ZenLogic101

I liked the posts informing about historic examples of large musical forces in classical and film music—very interesting to read. 
 
So maybe Fallout’s 230 musicians aren’t necessarily over-the-top. But 550 for DR Part 1 is still ridiculous to me. I also no longer harbor much trust that Balfe did it for the musicians’ benefit. The supposed “inspiration” from Russian composers, trying to claim that in situ recording adds something precious to the music, name-dropping the Swiss Drum Corps and the top-rank cities he went to, and touting a 35-person bongo session— all of it reeks of Balfe shouting, “BE IMPRESSED WITH ME!!”
 
Other composers let their music speak for themselves. It seems like it’s only RCP guys who annoyingly insist on using the PR full-court press. If only the music was deserving of it. 

I ran it through Google Translate and got "I couldn't believe how much my music budget was so I figured I might as well use it to have a jolly time flying around to places that were vaguely connected with the film and something, something, something...  abort, retry, fail?"

That is such a load of PR puffery, I might have actually lost five minutes of life expectancy seething at the utter ridiculousness of the idea. Do we get L.A. vibes when we hear music performed by the studio orchestra on the Sony scoring stage?? Of course not. Can anyone tell me what the hell was Venetian about any of the score playing during the party or in the alleys and canals afterward? Is there such a thing as an Abu Dhabi sound that would have somehow belonged in scenes set in an airport? And someone please tell me what musical signature applies to a passenger train traveling to Austria? To claim that the music somehow gains character by being played in situ is the highest form of masturbatory preening, worse even than the way wine critics write about nose and terroir.
 
Here’s an idea, Balfe: Write music that weaves regional characteristics into your M:I sound and let the ace musicians who already live and work in London give you the world flair you seek. A talented composer would already know to do that—and know how to do that, of course, and not try to make an end run by claiming that recording in Venice somehow makes the notes special. But you’re not that composer, are you?
 
I can’t wait for the PR for the score to DR Part 2. I fully expect to read that Balfe recorded a hundred-strong Slavic male choir in the bowels of a decommissioned nuclear sub. You know, so we the audience really get to understand the Entity. All in a year’s work for this brave musical pioneer.

You're pretty much right on all your accounts. Balfe is a mediocre composer who tries to disguise his banal music with all this PR bullshit. "Look how talented I am, I used 500 of the most talented European musicians to perform my score!", when it's actually two hours of "epic trailer music".
 
But this is what the audiences like these days, so there's nothing we can do.

I'm genuinely curious about this. I recently learned Lorne Balfe used 230 musicians (including six flutes and 30 brass) for MI: Fallout and something like 550 musicians for MI: DR Part 1. These numbers, especially the latter, are absurd. The guy's no Wagner (and even that megalomaniac would probably have balked at counts like these) and he operates in an industry where instrument striping, synth choirs, electronic overlaying, and audio processing make musician counts like these preposterous overkill.
 
So what is it, then? I have some theories:
 
1. Balfe is a mediocre film scorer at best and he knows it. Having reached the limits of his composing talent, he believes the best way to make an impression going forward is by maximizing the production value of his so-called music. He may only know how to write the epic equivalent of "Hot Cross Buns" but, by God, he'll scour the planet for the largest possible number of the best conservatory-trained instrumentalists to play the ever-loving hell out of that three-chord-and-zero-modulation theme.
 
2. Balfe is trying to gain credibility on the cheap. Even though he knows he can't write a melody or develop a theme to save his life, he still craves respectability. And one way to get it is to bury your work under so many layers of borrowed prestige and reflected glory that to question the quality of the music itself almost becomes an act of disrespect. What's better than being able to say that a renowned soloist performed your music for a film? Getting to say that a dozen of them did (q.v. Zimmer and his drumming circle for some Superman movie). Slaving for well over a year on a score and then hunting down 550 of the best musicians in Europe to perform it? What churlish misanthrope is going to criticize your music after you tell them that?
 
3. Having Peter-principled his way to the top ranks of his industry, Balfe doesn't actually recognize how untalented he is and genuinely believes he needs five hundred musicians to properly deliver on the quality and potential of his latest writing.
 
Sorry for the tirade, Balfe/Zimmer/RCP fans, but for fuck's sake -- what happened to our beloved art form? A beautiful garden -- the clever and delightful use of dynamics, tone color, leitmotif, orchestra hits, non-Western scales, and key change to set up scenes, accentuate story beats and deliver payoffs -- has turned into a dumpster fire of wall-to-wall noise that's sucked far more oxygen out of the room than it deserves to.
 
Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Balfe's music really does warrant musical forces of that magnitude. If someone wants to give a shot at explaining it, I'm ready to listen.

Saw the film yesterday.
 
I'm one of those weirdos who avoided anything score-related prior to seeing the film. I knew Helena had a theme but I hadn't listened to it. I steered clear of all discussions about the film and score. So I was going in with very few preconceived notions.
 
Maybe it would have been better if I hadn't done that. Because it didn't take long for me to realize this was another COS, and it hurt my enjoyment of the film. One direct quote after another, strung together (very competently) by Williams and/or Ross.
 
If I hadn't heard any of the previous scores, I probably would be hailing this one as a triumph. It's all great stuff! But as things are, I was distracted and disappointed by each lifted passage. I hoped that they'd stop after the prologue, but they merely became a little less frequent.
 
I know how this is gonna go. As the years pass, I'll get used to these new configurations of the old writing, and I'll come to enjoy this score well enough as its own thing. That's what happened with COS. But in the meantime … damn, what a letdown.
 
(Disclaimer: I fully realize that JW is in his 90s. I don't know how he continues to do as much as he does. Not holding anything against him, or anyone else.)

Why's Star Wars?

I want a LOTR remake in the "cinematic universe" style, with solo movies for Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, etc., that would converge in an epic battle against Than... I mean, Sauron. And I want Lorne Balfe or Junkie XL to score it in the most badass way, filled with guitars, synths and EPIC CHOIR.

johnnyspeaks.mp3  

Modern superhero scores are often boring too. Many of the themes are lame.

I'm extremely bored with the themes in recent scores. I know I'm not alone. Yet I'm surprised how optimistic some soundtrack reviewers are about it. If they had to listen to modern scores ten years ago, they would have lost their minds how bad things are. I mean, Man of Steel got one star reviews from three major soundtrack reviewers back in the day. Nowadays, Man of Steel would be a welcome improvement in average quality. The past few years of declining quality have been something like the boiling frog analogy. You can look back 15 years and suddenly you're absolutely stunned what has happened.

I know what you mean. Sound quality is definitely a factor; I suspect that if it ever gets a proper remaster, a lot of feelings will shift. But it's not just that. Compositionally, I agree that it's a notch or two below its predecessors. (Which still puts it above 99.99% of all film scores, to be clear.)
 
One factor is the way JW handled the Imperial March. He may have overused it in ESB, but many of the arrangements were better. There's something leaner, angrier, more militaristic. Vertically speaking, there's a stronger emphasis on fifths and octaves. In ROTJ, the thirds are more prominent. It sounds cheesier to me. There's also a tendency in ESB to keep something of a pedal tone going beneath the first phrase or two. That vanishes in ROTJ. The bassline tends to just follow the tonic of the chord.
 
Anyway, it's still an incredible score.

I simply cannot respect a filmmaker that treats JW's efforts in this manner.

Oh no, they're going to have annoying crowd noise and commentators all over the music.  Ugh, I hoped it would be more classy than that.  The session had better leak.

I really wish Williams would keep up with modern digital music services, and allow people to hear the quasi full score as recorded, like so many others do. There are hours of music released for any third rate new TV show, but a legacy JW score is available only on a chopped up 70 minute album? That's just not right.
 
It's fine that Williams has control over the soundtrack assembly, it's his music, but it really wouldn't put a dent in his crown if he released a full score on streaming services, in addition to the well put together concept album he has done for 40 years.

The Force Awakens.
 
6m57 - Rey's Rope Climb 
6m57R - Rey's Rope Climb
6m57R Alt Ending - Rey On The Wall
 
The scene where Rey quietly scaling the wall, hiding from the stormtroopers.
In fact, a total of three versions of the cue were written for this, and they were all written when the scene was located elsewhere in the movie: after Han, Finn and Chewy go to infiltrate the base.
 
1. 6m57 Rey's Rope Climb (written no later than March 30)
JW decides to use a quiet piano/synth ostinato throughout the cue, with interjections of the Rey's theme on the harp. 
This version is longer than the final edit. There are two big "swells" in the cue, and both end with the "Door Opens" sync hint, so Rey wasn't initially able to hit the hatch the first time (probably?).
Also, after that, there should have been another little scene where the imperial droid drives past Rey in the hallway: this moment is in both novelizations:


2. 6m57R Rey's Rope Climb (no later than June 11; recorded)
In the revised version JW uses the same idea, adding a slight variety.
This version is already shorter, but still has differences from the final edit: it seems that in the beginning there was added another shot with Rey hiding (then later it was moved again), and at the end there was still a scene with the droid.

 
3. 6m57R Alt Ending  Rey On The Wall (probably August, fixed on September 3; recorded)
This cue replaces the second half of 6m57R, and is in fact written by W. Ross (probably, based on JW's idea). A more tense but less minimalistic approach is used here, which was left in the movie (in abridged form).

I agree completely. I think, in an ideal world, the filmmakers would be more involved in the marketing and trailers would be an extension of the film. Matching music, tone, etc.
 
In reality, it's almost like... studios want films to appeal as general as possible. Quite frankly I also think it can come across sometimes as if the studios don't have faith in the final product to stand on it's own as it is. It's an odd disconnect where the marketing seems to read as if they think the movie won't appeal to enough of the general audience, but at the same time they are allowing the filmmaker to produce the final result we end up seeing. Feels a bit like an oxymoron. They do it though, because they want as many asses in seats as they can. Though, I think it's pretty clear these days how divisive films can be, especially with passionate fanbases. Honestly they should be to an extent. If a film wants to say something and mean something, it won't necessarily apply to or appeal to everyone. But they still want to get it in front of as many people as they can - so they distill and sometimes straight up lie to appeal to other kinds of viewers.
 
Since this thread is derailed anyway, I might as well mention an insightful conversation I had on this topic with Eric Alan, who was creative director at Nickelodeon Movies in the early 2000s and was heavily involved in the campaign for Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events.
 
I did a lot of research on that campaign and was grateful he spoke with me about it, because that campaign did a full 180 mid-way through the year and I was very eager to find out why.
 
For those that care for some detail and interesting anecdotes about film marketing in the early 2000s, I've nested this under a spoiler tag to not take up too much more space with this post by default.
 
And all this is from 2004. I can only image with the advent of spoiler culture things are even more wild - especially since they can now spend the time to render fake VFX shots just for the trailers.

I’ve never understood the logic behind making the trailer music sound completely unlike what is going to be delivered in the film.
 
You’re just setting people up with the wrong expectations and misrepresenting the musical element of your film. The point of a trailer should be to give a bite-sized representation of what your film is actually like, companies usually get lambasted if they include footage that isn’t in the actual movie - so why not for music that is not in the actual movie and also unrepresentative of anything you’ll hear in it?

I don't know how anyone who has listened to decades' worth of Williams's music could hear that trailer and think there's even a tiny chance he worked on its music.  End of story.

I think it's a more likely scenario that the trailer music was written by the reanimated corpse of Ludwig van Beethoven than that it was written by John Williams.  I also haven't watched the trailer though.

Interesting that you mention quality when I've done nothing of the sort. I just said Williams didn't write it, and an orchestra didn't record it. Plenty of great music out there fits that description.
 
And yes, if you say you can't tell if this was Williams, I'd say you're not qualified to tell whether this was Williams.

If this isn't one of the saddest things I've read I don't know what is.
It's no big deal not having an ear for music, but listen to those who have. 
Having "worked in the film industry" doesn't give you an ear for film music.
 
Also, since you're not coy about your thoughts, I don't have to be either: it's hard calling this trailer music "composed", since it sounds like it was most likely cooked up by someone playing MIDI directly into a DAW. John Williams WRITES music, and someone who actually writes music down - someone really skilled - couldn't come up with something this shallow and vapid if he tried. Especially not if his music has a distinct quality like JW. 

Oh wait there's a third one too.  And it's the best one

the writing and production value is worth watching it alone.  with every franchise these days getting a spin off or tv series, it truly shows how ahead of the time that series was.
 
i dont care for shows these days in franchises that 'fill gaps' in our imagination. everything has to be "OMG I REMEMBER THAT MOMENT FROM THE FILM" and outside of a few moments (ie: "making it up as I go along" lesson learned in phantom train of doom) that show completely stood on it's own for the character. most of the time Indy isn't even the spotlight of that show.  Another reason why I think lots of people may not like it.
 
there's just a huge difference between a show like Obi Wan that just exists to fill your imagination worse than a novel ever could, to a moment in Young Indy where he jokingly suggests The Red Baron paint his plane red, and he eventually does it. And it's moments like that, that made the show so likeable.
 
I don't want a show learning how Indy and Sallah met, ect ect, ect.  We don't need this shit spoonfed to us.
 
Ultimately it seems like stories used to WANT to be told by creators.  Now they're just told to because they know the franchise being tied to it will hit a certain amount $$$.