Lost

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I couldn't agree more. My biggest bug with this otherwise brilliant episode was that it didn't answer the question of "why are these guys dying now? What have they achieved by being there thoroughout the season?" All the time invested in them in the past few weeks has not taken them anywhere, either narratively speaking or dramatically speaking.

What was Locke's purpose? Why did he die there? What did he achieve throughout the series?

If you're waiting for that answer, what makes you think the rest of the main cast won't get an answer?

And if they don't...go back to Jacob's frankness with Ricardus: "They're all dead." Move along.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well we're not going to get most of the answers we've been looking for or expecting.

I couldn't marry you Mark.

I know it wouldn't work, I don't like sausage.

[Red 75]

Wow! Check out this second clip from next week's episode!

Man I can't wait for next week!

That is clearly young Jacob and MIB.

I couldn't agree more. My biggest bug with this otherwise brilliant episode was that it didn't answer the question of "why are these guys dying now? What have they achieved by being there thoroughout the season?" All the time invested in them in the past few weeks has not taken them anywhere, either narratively speaking or dramatically speaking.

I suspect that question will be answered since the title of episode 6x17 is literally "What They Died For".

[Jay 37,374]

You should edit your post; Joe for whatever reason doesn't like to know upcoming episodes titles.

[Datameister 2,044]

Woowwwwwwwww. What a great episode! I really loved it! Unfortunately, I accidentally stumbled across a spoiler on YouTube about Sun and Jin's death, but I didn't know how it would happen, nor that Sayid and possibly Lapidus would be going with them. There were just so many great moments in the episode as a whole - the MIB just striding grimly into the gunfire, Jack's line to him about Locke, all the stuff in the sub, etc. I can't wait to re-watch the episode...it was definitely one of my favorites from this season. And I saw just a little bit of one of the clips from next week's episode...wish I hadn't, but it certainly got me excited for what is sure to be an awesome barrage of answers!

[Jay 37,374]

Same thing happened to me! I was waiting for my GF to get ready to watch, so I was browsing facebook on my iphone. BAM someone's status mentioned Jin and Sun dying. Grrrrr

I need to rewatch it as well; The viewing conditions at her house suck - smaller TV, glare on the screen, tiny tv speakers. gotta watch it again at my place on my big tv with the 5.1 sound on

Joe, I love your new "location"

[Datameister 2,044]

It's so nice to see the MIB's true colors, too. I like him much better as a real bad guy than as this weird Locke-alike who claims to want to help everyone leave.

EDIT: Well, when I discovered exactly how close the Maestro's house is, I couldn't help put it in there! I think I might finally get around to going for a nice stroll through his neighborhood this weekend...

[Jay 37,374]

Yes, while I did enjoy the ambiguity all season of "well maybe MIB is good and Jacob is the bad one, its possible" - I like that they more or less definitely revealed that MIB is the bad guy and wants to kill all the candidates so he can leave the island. He used Ben to kill Jacob; He used Sawyer to kill Lapidus, Sayid, and the Kwons. I'm very curious to see what his plan is for killing Jack, Hurley, and Sawyer.

I'm also really curious what is up with Kate. I think that either:

1. Jacob crossed her name off because she's not a candidate any more, and she doesn't really matter.

or

2. Jacob crossed her name off to trick the MIB; She's actually the most important one. So MIB won't bother killing her, and then when he tries to leave he won't be able to, maybe she'll be able to kill him, etc.

[Olivier 5]

The Candidate worked as a double-meaning, I thought. There's of course the candidates for Jacob, our survivors; and then there's the real John Locke, who Jack said was a "candidate for a new procedure."

Right, thanks; it had slipped out of my mind.

As for how the Smoke will leave now and why they were able to die, it's all in Jack's explanation at the end. If Sawyer didn't remove the pins, they would have been fine. But the Smoke made it so they would kill each other, because he is bound by the rules and can't actually do it himself. He also needs all of the candidates dead in order to leave. It makes sense, he needed to kill Jacob, and now he needs to kill his possible replacements. That way, nothing stands between him and freedom.

My question was more practical, actually: how will he get away? is there another way we do not know about yet?

By the way, can I just say that the most powerful moment of the episode for me, was not anyone's death.

But instead the moment Jack turns around to Smocke and says "John Locke told me I needed to stay!" was one of those highlights of the entire show for me. It's such a little moment, you blink and miss it, but it was just fantastic, it made me cheer and brought a smile to my face.

Very good one; now I seem to remember another of that kind, cannot recall it exactly.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Big, emotional episode. I couldn't hold back tears during the pivotal death scene. If this is an indication about how emotional the last episodes will be, then I need a huge pack of Kleenex beside me

The writing continues to be absolutely damn good. The whole episode was beautifully constructed and paced. I had only one very minor quibble: the way Sawyer wanted to get rid of the MIB. So, this guy is actually a god-like entity and you want to beat his ass by pulling him in the water? Well... Of course, it could have been done on purpose because Sawyer is a character who always acts in a very impulsive way, but the solution seemed a bit stretched to me.

As for Sun and Jin speaking in English during the last moments, yes, it was quite inconsequential, but I think it was done mainly for clarity reasons toward the general audience (although I don't know how much of the general audience still watch the show).

Why did they go to the plane,if "locke" knew it would be trapped. And how could they possibly make it fly again,surely the landing gear was damaged .Also it's stuck in the trees and the wings are bent

The whole airplane thing was clearly a setup made by FLocke himself to get the C4. He knew Widmore was stuffing the plane with explosive, so he got there to obtain it. His real masterplan was to kill the Losties on the sub, I guess.

As for how the Smoke will leave now and why they were able to die, it's all in Jack's explanation at the end. If Sawyer didn't remove the pins, they would have been fine. But the Smoke made it so they would kill each other, because he is bound by the rules and can't actually do it himself. He also needs all of the candidates dead in order to leave. It makes sense, he needed to kill Jacob, and now he needs to kill his possible replacements. That way, nothing stands between him and freedom.

The MIB can't kill the Losties as it's forbidden by the "rules". He need the Losties to kill themselves each other, as Jack said. But he need to kill them as simultaneously as he can, because the last one standing will automatically take Jacob's place. Larisa Aleksandrovna already summed it up very nicely in her blog a couple of months ago. Here's an excerpt (read all the post if you can however, it's very well written):

How does the chosen candidate actually replace Jacob?

Well, if you are replacing the life protector, then it would follow that you must live. If you are replacing the death-giver, it would follow that you must kill.

Now we know why MIB/Flocke needs all of the candidates gathered together. I could not understand why. After all, he wants off the island and now with Jacob dead, he can leave, right? Wrong. We now know that someone will always replace Jacob and MIB states that he will kill all of those replacements as well.

So, in order to leave the island, MIB must not only kill Jacob (rather, have him killed), he must also kill (rather, have them killed) all of the candidates. But there is a kicker. Jacob has stated that there will be a candidate/replacement should MIB kill him. What if you have six replacements on the island at the same time? If you manage to kill five, then the last one standing - the last one left alive - will automatically assume Jacob's role. That is how it happens. One simply has to remain alive and be the last one to remain alive in order to replace Jacob.

So why is MIB/Flocke not running off the island and instead gathering everyone in the forest? Because he is gathering all of the candidates primarily. Everyone else is just backdrop for the ruse. He has no intention of flying anyone off the island. He simply has to kill (rather, have someone kill) all of the candidates and he will be set free.

But, he must kill them at the same time or at least leave two to die together. Why?

If just one candidate escapes the killing, that person will automatically assume Jacob's role and all of the powers that go with it, thereby making it impossible for MIB to leave the island. They must simply live, be the last one standing.

In order for him to leave the island, Jacob and all of the candidates must die as we know. Yet he cannot have them killed one by one, because the last one left alive automatically "lives" to become the new Jacob. He can, however, have them killed one by one until there are only two left. Those two in turn must be killed together so that neither can "assume" Jacob's role.

The last candidate to remain alive is the person who becomes the new Jacob. It is not who Jacob chooses. It is who fate chooses.

And so it goes, I believe, that the two left will require one to protect the other. The one who protects the other from MIB by killing him unwittingly damns himself/herself to take his place. While the person he/she was protecting is left to remain alive and therefor, to assume Jacob's role.

So the way someone becomes the new MIB (and there must be a new MIB, balance and such) is by killing the current MIB. And as I noted before, very similar to the novel On a Pale Horse by Piers Anthony.

I should also emphasize again that MIB cannot kill the candidates himself. So now we understand why he is wasting his time turning Sayid and Claire into zombies. They will have to do the killing for him. Unless Ben is up for yet another round that is.

Sadly, the only way for Jacob to have a replacement is for every Lostie save for one to die. And this is likely what we will see happen. My belief is that the last three standing will be Sawyer, Jack, and Desmond.

I think she's absolutely spot-on. You can read another interesting post here.

Giacchino's score was particularly strong in this episode. Can't wait to hear what he'll do with the series finale.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Same thing happened to me! I was waiting for my GF to get ready to watch, so I was browsing facebook on my iphone. BAM someone's status mentioned Jin and Sun dying. Grrrrr

Same thing happened to my brother when he got home from work. He was pretty angry, like hurt someone angry lol.

[Datameister 2,044]

I find all the reactions to the deaths interesting. Personally, I was less perturbed by the three or four main character deaths than I've been by other single character deaths in other shows lately. I've been watching Prison Break and this season of 24 and so forth, and all the deaths are getting to me more than this week's Lost did. Maybe it's because the characters are still alive in the alternate timeline, or because we're so close to the end anyway, or simply because the rest of the episode was so good...or some combination of all the above. I guess it just felt to me like the deaths were totally necessary to make it clear exactly how bad the MIB is, and to continue the downward spiral of the original timeline. I'm thinking the timelines have to get merged into the alternate timeline in the end. Things are getting better and better there, and worse and worse in the original timeline.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Same thing happened to me! I was waiting for my GF to get ready to watch, so I was browsing facebook on my iphone. BAM someone's status mentioned Jin and Sun dying. Grrrrr

Same thing happened to my brother when he got home from work. He was pretty angry, like hurt someone angry lol.

That's why I go almost internet-blackout (except for email, news and a few other safe websites) from Tuesday night to the moment I see the episode

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yeah, but it's a known common courtesy to not post LOST spoilers in Facebook statuses, especially right after they air.

[Datameister 2,044]

Since when is common courtesy common?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The End will now be 2 and 1/2 hours long.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

EDIT:

This just in, the series finale has been extended to 2 and a half hours.

But actually glad you posted it again. Seems like it got lost among the discussion.

[Datameister 2,044]

By the way, I accidentally saw next week's title and one-sentence synopsis, too. Between that and the few frames from the clip I saw, I am sooooooo excited for this episode.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It'll probably be the biggest episode of the series in terms of getting answers.

[Datameister 2,044]

Just based on my very limited knowledge of the premise of the episode, I'm inclined to agree. My guess is that the bulk of the answer-giving will happen in this next episode, with the remaining hours being used mostly just to bring the story to some sort of resolution. With some huge twist, of course.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think the Adam and Eve thing will the be the big shocker that will be revealed in the finale. Oh, and the whole alternate timeline thing too.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, I'm sure the whole reason for the alternate timeline stuff will have to wait till the finale. Adam and Eve...I dunno, could be next week. What if they're Jacob and the MIB's parents?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Possible, but that would be assuming that they're human.

[Datameister 2,044]

No, only assuming that they can die...which Jacob certainly did...

[Jay 37,374]

Alrighty well, since you already know anyway you can read the official ABC press release if you wanna:

LOCKE'S MOTIVES ARE FINALLY EXPLAINED, ON ABC'S "LOST"

"Across the Sea" - The motives of John Locke are finally explained, on "Lost," TUESDAY, MAY 11 (9:00-10:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

"Lost" stars Naveen Andrews as Sayid, Nestor Carbonell as Richard Alpert, Emilie de Ravin as Claire, Michael Emerson as Ben, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, Matthew Fox as Jack, Jorge Garcia as Hurley, Josh Holloway as Sawyer, Daniel Dae Kim as Jin, Yunjin Kim as Sun, Ken Leung as Miles, Evangeline Lilly as Kate, Terry O'Quinn as Locke and Zuleikha Robinson as Ilana.

Guest starring are Mark Pellegrino as Jacob, Titus Welliver as man in black, Allison Janney as woman, Kenton Duty as teenage boy, Ryan Bradford as boy, Lela Loren as Claudia and Ivo Nandi as oldest hunter.

"Across the Sea" was written by Carlton Cuse & Damon Lindelof and directed by Tucker Gates.

"Lost" is broadcast in 720 Progressive (720P), ABC's selected HDTV format, with 5.1-channel surround sound. This program carries a TV-14V parental guideline.

For more information on "Lost," visit ABC.com

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Joe isn't the only one that doesn't want to be spoiled, y'know. I know nothing about this episode aside from the title and it's centricity.

[Jay 37,374]

It's the official ABC press release; It doesn't give away anything beyond the 2 things he already knew: title and one sentence synopsis.

I've spoiler blocked it anyway

[Richard Penna 3,695]

I haven't been following this thread at all lately due to spoilers (you guys get the new episode 3 days before we do), but for those who liked Richard's theme from 'Ab Aeterno', I put together a 4 minute suite of what I considered the best renditions from that episode. Lemme know if anyone wants the original track.

[Datameister 2,044]

Nicely done! It really is a lovely theme. I'm so glad that even if S6 (on average) has been a bit of a disappointment for me, Giacchino's score has only managed to surpass my expectations.

[Olivier 5]

That's great! Thanks, Richuk!

Beautiful music.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I've spoiler blocked it anyway

And I mentally thank you every time you do.

[SF1_freeze 131]

I like the Lost music but it is a shame that Giacchino (after his horrible Star Trek theme and synth sounding score lowered my respect for him) now starts to steal material from other composers.

And it's done in such a bland and obvious way. He just took the first part of the "A Window to the Past" theme form Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban and didn't even disguise it.

You better call his theme "A Window to the Past - The story of Richard Alpert" (Original theme composed by John Williams, Stolen and changed by Michael Giacchino) )

That's almost theft. Imagine what could be the next step. Maybe taking the first part of Hedwig's or Indy's theme and use it for his own purpose

all in all...very dissapointing behaviour of Giacchino and unworthy for an oscar winning composer

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Oh yeah, cause all Oscar winning composers never steal. *cough*John Williams*cough*

[Olivier 5]

I like the Lost music but it is a shame that Giacchino (after his horrible Star Trek theme and synth sounding score lowered my respect for him) now starts to steal material from other composers.

And it's done in such a bland and obvious way. He just took the first part of the "A Window to the Past" theme form Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban and didn't even disguise it.

You better call his theme "A Window to the Past - The story of Richard Alpert" (Original theme composed by John Williams, Stolen and changed by Michael Giacchino) )

That's almost theft. Imagine what could be the next step. Maybe taking the first part of Hedwig's or Indy's theme and use it for his own purpose

all in all...very dissapointing behaviour of Giacchino and unworthy for an oscar winning composer

Gee, I didn't notice that; I don't know "Window to the Past" that well, though I remember it's a beautiful piece.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Was the music box that Christian wanted Claire to have something that we've seen before?

Not that I remember. It is however the same song Claire sung to herself when she was trapped in the temple.

You guys are over thinking the English v. Korean thing. Jin and Sun were planning on moving to America to start a new life there. English was their way of doing that. They found their new life on the island. I think it's kosher if they speak English before they die.

I'd rather say that Jin hadn't spoken a single word of Korean in years. Ever since the time travels started, he had been speaking nothing but English.

The writing continues to be absolutely damn good. The whole episode was beautifully constructed and paced. I had only one very minor quibble: the way Sawyer wanted to get rid of the MIB. So, this guy is actually a god-like entity and you want to beat his ass by pulling him in the water? Well... Of course, it could have been done on purpose because Sawyer is a character who always acts in a very impulsive way, but the solution seemed a bit stretched to me.

They only had to stall him until they could leave on the sub, so it might have worked. If they hadn't been shot at. Which of course didn't bother Flocke one bit because he had no intention of getting on the sub anyway.

[Datameister 2,044]

Was the music box that Christian wanted Claire to have something that we've seen before?

Not that I remember. It is however the same song Claire sung to herself when she was trapped in the temple.

We've never seen the music box before, but Christian sang that song to Claire when she was a baby in the original timeline, and Claire wanted the would-be adopted parents of Aaron to sing the same song to him. And it was featured in "Sundown", too.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I like the Lost music but it is a shame that Giacchino (after his horrible Star Trek theme and synth sounding score lowered my respect for him) now starts to steal material from other composers.

And it's done in such a bland and obvious way. He just took the first part of the "A Window to the Past" theme form Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban and didn't even disguise it.

You better call his theme "A Window to the Past - The story of Richard Alpert" (Original theme composed by John Williams, Stolen and changed by Michael Giacchino) )

That's almost theft. Imagine what could be the next step. Maybe taking the first part of Hedwig's or Indy's theme and use it for his own purpose

all in all...very dissapointing behaviour of Giacchino and unworthy for an oscar winning composer

[Datameister 2,044]

I agree with Blume's disagreement, albeit with less rolling of the eyes. Composers have been intentionally and unintentionally ripping off each other's work for ages, and as long as a given composer doesn't allow it to overshadow his or her own voice, I'm often okay with it.

And the Star Trek theme is an incredibly catchy melody in a score that uses synths less than your average Williams score.

[Incanus 5,716]

The writing continues to be absolutely damn good. The whole episode was beautifully constructed and paced. I had only one very minor quibble: the way Sawyer wanted to get rid of the MIB. So, this guy is actually a god-like entity and you want to beat his ass by pulling him in the water? Well... Of course, it could have been done on purpose because Sawyer is a character who always acts in a very impulsive way, but the solution seemed a bit stretched to me.

They only had to stall him until they could leave on the sub, so it might have worked. If they hadn't been shot at. Which of course didn't bother Flocke one bit because he had no intention of getting on the sub anyway.

I think Sawyer was also thinking about MiBs apparent weakness of not being able to travel over water in Smokey form of which he hinted in one of the previous episodes when Sawyer asked why didn't he just fly over to the Hydra Island. He must have thought that pushing him into the water might ease their escape if the godlike being would not turn into the rampaging smoke and come after them. But as we have seen the MiB is a human body is impervious to any harm so even in that form it would have been difficult to escape if he really would have wanted to enter the sub.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, that's what I figured, too.

By the way, if I do somehow get into the LOST concert/preview event on Thursday, do you guys want me to post a review of the episode, or shall I just keep my opinions and observations to myself till the rest of you have seen it?

[Jay 37,374]

Post all your thoughts in a spoiler block of course!

[Datameister 2,044]

Sweet.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The writing continues to be absolutely damn good. The whole episode was beautifully constructed and paced. I had only one very minor quibble: the way Sawyer wanted to get rid of the MIB. So, this guy is actually a god-like entity and you want to beat his ass by pulling him in the water? Well... Of course, it could have been done on purpose because Sawyer is a character who always acts in a very impulsive way, but the solution seemed a bit stretched to me.

They only had to stall him until they could leave on the sub, so it might have worked. If they hadn't been shot at. Which of course didn't bother Flocke one bit because he had no intention of getting on the sub anyway.

Someone over on Lostpedia noticed this when Locke was pushed into the water:

[Jay 37,374]

What is that, a CGI blob of black goo coming out of his backpack?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Don't know if it's CGI, but it definitely looks like black goo. Perhaps the water prevented him from changing into smoke.

[Jay 37,374]

In trying to find the lostpedia page you were referring to (which I never found), I came across this page which contains a back and forth discussion of whether Widmore is allied with Jacob, the Man In Black, or neither.

http://lostpedia.wik...my_or_Jacob_.3F

My head hurts.

[Datameister 2,044]

Whoa! I definitely didn't catch that! Poor Smokey can't go smokey when he's wet. (And is anyone else really looking forward to finally being able to call him by whatever his real name is? Surely that will be this week...)

[Jay 37,374]

I think it's kind of silly we still don't know his real name... though, the fact that we don't leads me to believe his name itself is some kind of twist

[Datameister 2,044]

I agree.

Of course, the twist could be that after all this anticipation, there IS no twist - his name is Bob Smith or something like that.

In any case, though, I know I'm not the only one who's been annoyed by everyone in the show referring to him as Locke. Occasionally we get references to the black smoke or "that thing", but mostly everyone just calls him Locke, even though they clearly know it's not him. Not sure how I would have handled that as a writer, but that's not the route I would have gone with.

[Jay 37,374]

I know what I would have done... I would have just had a character say what his name was in the season 6 premiere

I was perfectly fine with it not being known in the S5 finale, but its been odd that we haven't learned it since