Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Jay 37,369]

With the film a week away, now's the time to start a thread to discuss the WHOLE score (from what we can hear in the film), so people can stick to the thread for the OST album until they've seen the film, if they want to.

 

Once the film open wide I will put SPOILERS ALLOWED in the thread title, but since we're still a week out, if anybody has seen it early and wants to put certain things in spoiler blocks so that people can read the rest of your thoughts now, feel free.

 

That being said, people who are trying to remain as spoiler free as possible should be very careful in this thread, even now!

[Pawel P. 738]

Saw the movie on Monday.

 

If I had to compare the score to any of the previous parts in the series, I'd pick  "The Last Crusade". There was also really one leading new theme (Grail) and the compelling action music that dominated the score. There is even more of it here. Helena's Theme we hear more often in the film itself in adventure arrangements (that are really great) than the one we know from last concerts. It's only in its full "Golden Age" glory during the end credits.

 

But there is a lot going on here, it is dynamic and dense, because there is no shortage of action in the movie. There are also some musical surprises. In one of the scenes I heard something that would fit to "Dirty Harry" or "Bullitt" or other Shiffrin's scores form 70's. Very unusual for Williams.  There's another theme, more exotic, similar to "Tintin". And a lot of "Raider's March" and twice

Spoiler

"Marion's Theme"

 

 

The music is very intense, just like "The Last Crusade" mixed with "Tintin". And sometimes it rushes like "The Lost World". The music accompanying action scenes, with motifs accompanying the antagonists, is very intense and the whole score is very "busy" , if I may use such a word. Williams had a lot to do here. And must have had fun!

 

And there is theme related to the McGuffin - very simple one. 

 

I can't wait to hear the score from the album and I have no doubt that it will be a great listening experience.

 

Williams and Ross are listed as conductors.

 

And the movie itself? Without giving away any spoilers, I really liked it. A lot of humor, lots of action, with a solid emotion in the background. There were moments that really surprised me. The biggest acting star here is indeed the fantastic Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

 

Can't wait to see it again!

[toothless 964]

42 minutes ago, Pawel P. said:

Saw the movie on Monday.

 

If I had to compare the score to any of the previous parts in the series, I'd pick  "The Last Crusade". There was also really one leading new theme (Grail) and the compelling action music that dominated the score. There is even more of it here. Helena's Theme we hear more often in the film itself in adventure arrangements (that are really great) than the one we know from last concerts. It's only in its full "Golden Age" glory during the end credits.

 

But there is a lot going on here, it is dynamic and dense, because there is no shortage of action in the movie. There are also some musical surprises. In one of the scenes I heard something that would fit to "Dirty Harry" or "Bullitt" or other Shiffrin's scores form 70's. Very unusual for Williams.  There's another theme, more exotic, similar to "Tintin". And a lot of "Raider's March" and twice

  Reveal hidden contents

"Marion's Theme"

 

 

The music is very intense, just like "The Last Crusade" mixed with "Tintin". And sometimes it rushes like "The Lost World". The music accompanying action scenes, with motifs accompanying the antagonists, is very intense and the whole score is very "busy" , if I may use such a word. Williams had a lot to do here. And must have had fun!

 

And there is theme related to the McGuffin - very simple one. 

 

I can't wait to hear the score from the album and I have no doubt that it will be a great listening experience.

 

Williams and Ross are listed as conductors.

 

And the movie itself? Without giving away any spoilers, I really liked it. A lot of humor, lots of action, with a solid emotion in the background. There were moments that really surprised me. The biggest acting star here is indeed the fantastic Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

 

Can't wait to see it again!

 

Okay now I seriously can’t wait to hear this score! 

[Jay 37,369]

Thanks for the report, @Pawel P.!  How'd you see it early?

[Tom 4,664]

How was the non-Helena theme part of the end credits?  

[Pawel P. 738]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Thanks for the report, @Pawel P.!  How'd you see it early?

 

Jay, saw it at press screening in Warsaw.

10 minutes ago, Tom said:

How was the non-Helena theme part of the end credits?  

 

It was the full version we know from the concerts, immediately after Raider's March (which later didn't return). Without Anne-Sophie Mutter.

[crumbs 14,317]

8 minutes ago, Pawel P. said:

 

Jay, saw it at press screening in Warsaw.

 

It was the full version we know from the concerts, immediately after Raider's March (which later didn't return). Without Anne-Sophie Mutter.

 

No other music after the Helena suite?

[Edmilson 7,466]

So maybe the ASM version will be an OST exclusive track?

 

Can't wait to see which action cue will be unreleased thanks to it!

[Pawel P. 738]

2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

No other music after the Helena suite?

 

Sorry, I didn't read carefully.

 

Immediately after Raider's March and Helena's Theme (played in its entirety, without Anne-Sophie Mutter), there was some MacGuffin and action music variations, but I have to say it's quite an unusual End Credits for Williams. More like typical  Horner's End Credits, with slow-paced music. There is no Raider's March at the end.

 

I'm curious if we'll hear a slightly different suite on the album.

[Jay 37,369]

Just now, Pawel P. said:

I'm curious if we'll hear a slightly different suite on the album.

 

That'd be interesting!

[crumbs 14,317]

22 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So maybe the ASM version will be an OST exclusive track?

 

Can't wait to see which action cue will be unreleased thanks to it!

 

So in all likelihood the ASM version will be a self-contained track early in the OST, while the orchestral version will be exclusive to the Finale track.

 

The jury's out on whether the rest of the material in the film credits is part of a suite or tracked from the score, or whether the album version segues back to the Raiders March or whatever (maybe this wasn't long enough to cover the film credits, hence the film using action cues).

 

It's hard to imagine an Indiana Jones OST that doesn't segue back to the Raiders March for the closing track, especially for the final ever Indy score. And many have already noted Helena's Theme has a perfect segue back to the Raiders March, before the closing flute solo (probably written as a concert ending).

[Damien F 1,742]

In the past, didn't we used to know the track list a few weeks before the CD release? I miss that because it was cool to speculate about the track names and match them with the reports from people who saw the movie early.

[Jay 37,369]

4 minutes ago, Damien F said:

In the past, didn't we used to know the track list a few weeks before the CD release? I miss that because it was cool to speculate about the track names and match them with the reports from people who saw the movie early.

 

Yes, that used to be the norm.

It has not been the norm for many years now, however.

[Edmilson 7,466]

12 minutes ago, crumbs said:

The jury's out on whether the rest of the material in the film credits is part of a suite or tracked from the score, or whether the album version segues back to the Raiders March or whatever (maybe this wasn't long enough to cover the film credits, hence the film using action cues).

 

I guess that was what happened and JW's end titles suite wasn't long enough for the credits. I assume they did track stuff from the score, as that has been the norm for big blockbusters for a few years.

[Jay 37,369]

Kind of like how the TFA credits on album use a short version of the Resistance March, and the actual film uses the whole cue

[BB-8 3,479]

So ASM didn't provide enough cookies to be included in the film?

 

And then JW asked Ross to produce a violin arrangement to make her back off.

[Jay 37,369]

4 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

The music is very intense, just like "The Last Crusade" mixed with "Tintin". And sometimes it rushes like "The Lost World". The music accompanying action scenes, with motifs accompanying the antagonists, is very intense and the whole score is very "busy" , if I may use such a word. Williams had a lot to do here. And must have had fun!

 

All of this is absolutely the most exciting thing I have read about this score yet.  Can't wait!

[Tom 4,664]

Reading through the media reviews on RT over the last week, I don't think there has been a film in at least the last 20 years (maybe even since Schindler's List) where the the score is mentioned so frequently and so positively by the reviewers--regardless of whether they like or even hate the film.  It is nice to see JW getting the credit he deserves.  

[Jay 37,369]

Yeah that's great!

[mrbellamy 6,287]

6 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

In one of the scenes I heard something that would fit to "Dirty Harry" or "Bullitt" or other Shiffrin's scores form 70's. Very unusual for Williams.  

 

I can't wait for this! 

[DangerMotif 1,038]

6 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

Saw the movie on Monday.

 

If I had to compare the score to any of the previous parts in the series, I'd pick  "The Last Crusade". There was also really one leading new theme (Grail) and the compelling action music that dominated the score. There is even more of it here. Helena's Theme we hear more often in the film itself in adventure arrangements (that are really great) than the one we know from last concerts. It's only in its full "Golden Age" glory during the end credits.

 

But there is a lot going on here, it is dynamic and dense, because there is no shortage of action in the movie. There are also some musical surprises. In one of the scenes I heard something that would fit to "Dirty Harry" or "Bullitt" or other Shiffrin's scores form 70's. Very unusual for Williams.  There's another theme, more exotic, similar to "Tintin". And a lot of "Raider's March" and twice

  Reveal hidden contents

"Marion's Theme"

 

 

The music is very intense, just like "The Last Crusade" mixed with "Tintin". And sometimes it rushes like "The Lost World". The music accompanying action scenes, with motifs accompanying the antagonists, is very intense and the whole score is very "busy" , if I may use such a word. Williams had a lot to do here. And must have had fun!

 

And there is theme related to the McGuffin - very simple one. 

 

I can't wait to hear the score from the album and I have no doubt that it will be a great listening experience.

 

Williams and Ross are listed as conductors.

 

And the movie itself? Without giving away any spoilers, I really liked it. A lot of humor, lots of action, with a solid emotion in the background. There were moments that really surprised me. The biggest acting star here is indeed the fantastic Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

 

Can't wait to see it again!

Any score highlights besides Helena’s theme? How was the music for the final shot? I heard a couple reviews mentioning it.

[Damien F 1,742]

46 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

I can't wait for this! 

Yeah, that sounds very intriguing. It might also give us an indication of what a JW score for Spielberg's upcoming Bullitt movie would sound like if he can be coaxed back to scoring duties for it. If he enjoying writing in the style of that period for that one cue, maybe he would be willing to score the movie especially if Spielberg got a kick out of that cue too.

[Damien F 1,742]

@Jay Are you planning to record the movie's audio like you did with TROS? That was very useful to help us analyze the complete score before the home media release.

[TolkienSS 407]

6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I guess that was what happened and JW's end titles suite wasn't long enough for the credits. I assume they did track stuff from the score, as that has been the norm for big blockbusters for a few years.

 

I don't get it, the end titles are the easiest to score. Surely Williams' composition wasn't off by several minutes.

 

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 269]

10 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

 In one of the scenes I heard something that would fit to "Dirty Harry" or "Bullitt" or other Shiffrin's scores form 70's. Very unusual for Williams.

Williams is preparing for Spielberg's Bullitt remake by the sounds of it. Lol

[BrotherSound 2,242]

3 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I don't get it, the end titles are the easiest to score. Surely Williams' composition wasn't off by several minutes.

 

The end titles are often one of the very last things to be completed for a film, and it seems pretty common that edits are required to get the music to time out properly, at least in recent years.

[Tom 4,664]

I get that they are the last done, but one would think the number of people, etc. credited would be known well in advance.  After 8000 movies, one should be able to guess the end credit runtime down into the minute range. 

 

But, I have no idea how the industry works.  

[Pawel P. 738]

15 hours ago, DangerMotif said:

Any score highlights besides Helena’s theme? How was the music for the final shot? I heard a couple reviews mentioning it.

 

If I remember correctly, the music in the last scene was light as a feather and quite touching at the same time

 

It's hard for me to point out individual highlights, because there's a lot going on here. Besides, when watching the film, I didn't always focus enough on the music, because I was following the plot. For example, speaking about the scene with music similar to Spyders or Minority Report, I didn't remember it musically at all! 

 

Certainly, the greatest highlight are the adventure variations on Helena's Theme, the music accompanying fights and chases, two travel map pieces. The entire 20-minute opening sequence from 1944 is a glorious Williams' tour de force, with few very thrilling and exciting entrances of The Raider's March.

 

There is also a lot much more subtle fragments, full of arrangement flavors. Discovering it both in the film at the next screening (I have to wait for the premiere like everyone else) and on the CD will surely be fascinating!

[BB-8 3,479]

I've got myself tickets (July 1st)...comfy chair with Dolby Atmos.

 

 

[crumbs 14,317]

1 hour ago, Pawel P. said:

The entire 20-minute opening sequence from 1944 is a glorious Williams' tour de force, with few very thrilling and exciting entrances of The Raider's March.

 

Excitement levels... RISING.

 

But I'm dreading how heavily truncated this is going to be on the OST. I was disheartened for years by what he did to the Jungle Chase on the KOCS OST (and more recently the tour de force opening of TLJ).

 

Thankfully we eventually got most of that material clean, but I'll never understand why he cuts up these amazing long-form action cues.

[DangerMotif 1,038]

2 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

 

If I remember correctly, the music in the last scene was light as a feather and quite touching at the same time

 

It's hard for me to point out individual highlights, because there's a lot going on here. Besides, when watching the film, I didn't always focus enough on the music, because I was following the plot. For example, speaking about the scene with music similar to Spyders or Minority Report, I didn't remember it musically at all! 

 

Certainly, the greatest highlight are the adventure variations on Helena's Theme, the music accompanying fights and chases, two travel map pieces. The entire 20-minute opening sequence from 1944 is a glorious Williams' tour de force, with few very thrilling and exciting entrances of The Raider's March.

 

There is also a lot much more subtle fragments, full of arrangement flavors. Discovering it both in the film at the next screening (I have to wait for the premiere like everyone else) and on the CD will surely be fascinating!

Thank you.

How’s the Villian theme?

[Damien F 1,742]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

Excitement levels... RISING.

 

But I'm dreading how heavily truncated this is going to be on the OST. I was disheartened for years by what he did to the Jungle Chase on the KOCS OST (and more recently the tour de force opening of TLJ).

 

Thankfully we eventually got most of that material clean, but I'll never understand why he cuts up these amazing long-form action cues.

How the 20 minute tour-de-force opening sequence will probably be represented on the OST:

Prologue - 3:37

[crumbs 14,317]

11 minutes ago, Damien F said:

How the 20 minute tour-de-force opening sequence will probably be represented on the OST:

Prologue - 3:37

 

And it'll just be the opening titles 😅

 

Track 2: Helena's Theme!

[BB-8 3,479]

On 21/06/2023 at 12:47 PM, Pawel P. said:

Saw the movie on Monday.

 

If I had to compare the score to any of the previous parts in the series, I'd pick  "The Last Crusade". There was also really one leading new theme (Grail) and the compelling action music that dominated the score. There is even more of it here. Helena's Theme we hear more often in the film itself in adventure arrangements (that are really great) than the one we know from last concerts. It's only in its full "Golden Age" glory during the end credits.

 

But there is a lot going on here, it is dynamic and dense, because there is no shortage of action in the movie. There are also some musical surprises. In one of the scenes I heard something that would fit to "Dirty Harry" or "Bullitt" or other Shiffrin's scores form 70's. Very unusual for Williams.  There's another theme, more exotic, similar to "Tintin". And a lot of "Raider's March" and twice

  Reveal hidden contents

"Marion's Theme"

 

 

The music is very intense, just like "The Last Crusade" mixed with "Tintin". And sometimes it rushes like "The Lost World". The music accompanying action scenes, with motifs accompanying the antagonists, is very intense and the whole score is very "busy" , if I may use such a word. Williams had a lot to do here. And must have had fun!

 

And there is theme related to the McGuffin - very simple one. 

 

I can't wait to hear the score from the album and I have no doubt that it will be a great listening experience.

 

Williams and Ross are listed as conductors.

 

And the movie itself? Without giving away any spoilers, I really liked it. A lot of humor, lots of action, with a solid emotion in the background. There were moments that really surprised me. The biggest acting star here is indeed the fantastic Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

 

Can't wait to see it again!

 

I'm especially happy and excited about those action takes of Helena's Theme!

[Edmilson 7,466]

It's unfortunate that we won't be able to hear the 20-minute epic action opening with its exciting performances of the Raiders March for about 60 years, all in the name of the sacred rule that "every JW album must contain only 75 minutes of music". 

 

Unless Mangold convices Disney to release an isolated score version of the movie like RJ did with TLJ, but I'm not hopeful.

[Thor 7,509]

Came back from the film a couple of hours ago.

 

Pawel likened it to THE LAST CRUSADE (which IMO is not only the best Indy score, but on my alltime top 10 JW list), but I'm afraid I didn't hear it. In fact, I felt quite the opposite. TLC is ripe with one individual setpiece after the other, containing longlined themes and clearcut beginnings, middles and ends. It's like a string of different concert pieces, both on album and in the film. DIAL, on the other hand, is far more in line with CRYSTAL SKULL, or the new STAR WARS scores -- i.e. 'contemporary' JW, with lots of small cells alternating and stacked on top of each other, like a puzzle. A short brass outburst there, a cymbal crash there, frenetic strings jumping around the scale. It's very busy, schizophrenic and -- to be honest -- very close to what I had expected.

 

That being said, there were some interesting nuggets here and there. "Helena's Theme", obviously, which is nice. Some references to existing Indy music, also beyond "Raiders". And -- interestingly -- a suspense ostinato fairly early on which sounded like it came right out of the MINORITY REPORT/WAR OF THE WORLDS school. Basically a version of the "Spyder" theme from MINORITY REPORT. That was cool.

 

There's also some setpiece music that is similar to "A Whirl Through Academe" from CRYSTAL SKULL or the swashbuckler sequence in TINTIN. I think JW played a bit from this in the surprise premiere performance. That was okay too.

 

I found the mix OK for a modern action blockbuster, but the most "actioney" sequences had the music mixed too low (I saw the film in IMAX, btw). So I'm looking forward to hearing this on the OST to find if my film impression holds up or not.

[filmmusic 1,836]

35 minutes ago, Thor said:

DIAL, on the other hand, is far more in line with CRYSTAL SKULL, or the new STAR WARS scores -- i.e. 'contemporary' JW, with lots of small cells alternating and stacked on top of each other, like a puzzle. A short brass outburst there, a cymbal crash there, frenetic strings jumping around the scale. It's very busy, schizophrenic and -- to be honest -- very close to what I had expected.

This is what I totally expect too, that's why I'm not so excited.

It seems in these last Star Wars scores and Indiana Jones one, they hired John Williams to bring a sense of unity with the other films, but there is no organic unity within each score. This is what I experienced with the Star Wars scores.

A tapestry with a theme here and a theme there.

Anyway, I'm waiting to hear this new score, to see if I'm right again about my feelings..

[Tom 4,664]

Thank for the thoughts, Thor.  A bit of cold water, but it is good for me to go in with tempered expectations.  I wonder if Williams's "small cell" approach is due to the nature of the process or a change in his approach.  It strikes me as the former, as modern directors cannot come even close to locking in an edit for these things.  

 

I was listening to Lost World's Visitor in San Diego the other day--what I masterclass in building a cue over the course of 7 minutes.  I was hoping the prologue would give us something akin to that.  

[Damien F 1,742]

I wouldn't really describe Thor's feedback as a bit of cold water but instead it corresponds with JW's recent scoring approach. I didn't go into TROS expecting another Battle of Yavin or Battle of Hoth but there is still loads of great music, including action cues, in that score. That score and TLJ are my benchmarks for what to expect in DoD.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

JW fans stop expecting JW’s music to inexplicably revert to how it sounded 40 years ago challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I honestly prefer his post 2000s style.  Anderton's Great Escape is better than any OT action cue

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

10 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I honestly prefer his post 2000s style.  Anderton's Great Escape is better than any OT action cue

 

I'd even venture to call it Great.

[Jay 37,369]

[Bellosh 3,419]

24 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Anderton's Great Escape is better than any OT action cue

 

 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

6 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

 

Don't really care for Battle of Hoth and Asteroid Field I rarely listen to on its own.  His modern style has so much going on, I'm always finding new details

[Edmilson 7,466]

I dunno, I'm kinda torn...

 

On one hand, I love stuff like Battle of Hoth, Desert Chase, Sail Barge Assault and the ToD action music. On the other, I do believe Visitor in San Diego might be the best JW action cue ever, and I also love the ferocity of his 97-2005 style. 

[Damien F 1,742]

12 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I dunno, I'm kinda torn...

 

On one hand, I love stuff like Battle of Hoth, Desert Chase, Sail Barge Assault and the ToD action music. On the other, I do believe Visitor in San Diego might be the best JW action cue ever, and I also love the ferocity of his 97-2005 style. 

 

Visitor in San Diego is on my gym playlist and I'm a big fan of it too, especially the final two minutes: the bongos, a few boom tishes, the statements of the island motif, rapid fire blasts from the brass, shrieks from the woodwinds, the repeating string glissandi. It is a sonic feast for the ears. I never tire of it.

[Tom 4,664]

1 hour ago, Taikomochi said:

JW fans stop expecting JW’s music to inexplicably revert to how it sounded 40 years ago challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

Yes, that is the obvious and most fair interpretation of our comments.  

[Pieter Boelen 740]

3 hours ago, Damien F said:

I wouldn't really describe Thor's feedback as a bit of cold water but instead it corresponds with JW's recent scoring approach. I didn't go into TROS expecting another Battle of Yavin or Battle of Hoth but there is still loads of great music, including action cues, in that score. That score and TLJ are my benchmarks for what to expect in DoD.

I relistened to TRoS the other day and it doesn't do anything for me.

Not one bit of it excites me.

Except the action version of the Emperor's Theme from the FYC and the Rey Training cue.

But on the whole it's just laaame.

I am so scared Indy 5 will follow suit.

KotCS wasn't too great either; not even in its complete form.

 

Come on!

Indy deserves better!

[Bellosh 3,419]

Idk TROS is so warm and inviting to listen to.  I love it.