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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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And if Luke returns as a Forces ghost, Yoda's lightning demonstrates he can still interact with the real world. So there is that. 

 

We saw it tonight. Pretty good. I need to gather my thoughts. 

 

But General Hux is an idiot and has no idea how to use his fleet to accomplish a task. He has one very wide flagship and a dozen normal Star Destroyers trying to chase a slightly faster Rebel cruiser that's running out of fuel. 

 

Why not just send some of those ships out ahead of the cruiser with two or three hyperspace jumps to box them in?

 

The entire storyline of Finn and Rose was almost a complete waste of time, but for two smaller effects. It gave Poe's mutiny a leg to stand on, and it gave hope to the slave children at the racetrack.

 

Three. It gave us a resolution to Captain Phasma. Unless she somehow survives this too. 

 

Snoke's death was probably the coolest light saber death ever. 

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On 12/30/2017 at 11:03 PM, Woj said:

Snoke's death was probably the coolest light saber death ever. 

 

It felt visceral to me in a way that I don't remember feeling during any of the other movies.  That and some of the deaths in the ensuing fight scene, especially compared to something like the Sarlaac scene in Return of the Jedi...  I actually felt a little unnerved, similar to how I felt watching Logan. 

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Some of Snoke's acolytes were pretty tough to fight and gave Kylo a hard time. Why weren't any of them Snoke's next apprenticeship? 

 

This movie makes me want to dust off KOTOR 2 and reexplore Malachor V. 

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21 hours ago, Woj said:

 

 

But General Hux is an idiot and has no idea how to use his fleet to accomplish a task. He has one very wide flagship and a dozen normal Star Destroyers trying to chase a slightly faster Rebel cruiser that's running out of fuel. 

 

Why not just send some of those ships out ahead of the cruiser with two or three hyperspace jumps to box them in?

 

 

 

 

The excuses in the movie was that the rebel cruisers moved faster at sub light speed.

 

I thought the same about jumping to light speed and boxing them in, or even calling for backup to box them in. 

 

The excuses I've read is that the ships would overshoot the rebel ships by too much. Makes me wonder if the first order isn’t as big as the Empire was.

 

 

Of course fuel never appeared to be a problem before. The millennium falcon managed to zip around TESB without Han worrying about fueling up

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It's a crummy excuse. I can understand the FO cruisers don't want to cut through the Rebel ships... We see what happens later and it's spectacular. But one other two small jumps should not be an issue. 

 

It's likely hubris and classic Imperial overconfidence. And it extends the movie. 

 

And the FO should not worry about losing their fighters to three cruisers. They should have overwhelmed them easily. 

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I'd have been happy with something more straightforward like "we surgically insert a subdermal tracking device into every stormtrooper so we can track deserters." That would make more sense to explain that Finn was the key to tracking the Rebels. Not the cockamamie scheme they made. 

 

But I did like Rose. A normal plain girl that wouldn't say no to seconds. 

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On 29.12.2017 at 6:18 PM, crocodile said:

The problem has mostly to do with editing. There are films that gracefully intercut sequences. Heck, even Nolan can do it well. But there is something odd about how TLJ is put together. One, some of those different subplots don't really mesh well. Second, they all end up being protracted for way too long and not move forward as if they are all happening at the same time. And feed off each others' energy, if you will. You have story A being intercut with stories B and C and it all is supposed to be creating tension. But once you switch from A to B, everything in the first one comes to a standstill. And eventually it resumes, of course, but there is very little fluidity in editing. Your brain is already getting all the information but you wait another several minutes for the film to catch up. Or at least this is what it feels like.

 

As far as the content goes, the film is fine. Yeah, a lot of things don't make sense (why doesn't the Resistance fleet jump into lightspeed straight away at the beginning?) but it has enough character for it not too matter as much.

 

Karol

I know what you mean, but it gets better and more gripping, when you watch the film a second time and know what's going on.

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Rethinking about this film, I think what I find most off-putting (in a film I rather enjoyed, otherwise) is how palpable the lack of restraint on the part of the director is: its there in the length, the amount of surprises and twists, in the stakes, in the number of plot lines, in some of the dialogue, etc....

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Oh I hate sudden plot twists, rubbish storytelling.

 

Thats why I love long, fluid storytelling like LOTR or Star Trek DS9.

The Prequels are the only ones that come close to that expensive, dramatically weighted storytelling. But their shocking execution ruined it all.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Rethinking about this film, I think what I find most off-putting (in a film I rather enjoyed, otherwise) is how palpable the lack of restraint on the part of the director is: its there in the length, the amount of surprises and twists, in the stakes, in the number of plot lines, in some of the dialogue, etc....

 

I frankly think that's almost admirable in a way though I am not by any means sold on the film. Rian totally went for it, toeing the big Disney red line and even sticking his head over it. He made a SW film as if he will never be given the opportunity to make it again and just made it entirely and completely his own. In a lot of ways, it is the most film-maker driven SW film.

 

To me that does not make it a good film but I will give it that it has balls and takes chances and is atleast unexpected and singular and bold and unprecedented.

 

But also a movie overshadowed by its extremely problematic construction.

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Yep.

 

What you are doing is basically applying film criticism through the lens of auteur theory: the idea that the very fact that, in this corporate hollywood, a filmmaker managed to imbue a film with his own sensibilities - is praiseworthy in and of itself.

 

Of course that doesn't absolve a film from its flaws, which in this case are, as you say, in the structure.

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1. It is extremely rare, alreast it seems to me, to have a sole writing credit on any big budget film these days.

 

2. No other person than Lucas has had sole writing credit on a star Wars film till date.

 

Rian broke both of the above conventions, and both are pretty big conventions.

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So far the two films seem a little bit inconsistent, but it is up to Episode 9 to solve these problems. Abrams must now continue TLJ and not TFA otherwise things will get very inconsistent. Hopefully he won't get back to his old TFA-formula, because of TLJ's backlash. It's too late, Johnson has already made his movie!

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1 minute ago, Brundlefly said:

So far the two films seem a little bit inconsistent, but it is up to Episode 9 to solve these problems. Abrams must now continue TLJ and not TFA otherwise things will get very inconsistent. Hopefully he won't get back to his old TFA-formula, because of TLJ's backlash. It's too late, Johnson has already made his movie!

 

Easily solved.  Finn was recovering in some kind of Bacta tank at the end of TFA right?

 

First scene of Episode IX:  "Finn..Finn..wake up".

 

You're welcome JJ.

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Disappointing to me but...

 

"Rey and Kylo are almost two halves of our protagonist."

 

This was way back when on 6th September.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/movies/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson.html

 

I think Johnson has seriously undermined the protagonist status of Rey with the second film. 

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8 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

 

Easily solved.  Finn was recovering in some kind of Bacta tank at the end of TFA right?

 

First scene of Episode IX:  "Finn..Finn..wake up".

 

You're welcome JJ.

 

JJ should have directed this entire trilogy. Leave Johnson to do the next trilogy. To think, from a year ago to TLJ's release, the hype for Johnson was ecstatic. His reputation's dropped big time.

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On 12/31/2017 at 10:02 PM, Brundlefly said:

I know what you mean, but it gets better and more gripping, when you watch the film a second time and know what's going on.

 

I saw it again today and felt the same. I still think there are editing issues (mainly because of Canto Bight; that whole story avenue needed to be reshaped and shortened), but going in already knowing what the story would do allowed me to more easily digest how it was being presented. There are certain sequences that I wish had been left without cutting into the other plot threads, namely the throne room sequence which is, as a whole, maybe the best part of the movie. 

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2 hours ago, Red said:

I saw it again today and felt the same. I still think there are editing issues (mainly because of Canto Bight; that whole story avenue needed to be reshaped and shortened), but going in already knowing what the story would do allowed me to more easily digest how it was being presented. There are certain sequences that I wish had been left without cutting into the other plot threads, namely the throne room sequence which is, as a whole, maybe the best part of the movie. 

I think it is quite cool when the film jumps from scene to scene, faster and faster, and you see all three subplots are gonna crash together. The tempo and the tension are constantly rising and then there's this big climax, where Holdo crashes Snoke's ship and everything falls apart. The problem is: That was already the big climax and the whole Crait sequence cannot raise the tension any more.

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5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I think it is quite cool when the film jumps from scene to scene, faster and faster, and you see all three subplots are gonna crash together. The tempo and the tension are constantly rising and then there's this big climax, where Holdo crashes Snoke's ship and everything falls apart. The problem is: That was already the big climax and the whole Crait sequence cannot raise the tension any more.

 

Yep. It almost feels like a false third act. You think the film is coming to a close, but than it's revealed to be just the midpoint.

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3 hours ago, Holko said:

But then we would have another movie picking up the second the last one ends, then it would jump forward 20 years for the second and third act?

 

Source?

 

How are they going to age everyone by 20 years? Isn't this film due in 2019?

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5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I think it is quite cool when the film jumps from scene to scene, faster and faster, and you see all three subplots are gonna crash together. The tempo and the tension are constantly rising and then there's this big climax, where Holdo crashes Snoke's ship and everything falls apart. The problem is: That was already the big climax and the whole Crait sequence cannot raise the tension any more.

 

My thoughts as well. The series of events and images leading up to the throne room and hyperspace crash are magnificent. The events on Crait, although very fine on its own, are a misstep trailing so closely with that climatic sequence. 

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I didn't get that feeling at all. Crait was the destination all along.

 

What the Canto scenes needed was tighter editing and more of a reason for us to give a shit about anything going on.

 

For me what was missing was the sense of urgency which I thought J.J. would've handled better. Get things moving.

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I don't think so. There were a lot of bad composite shots, and when they're outside with the Fathiers its very dark, clearly an attempt to hide what were subpar special effects.

 

To me, there is not a single thing about that storyline that works. Not one.

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To be honest, it’s not that dark outside with the fathiers at all, and clearly brighter than what actual night would look like.

 

And though that part of the film is utterly pointless to me, I have to say, though I was scrutinising that sequence on my second viewing (as I’d seen your disfavourable comparison to the AUJ warg chase scene beforehand), I thought the vfx on the fathiers was fine, and way more convincing than the wargs from the early scene in AUJ (which itself was not helped by the dreadful overbrightening and bloom-ing of almost every shot in that film, presumably to aid brightness for the 3D viewings. The original vfx shots as seen in WETA’s videos look way better without the grading)

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I'll do some asking with people I went to see it with, although I doubt they'd recall it very well. It might have been an issue with my venue, but I could not for the life of me see what was happening in that sequence.

 

I like the Warg chase fine. Like this, its a composite shot, but only the Wargs are CG, whereas in The Last Jedi the entire environment was transformed via VFX and it didn't look good to me. If anything, the Fathier sequence was down-graded in post-production (hence the darkness), whereas An Unexpected Journey (unlike the other two) is presented pretty much ungraded.

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Well, it would have been downgraded, as cameras aren’t exactly the greatest in the dark - it’s far easier to shoot something a bit brighter and downgrade than sacrifice image quality with a tonne of grain.

 

But AUJ is nowhere near ungraded, did you see the first trailer? 😛 That looked more ungraded.

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Trailers traditionally have a different palette to the finished film: check out The Last Jedi. If anything, they upgrade the color of the film in post for the trailer. Its the finished film, in this case, that has what looks to me like a more naturalistic look.

 

And again, two wrongs don't make a right. That sequence in The Last Jedi doesn't work. Looking at it, it seems like they were trying to make the shot darker in post in order to hide the effects.

 

It stands out because generally these new Star Wars features shy away from excessive digital grading, in favor of a more naturalistic look.

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There was 3 months to spare in postproduction, if either the VFX studio or Rian thought ANY improvements were necessary, I'm sure they could've locked the movie a few weeks later. Maybe your cinema messed something up?

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I don't think so. There were a lot of bad composite shots, and when they're outside with the Fathiers its very dark, clearly an attempt to hide what were subpar special effects.

 

He's referring to Crait, the salt planet in the third act of the film, not Canto Bight.

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Crait looks fine. There were a couple of quick shots of Finn and Rose outside that didn't look all that convincing, but those were fleeting moments. Doesn't really count.

 

What I disliked about it was that they had to have one of the ressistance fighters comment on the terrain: "oh, its salt."

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2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

What I disliked about it was that they had to have one of the ressistance fighters comment on the terrain: "oh, its salt."

 

How is that even an issue? It's literally a second's worth of dialogue.

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