BigMacGyver 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Sorry if there was already a topic dedicated to this score but i did not really find it right away so...Today, i listened to the patriot again and i am still amazed by this score. This one is actually among my top favourites of Williams new millenium output. What sounds great on CD works even better in the film. The idea of that distant trumpet solo is somewhat watered down on CD but actually is a great idea cleverly used in the film. And then, there is this battle music which really rocks. Tavington's Trap is simply a great piece.Now, i am not sure why this one is disliked so much probably due to the rather poor mix of the CD but it is certainly a very good score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Actually.It's not a very good score.The main theme is not very original, being very similar to Amistad. and even worse rehashing a chunk of Goldsmith's Air Force One theme.And overall it's just very lackluster and uninspired, both in terms of composition, performance and sonics.The distant trumpet idea to convey patriotism is not exactly new either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg1138 3 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I like it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Ware 526 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I haven't listened to it since 2000. Perhaps it's time for another listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The main theme is not very original, being very similar to Amistad. and even worse rehashing a chunk of Goldsmith's Air Force One theme. Both of these are pure hearsay. The trumpet is the only thing in common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The Air Force one rip?It's far more blatant then that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg1138 3 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 There is certainly more than a passing resemblance, but I still like it........Not Love it..........just Like it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Actually.It's not a very good score.The main theme is not very original, being very similar to Amistad. and even worse rehashing a chunk of Goldsmith's Air Force One theme.And overall it's just very lackluster and uninspired, both in terms of composition, performance and sonics.The distant trumpet idea to convey patriotism is not exactly new either. LOL I could see this comingmiles away.. If there is a critical voice amoung us it is Stefan. Thank you for that blunt and final sounding statement that leaves no room for argument. But I (wonder of wonders) like the Patriot even if it seems a little generic Williams score. I usually find something good in every Williams score and this is no exception. The love theme is wonderful though it receives very little variation. It could have benefitted from the performances by Mark O'Connor who could have brought much to the score if they had utilized his talents outside the End Credits suite. I also rather like the "Long have I feared" trumpet call. It is not original idea to be sure but very effective and works dramatically in the film. The main theme may be very close to the Amistad and Air Force One themes but it never bothered me that much. It works on CD and in the film just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMacGyver 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 I would say that i know both scores really well but i don't really see a connection between the main themes of Air Force One and The Patriot. The low string writing of the (patriot) theme is actually more reminiscent of The Lost World and Stuff from Saving Private Ryan spiced with a comparable brass from William's olympic fanfares. In fact, this theme is very different from Jerry's composition apart from the extensive use of horns and trumpet and i don't recall hearing playful flutes accompanying the air force one theme. But that's just me of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The Air Force one rip?It's far more blatant then that. Which one are you referring to, persay? Regarding what Icanus said, I think The Patriot is the generic JW score, and the only one, at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Listen to track 1 starting at 3 minutes and 41 seconds of The Patriot OST.If that's not an adaptation of Goldsmith's main theme for Air Force One, then I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Still hearsay. Sounds similar in style, and it could have been The AFO theme, but I hear no melodic resemblance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I will listen to the comparison later tonight, but already I see a problem in your logic Stefan. Both themes are major key, Americana themes. Therefore, when writing in an idiom so specific and broadly covered as that, it is likely that tunes will be similar from time to time. The only prescription Williams could have followed to avoid writing a tune similar to another would be to stop all Americana writing altogether. Most "patriotic" writing is inspired by open trumpet writing based on 5ths, 3rds and the natural harmonics of that instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I will listen to the comparison later tonight, but already I see a problem in your logic Stefan. Both themes are major key, Americana themes. Therefore, when writing in an idiom so specific and broadly covered as that, it is likely that tunes will be similar from time to time. The only prescription Williams could have followed to avoid writing a tune similar to another would be to stop all Americana writing altogether. Most "patriotic" writing is inspired by open trumpet writing based on 5ths, 3rds and the natural harmonics of that instrument.Don't insult my intelligence.I've heard many patriotic "Americana" themes, while they often share that similar style, they can still be very different (for instance nothing in ID4 sounds like AFO)Listen to my example and then say that it's nothing more then a general similarity.The themes are very similar, Williams just simplified his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I hear nothing that is melodically the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I like the patriot.With with many rants about it here, i always forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,691 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Good score that I'm sure works fine in the film (which looks like a load of cr@p).There are about 3 or 4 tracks I occasionally listen to, but apart from that, doesn't really inspire me.And yep, Stef, I can hear both resemblances - maybe the movie just didn't inspire JW either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I love the Patriot, even though I dont count it among the 'greats'. Its practically John Williams distilled into his essence. Big brassy fanfares, pastoral folksy tunes, 90s style pounding action music and Born on the Fourth of July style strings. A lovely mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashinyobject 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 the score sounds like Mr. Williams got his inspiration while sitting on the pot.um.....not really. its okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_burke 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 the score sounds like Mr. Williams got his inspiration while sitting on the pot.He should have smoked it instead. I like the Patriot though rarely give it a spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuneman_21 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I've had this discussion about Amistad vs. Patriot theme many times with my wife, also a musician. If you think about it, especially in JW most recent music, this seems to be more of a "fight for freedom" theme than anything else. Consider that, this 4 note motive is used in both Amistad, The Patriot AND for the Civil Rights scene in American Journey...all three of which deal with the right to be free. Maybe, for Williams at least, that motive is idicative of that a freedom fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMacGyver 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Good score that I'm sure works fine in the film (which looks like a load of cr@p). Indeed it works very well in the film which is one of the reasons why i like it so much. The CD arrangement is rather clumsy as there seems to be no logic behind it while every note made perfect sense in the film. A chronological arrangement might have helped the music because certain thematic developments would have been much stronger.BTW, does anybody else feel that the mix of the CD is rather poor? The sound is rather muddy to me and there seems to be some hiss here or there which really sucks on a recording done in the new millenium. Maybe it is just my copy that is defective but the score sound much more vibrant in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashinyobject 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I've had this discussion about Amistad vs. Patriot theme many times with my wife, also a musician. If you think about it, especially in JW most recent music, this seems to be more of a "fight for freedom" theme than anything else. Consider that, this 4 note motive is used in both Amistad, The Patriot AND for the Civil Rights scene in American Journey...all three of which deal with the right to be free. Maybe, for Williams at least, that motive is idicative of that a freedom fight.i like that idea. really, i do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuneman_21 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Let's remember, too, Williams did not have alot of time to write this score, since it replaced the original David Arnold score... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 No that is incorrect.David Arnold never wrote a score for this film, it seems he submitted some demo work, but for whatever reason they decided to go with Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMacGyver 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 David Arnold stated on his own site that he never composed a score for this film. He and Emerich separated very early during the brainstorming process already. I think the only thing that was done are some short demos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuneman_21 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 That still gave Williams less time that he usually had to score the movie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 No, not perse.We don't know at what stage of the project they decided not to go with Arnold.Also, Williams isn't really known for doing "rush-jobs".The only instances I know if were he submitted to a short schedule have been with projects of people that he's worked closely with before (for instance Hook for Spielberg, or The Chamber Of Secrets for Columbus)And those scores actually sound more exciting then The Patriot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMacGyver 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Sure? We don't know how much time he actually had to do this. Of course there is a lot of music in the film (including source cues) which probably took some time to record but it really is just speculation after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Having said all this, I must say that the Patriot is not a total waste.The first 2 and a half minutes are really very good, and the Patriot "march", while paling in comparison to The Imperial March, Raiders, 1941 and Midway etc...etc... does work to a certain extent.After track 1 I just get horribly bored with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Listen to track 1 starting at 3 minutes and 41 seconds of The Patriot OST.If that's not an adaptation of Goldsmith's main theme for Air Force One, then I don't know what is.You had me curious on this. I downloaded track 1 from a friend fo mine and listened to it even I could hear the closeness of that and Goldsmith's AFO score. I guess with me knowing AFO's score by heart I was able to hear it right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 If that's not an adaptation of Goldsmith's main theme for Air Force One, then I don't know what is.You obviously don't know what is.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 You obviously don't know what is.JustinYou are shittin' me right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMacGyver 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 I never thought that this one could be such a controversial piece. What i find really interesting is that most people only refer to the main theme when there are much more fine moments in this score that actually foreshadow a lot of material from William's later scores of the new millenium. When i listen to AOTC or ROTS it sometimes feels like he returned to The Patriot. On the other hand, i don't know Amistad and what role this score plays in williams development. Is it really that close to the patriot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 You obviously don't know what is.JustinYou are shittin' me right?That bit sounds as much like Air Force One as Return of the King sounds like The Klingon Theme.Justin - Who'll let history make it's own judgments.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Justin - Who'll let history make it's own judgments....I prefer to make my own judgements, since I have little faith in posterity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I think The Patriot was the breaking point for Williams. No more run of the mill Williams scores. We're either going all the way with the Williams approach (Potter), or doing something totally different (just about everything else). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmanand 0 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I would agree, broadly, that the CD is defined by Track 1, after which the score is largely forgettable. Not bad, as such, but just not memorable in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,337 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I find it to be very Far And Away-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Far & Away is a lot better though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 A LOT better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Good score that I'm sure works fine in the film (which looks like a load of cr@p)erm, actually I thought the film 'looked' rather beautiful...photographically speaking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The fact that anyone thinks that Williams actually sat down and listened to Goldsmith's score to Air Force One, in order to borrow from it, is not thinking with the intellectual part of their brain. Any comparison that can drawn between the two is completely coincidental.Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I love "The Patriot" suite - it's one of my favorite pieces. And the score is a generally pleasant, easy listen. But yeah, since it was brought up, Far and Away is much much better.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The Patriot score is better than Far and Away. As far as the film looked, it was superb. The only things I don't like about it are some of the really corny moments to do with Gabriel's romance with Ann, Susan not speaking until the end and some lame acting here and there. Otherwise, it's decent entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanticStrings 10 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I truly find Williams' The Patriot inspiring. Perhaps it has to do with that to which I associate it, mainly driving into Boston from the north, but it really gets close to my heart. I know others will disagree a considerable amount, but I truly believe that it is an inspired score. The Americana is so undisguised and unabashed, and it is an Americana that to some degree I grew up with in Spencer Lewis' A Sense Of Place and in David Grisman and Daniel Kobialka's Common Chord. I find it to be a refreshingly uplifting take on patriotism along with Amistad, as opposed to Nixon, to which I take great pride in listening, but that I find leaves much to be desired on the uplifting side. I find an energy in The Patriot that I don't find in many other scores, which manifests itself in the pure harmonies and simple melodies that flow into my ears and straight to my heartstrings. It's sappy nationalism, I know, but I take pride in that. Saving Private Ryan is also one of my favorite American scores, but for a completely different reason. Where The Patriot joyfully honors a nation, Saving Private Ryan mournfully honors the fallen soldiers who gave their lives so that I may be here writing about John Williams' music today. Both scores, as well as Nixon and the individual themes from other scores on Williams' compilation albums that I own, share equal standing on American holidays such as Patriots' Day, Veterans' Day, Memorial Day, and, of course, Independence Day. In short, I really like Williams' score to The Patriot. In fact, as I sit here listening to it writing this essay, I can safely say that I love this music.~Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The fact that anyone thinks that Williams actually sat down and listened to Goldsmith's score to Air Force One, in order to borrow from it, is not thinking with the intellectual part of their brain. Any comparison that can drawn between the two is completely coincidental.TimEver heard of temp tracks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salacius 7 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The main theme is very beautiful. Worthy to go against any other theme of its kind he has written before. There are also some great subdued moments. It's definitely a great score.Only thing for me (again) the action writing is not very engaging at al (but this is just my opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I love this score!!! Apart from the obvious tracks, "Susan Speaks" might be a hidden treasure . . . it's really calm, emotional, perhaps a bit sentimental . . . but I thought it was perfect for the scene. Unfortunately, I think this version wasn't used in the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Love it too. The main theme is very solid writing, the only flaw is the violin soslos by Marc O'conner, although those might be regarded as 'authentic' (fiddle).Rest of the score is a nice loud listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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