constantly trying to recreate the success of something else. That extends to music which, as he says, is heavily influenced by temp-tracks. Its also true that film scoring has become a lot more popular and the level of compositional ability isn’t as high as it should be among people trying to break into the industry. I’ve heard actors make similar comments about the way the culture of Hollywood and celebrity has contributed to lots of people aspiring to fame more than any sense of what the craft is about.

Though I agree with what he says to a large extent and think he’s one of the best from a musical point of view, its can sound self-serving for him to be the one making these observations. As good as JW is, he seems to be the type to go in the opposite direction, sometimes too far to the point of false modesty. But I think JW must recognize that in his position, its better to let one’s music do the talking, so to speak, and let other people be the judge.

- Adam

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

It's just like the mid-70s. Too many Lalo Schifrins. Time for a new hope.

[Morn 8]

The theater play comment just seems like he's saying that musicians aren't coming into the business with a sufficient level of knowledge of the musical tradition though I don't think it makes sense to say specifically this or that is necessary to know, if he meant that literally.  

There has been plenty of high quality film music, it's not necessary to listen to other genres to get a good knowledge of the musical traditions I think. Problem is many people aren't willing to dig that deep.

With regards with what you say about modesty, I think it's good that someone like Doyle is trying to voice the problem, he does have a reputation and certain authority to say such things due to the fact that he's quite a good composer.

[Adam 1]

Musicians can benefit from all sorts of traditions but I think each person has to find their own way as opposed to trying to prescribe a certain path but, again, on a general level his point is probably correct.

His comments can be both correct and self-serving - I'm thinking of his comments against other composers mostly, not so much the problems of temp tracks. I don't really mind but I've witnessed this with other composers as well and it can come across as too self-righteous or like competitive vanity. And its done in a general way where he doesn't have to name names but nonetheless indicts a broad swath of people so that contributes to that impression I think. Having said that, you're right about him being very good musically so he can get away with it better than most could.

- Adam

[King Mark 3,631]

If it means anything,both movies scored traditionnaly by John Williams,WotW and RotS,are at the top of the box office by far this year,all the movies scored MV style sort of dissapointed or tanked.Maybe someone will notice that a good score is important to a film success.

K.M.

[Morn 8]

Ohh there have been successful MV style films.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

Yeah...there was that one movie with the guy from Master and Commander. It was about Rome or something.

[Hitch 57]

Place your bets now, Ladies and Gentlemen. Excellent odds given here at at Universal Betting Shop on Patrick Doyle's score being rejected by the WB top brass (hehehe) and replaced by John Williams (boooooo). Now I'd buy that for a dollar!!!!

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

KM was speaking of this year. Maybe the MV sound has lost it's its touch...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Yay, no more crappy "duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnn ... duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnn."

[Morlock 11]

If it means anything,both movies scored traditionnaly by John Williams,WotW and RotS,are at the top of the box office by far this year,all the movies scored MV style sort of dissapointed or tanked.Maybe someone will notice that a good score is important to a film success.

K.M.

Except for Batman Begins, which was got the better reviews than both those movies. But your point stands. Except for Zimmer and JNH, the best movies this year have so far been scored by Williams, Elfman, Isham and Debney/Rodriguez/Revell, a definate improvement on your usual crop of summer films. And even the one successful movie that has a pure MV score, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, has a relatively good one. I always thought people worried too much about MV. Even Kingdom of Heaven tanked, and that had a very good score by a guy who at this point is only marginally part of MV. Madagascar did well, but it didn't have very much score, and the score it has was not MV style.

[Olivier 5]

Regarding theater, I think what he meant is that composers shouldn't just be technicians that know how to string together a bunch of notes.

The score is supposed to convey meaning, emotion, to emphasize and enhance what the movie cannot convey with images and dialogue alone.

Therefore, as I understand his remark, composers should not "merely" study composition, but literature and drama as well, be cultivated, read about human nature and study it for themselves through literature, see how meaning and emotion can be conveyed-- not just focus on their current scoring job, but learn from literature, drama, ...

One thing I forgot: and what if he really didn't rate John Williams among his favorite (film) composers ever? So what? So long as he doesn't trash him unfairly, he can very well prefer playing rap at home than Williams' latest score. That doesn't make him unworthy of scoring a franchise Williams has worked on, nor an enemy.

This is just extreme fanboyism (stressing the "fan" as in "fanaticism")--

"Aaaaaarg! He hasn't named his daughter John even though she was born in February! This is an obvious stab at John Williams!" :roll:

[mahler3 478]

I had the good fortune to meet Patrick Doyle a few years ago at a film festival and he respects and admires Williams enormously so I very much doubt his comments pertain to Williams at all. He did however state his indifference towards James Horner due to Horner storming out of the '96 Oscar ceremony the year he lost for 'Braveheart' & 'Apollo 13'. Doyle was sitting a couple of seats down from him on the night (he was nominated for 'Sense & Sensibility' that year). Make of that what you will!

[Hitch 57]

Jimmy had a sudden urge to go to the John.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I had the good fortune to meet Patrick Doyle a few years ago at a film festival and he respects and admires Williams enormously so I very much doubt his comments pertain to Williams at all. He did however state his indifference towards James Horner due to Horner storming out of the '96 Oscar ceremony the year he lost for 'Braveheart' & 'Apollo 13'. Doyle was sitting a couple of seats down from him on the night (he was nominated for 'Sense & Sensibility' that year). Make of that what you will!  

He he he...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Doyle forgetting to mention Williams isn't as bad as James Horner stating he'd never heard of Jerry Goldsmith.

[TownerFan 4,983]

From Veritaserum.com:

Patrick Doyle written 'zillions of themes' for GOF  

Posted by Matthew on 08-18-05 @ 9:52 PM - 20 comments  

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire composer Patrick Doyle discussed the film at length in an interview published today with The Evening Times. He said, "Nothing has been a breeze. Everything demands the most of you. You have to be at the top of your game. It's an enormous presence, the biggest thing I have ever been involved in, and you feel the enormity of it all."

He said that he was "thrilled to be asked" to score the film and that "it certainly went down a storm in my house.

"I read the script before they started shooting. My involvement has gone on for a year, and I've written zillions of themes for it....People who have read the book will know that it is very dense in terms of its storyline, and all of the imagery is very big."

I suspect Doyle will not use many of the Williams' themes from the previous movies. Probably he will limit himself to "Hedwig's Theme", since that theme is now very much tied with the Potter mythology. However, I'm eager to hear this score!

UPDATE: Here you find the complete piece from the Evening Standard.co.uk. Very interesting.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Horner, Rosenman, Eidelman and McCarthy never used Goldsmith's original Trek themes (aside from tiny statements of Alexander Courage's TV motif), so it doesn't surprise me Doyle might not use Williams' original Potter themes very much.

[Morlock 11]

From Veritaserum.com:

Patrick Doyle written 'zillions of themes' for GOF  

Posted by Matthew on 08-18-05 @ 9:52 PM - 20 comments  

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire composer Patrick Doyle discussed the film at length in an interview published today with The Evening Times. He said, "Nothing has been a breeze. Everything demands the most of you. You have to be at the top of your game. It's an enormous presence, the biggest thing I have ever been involved in, and you feel the enormity of it all."

He said that he was "thrilled to be asked" to score the film and that "it certainly went down a storm in my house.

"I read the script before they started shooting. My involvement has gone on for a year, and I've written zillions of themes for it....People who have read the book will know that it is very dense in terms of its storyline, and all of the imagery is very big."

I suspect Doyle will not use many of the Williams' themes from the previous movies. Probably he will limit himself to "Hedwig's Theme", since that theme is now very much tied with the Potter mythology. However, I'm eager to hear this score!

UPDATE: Here you find the complete piece from the Evening Standard.co.uk. Very interesting.

Both exciting and dissapointing. Doyle writing a zillion themes is never a bad thing, but I was rather hoping to hear his take of JW's themes. Oh well, either way it would have been too much JW or not enough. I can only hope he keeps the main theme. Hopefully, there'll be quotes of the JW themes, but I'm nto holding my breath.

[King Mark 3,631]

He says it's his "big break",I doubt he would use JW's themes.He probably worked very hard on the score though.

K.M.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

What a let down...

Come on, even James bond theme is still being used!

But anyway, even if Williams music is used, Doyle wouldnt want it to be released in CD. So we will not have officially his arrangements...

[Lurker 5]

This was not a stab at Williams. Just more paranoia from Roald, who still thinks Williams will not be scoring Munich.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I think Roald is the 'Mulder' of Jwfan.net

[Sandor 797]

Paranoid or not, I posted back in early 2004 that Williams would not score GOF and people called me paranoid, crazy, etc. And look how it turned out: Williams is NOT scoring GOF.

And I was ASKING if the article was a stab at Williams. I was never stating is as FACT. Do you guys even read???

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Paranoid or not, I posted back in early 2004 that Williams would not score GOF and people called me paranoid, crazy, etc. And look how it turned out: Williams is NOT scoring GOF.  

And I was ASKING if the article was a stab at Williams. I was never stating is as FACT. Do you guys even read???

With your 500 paranoid ravings per year, at least one of them was bound to come true.

[Sandor 797]

Uuhh.. and I was actually lying about that one. NOT ONE of my ravings has become reality. And to honest; I'm happy about it! I don't mind being the dork on this board.

But I did predict that Doyle would pull a Batman Forever on GOF!

[Erik Woods 555]

I'd be happy if I only hear Williams' Hedwig's Theme once... during the main title. After that, Doyle can do whatever he wants. But hearing Williams' theme at the beginning of the film will keep the continuity of the four pictures. Remember, Williams rarely used any of his existing themes in Azkaban.

I can't wait to hear what Doyle comes up with.

-Erik-

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Or he could pull a James Horner like with Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. I'd ask you to be positive, but every board needs at least one pessimist.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But I did predict that Doyle would pull a Batman Forever on GOF!

A whhhaaaat?

[Sandor 797]

A whhhaaaat?

A Batman Forever.

The third in a succesful series. Elfan had composed a VERY IDENTIFIABLE theme for the first two installments. Most people assumed Goldenthal would at least retain the main theme. But he didn't. He wanted to write HIS OWN BATMAN THEME. He did. Did Warner Bros. object? No. GoF is also Warner. Will they object this time? Probably not. Doyle will want to write his own Harry Potter theme. He will.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I wonder if the James Horner replacement score'll be any good.

Nah.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And will that be better or worse then a Jurassic Park III situation?

We have 3 scores with that theme, so if Doyle wants to compose something completely new, I don't mind.

[Sandor 797]

I would like it if he would at least retain Hedwig's Theme at the beginning. Probably an older recording of Williams will be used for it. Doyle's music will be ALL new. No Fawkes the Phoenix or anything.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Fawkes The Phoenix is a great album track, but the theme can only be heard twice in the film, I think.

So it's not important to the franscise at all.

I think Hedwig's Theme may be used, but I doubt they will do a cut and paste.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

The third in a succesful series. Elfan had composed a VERY IDENTIFIABLE theme for the first two installments. Most people assumed Goldenthal would at least retain the main theme. But he didn't. He wanted to write HIS OWN BATMAN THEME. He did.

And he did write the best of all Batman scores in the process (I'm not drawing parallels to the Potter situation here).

Doyle writing tons of themes sounds promising. He might use Hedwig or not, but I never saw him basing the entire score on Williams' themes; I can't imagine Doyle's style working with Williams' themes for more than a few moments. I'm also very happy to hear that he kept up his usual practice of getting involved very early; perhaps we'll hear some original Doyle source music during the Yule ball after all.

Marian - excited.

The Hallelujah Trail (Elmer Bernstein)

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Hmm, sounds promising. I'll be very surprised if Hedwig's Theme isn't at least quoted in the opening. But besides that, I'm fine with all original material. Although I would definitely like to hear Fawkes for the graveyard scene. But I'm 99% sure that won't happen.

Ray Barnsbury

[Jeshopk 8]

“If they are not going to the theatre and not watching actors, how can they bring anything to the table?” Says doyle.

That's just ridiculous.

And...Mulan? I mean, it is an OK score for Jerry, but if he's going to complain about composers recycling their own material, I can hardly see why he would be impressed by Mulan.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm excited from that article. There aren't many themes that really need to be brought back for GoF, so I hope Doyle has taken the mammoth task with minimal reliance on Williams' themes. I'd dearly love to hear Voldemort and Fawkes' themes for their brief appearences, but I'd understand if they didn't appear at all. Interesting that he's doing Eragon next year too (it's a fairly popular book for kids here in Australia, and an ex-Australian soapie heartthrob is apparenty in the cast... Oh goodie...).