Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The thematic material is pretty great.  Rise of Skywalker is one of his best themes of recent years

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

You are all so fucking out of your minds. Bye. For the 100th time. Candle on the cake.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

20 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

Idk TROS is so warm and inviting to listen to.  I love it.

The new concert suite is indeed warm and inviting.

But then that and Anthem of Evil barely get any air time on the released music.

To the point that I'm left wondering what's the use of writing new themes if you aren't going use them anyway.

The finale consisting of inappropriately used OT music doesn't help either.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

TROS feels like the man who scored my childhood giving me one last warm hug, but I definitely wouldn't complain if Dial of Destiny felt like another one.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

14 minutes ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

TROS feels like the man who scored my childhood giving me one last warm hug, but I definitely wouldn't complain if Dial of Destiny felt like another one.

It's the kiss on the cheek after a warm hug

[Brónach 1,302]

9 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I relistened to TRoS the other day and it doesn't do anything for me.

Not one bit of it excites me.

Except the action version of the Emperor's Theme from the FYC and the Rey Training cue.

But on the whole it's just laaame.

I am so scared Indy 5 will follow suit.

KotCS wasn't too great either; not even in its complete form.

 

Come on!

Indy deserves better!

 

 

don't do TROS dirty like that!

[Dave Norris 18]

16 hours ago, Thor said:

Came back from the film a couple of hours ago.

 

Pawel likened it to THE LAST CRUSADE (which IMO is not only the best Indy score, but on my alltime top 10 JW list), but I'm afraid I didn't hear it. In fact, I felt quite the opposite. TLC is ripe with one individual setpiece after the other, containing longlined themes and clearcut beginnings, middles and ends. It's like a string of different concert pieces, both on album and in the film. DIAL, on the other hand, is far more in line with CRYSTAL SKULL, or the new STAR WARS scores -- i.e. 'contemporary' JW, with lots of small cells alternating and stacked on top of each other, like a puzzle. A short brass outburst there, a cymbal crash there, frenetic strings jumping around the scale. It's very busy, schizophrenic and -- to be honest -- very close to what I had expected.

 

That being said, there were some interesting nuggets here and there. "Helena's Theme", obviously, which is nice. Some references to existing Indy music, also beyond "Raiders". And -- interestingly -- a suspense ostinato fairly early on which sounded like it came right out of the MINORITY REPORT/WAR OF THE WORLDS school. Basically a version of the "Spyder" theme from MINORITY REPORT. That was cool.

 

There's also some setpiece music that is similar to "A Whirl Through Academe" from CRYSTAL SKULL or the swashbuckler sequence in TINTIN. I think JW played a bit from this in the surprise premiere performance. That was okay too.

 

I found the mix OK for a modern action blockbuster, but the most "actioney" sequences had the music mixed too low (I saw the film in IMAX, btw). So I'm looking forward to hearing this on the OST to find if my film impression holds up or not.

It wasn’t a version of Deploying the Spyders it WAS Deploying the Spyders. I also heard a cue from 1941 tucked away in there and some of Tintin. Someone liked the temp track a little too much me thinks & some of it has ended up in the movie (which btw was a complete and crushing disappointment to me-shes irritating as is the kid & I didn’t really buy into the McGuffin which is basically a brass compass). I wanted to love it but didn’t unfortunately 
‘Not my Indiana Jones’ 

[Thor 7,508]

18 minutes ago, Dave Norris said:

It wasn’t a version of Deploying the Spyders it WAS Deploying the Spyders. I also heard a cue from 1941 tucked away in there and some of Tintin. Someone liked the temp track a little too much me thinks & some of it has ended up in the movie (which btw was a complete and crushing disappointment to me-shes irritating as is the kid & I didn’t really buy into the McGuffin which is basically a brass compass). I wanted to love it but didn’t unfortunately 
‘Not my Indiana Jones’ 

 

A-ha! That makes sense. So weird. Off the top of my head, I can't immediately remember any other Williams-scored films where some of his earlier music has simply been tracked in, but then I'm not an expert on such things.

[Damien F 1,742]

5 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

A-ha! That makes sense. So weird. Off the top of my head, I can't immediately remember any other Williams-scored films where some of his earlier music has simply been tracked in, but then I'm not an expert on such things.

Attack of the Clones had TPM cues, although that was obviously part of the Star Wars saga so not a totally separate score like Minority Report is to DoD.

[Brónach 1,302]

26 minutes ago, Dave Norris said:

It wasn’t a version of Deploying the Spyders it WAS Deploying the Spyders. I also heard a cue from 1941 tucked away in there and some of Tintin.

 

O_o

[Holko 9,526]

17 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

A-ha! That makes sense. So weird. Off the top of my head, I can't immediately remember any other Williams-scored films where some of his earlier music has simply been tracked in, but then I'm not an expert on such things.

It's not tracked in in DOD, it's changed and newly recorded, it's in one of the clips they released.

 

RotJ tracks in ESB, AotC tracks in TPM, RotS tracks in TPM and AotC, TROS tracks in RotJ, maybe TFA and who the hell knows what else.

[Damien F 1,742]

If @Dave Norris is referring to the music from the scene in that We Need To Get Out Of Here clip, then I agree, it isn't tracked from Minority Report but is a new recording that sounds VERY similar.

[ragoz350 450]

Actually, I don't mind the closeness to temp-tracks. JW probably sees this score as his last major work, and doesn't mind going back to old (albeit suggested) ideas. Of course, it's sadder when music is copied from other Indy movies, but The Spyders from Minority Report and The Duel from Tintin are almost "one-cue" ideas in the original scores, so I'm ready to any development (even minimal) of these.

[Brónach 1,302]

i think it's entirely stupid to have a john williams temp track in this movie, but it's less stupid than using an indy temp track

[Thor 7,508]

Wouldn't that be even weirder? If they rerecorded "Spyders", I mean? If so, who recorded it? No way Williams himself would rerecord "Spyders" for use in DOD.

[Damien F 1,742]

16 minutes ago, Thor said:

Wouldn't that be even weirder? If they rerecorded "Spyders", I mean? If so, who recorded it? No way Williams himself would rerecord "Spyders" for use in DOD.

 

A rerecording of Spyders in DOD seems to me to be a very similar situation to the The Intersection Scene music from WOTW being rerecorded for KOTCS.

[Thor 7,508]

Interesting. How does that happen? Do they assemble an orchestra prior to or after Williams gets involved, rerecord some things that were on the temp track, with some other conductor? Why not simply use the existing "Spyders" recording, and have a clever music editor fit it all in?

[TolkienSS 407]

22 minutes ago, Thor said:

Wouldn't that be even weirder? If they rerecorded "Spyders", I mean? If so, who recorded it? No way Williams himself would rerecord "Spyders" for use in DOD.

 

Why not?

The only thing that we know for sure about the scoring process, that James Mangold said several times now, is that Williams originally didn't want to do it all, but contribute themes. And then he "kept writing". Probably out of duty to his second biggest franchise.

The shooting and cutting of this film was messy as hell, and he's fricking 91 years old.

Remember what he said about the Star Wars prequels (Episode III I think), "I initially thought my god, how am I going to write this much?"

And that was nearly 20 years ago, at the spry age of 70.

 

If he originally wanted to do themes because he deemed the entire movie too taxing, then did it anyway, and then the madness of cutting several Versions of the film, it would not at all be surprising if temp was recorded nearly verbatim.

Or if there was no more time and money to rescore, and Williams took the temp, like the Tintin piece, and slightly Indy-fied it.

 

The other possibility is that Williams recorded temp for the hell of it. And we know that this wouldn't happen in a regular John Williams scoring process. Especially not for Indiana Jones.

[Tom 4,661]

 

[Thor 7,508]

I don't get it, Tom.

[Jay 37,369]

Guys Minority Report's recording IS NOT TRACKED INTO DIAL OF DESTINY!

 

The new cue simply sounds similar to the old cue

 

Listen to the differences yourself:

 

 

 

 

[Damien F 1,742]

Exactly. I can understand it might be difficult for @Dave Norris to discern this in the cinema but comparing the two clips above it is clear it isn't tracked.

[Tom 4,661]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

I don't get it, Tom.

Ron cries "Why spiders."  

[Richard Penna 3,694]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

If he originally wanted to do themes because he deemed the entire movie too taxing, then did it anyway, and then the madness of cutting several Versions of the film, it would not at all be surprising if temp was recorded nearly verbatim.

Or if there was no more time and money to rescore, and Williams took the temp, like the Tintin piece, and slightly Indy-fied it.

 

It's surprising, but when we're not talking about anything Tolkien-related, we tend to agree on this sort of thing.

 

Williams is not the composer he was 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago and the demands of the modern filmmaking process demand so much more of an artist. Anyone who thinks that he was given free reign of composing time and was never at any point pressured (either by director or time) into responding to the temp track, is kidding themselves into a romantic view of the composing process, because they so badly want it to have gone the same way as the original Indy movies.

 

He also doesn't have the same inspirational starting point or young (ish)mind he had in the 80s when coming up with the now cinematic classic set pieces.

 

What I hope for is an engaging listen on album and a few nice new pieces. I'm not expecting Last Crusade #2.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

3 hours ago, Holko said:

It's not tracked in in DOD, it's changed and newly recorded, it's in one of the clips they released.

 

RotJ tracks in ESB, AotC tracks in TPM, RotS tracks in TPM and AotC, TROS tracks in RotJ, maybe TFA and who the hell knows what else.

 

And TFA tracks ANH 

 

1 hour ago, Damien F said:

A rerecording of Spyders in DOD seems to me to be a very similar situation to the The Intersection Scene music from WOTW being rerecorded for KOTCS.

 

Good call, although that was at least related to aliens and felt like Spielberg and Williams having a little joke. These are more random. 

 

Honestly I'm now of the mindset that all these apparent tracking instances are just gonna make this score more fun to go through. It's pretty funny. 1941?! Maybe his whole career's in here.

[Damien F 1,742]

12 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Williams is not the composer he was 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago and the demands of the modern filmmaking process demand so much more of an artist.

 

I wonder if Spielberg was directing, would he have insulated JW to some extent from the difficulties of the modern filmmaking process. Or perhaps Spielberg himself would have sufficiently planned the movie so it wouldn't require loads of late stage re-editing as is typical nowadays for blockbusters.

 

The last time JW scored a live action Spielberg film of this scale was KOTCS.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

It's a nice thought but I don't think even SS is in a position to insulate anyone from the chaos of a modern post-production process.

 

Nowadays, if a composer does not want to be subject to last minute changes, following the temp and other difficulties, they shouldn't write for film. JW may have collaborated heavily with someone who in the past has shown vastly more respect for his process than most directors, but it doesn't mean Hollywood will bend over backwards to lock the movie 6 months before scoring so as not to upset Williams. He knew what he would potentally have to do when he signed up.

[Tom 4,661]

28 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

He also doesn't have the same inspirational starting point or young (ish)mind he had in the 80s when coming up with the now cinematic classic set pieces.

 

I thought Of Grit and Glory was as good as many of his classic set pieces, and he seemed to compose that is a very short period of time.  

[Pieter Boelen 740]

7 hours ago, Brónach said:

 

 

don't do TROS dirty like that!

Please tell me other highlights.

I would love to love it more.

 

Probably doesn't help that I am thoroughly disappointed by the movie too.

TLJ had me genuinely curious what'd come next.

TRoS wasn't it.

[Jay 37,369]

Whether or not I like a film has nothing to do with whether or not I like a score

[Pieter Boelen 740]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Whether or not I like a film has nothing to do with whether or not I like a score

I feel like John Williams is affected more by the quality of the film than, say, Jerry Goldsmith.

On TRoS, and KotCS too, I have the impression the movies coloured the score in unfortunate ways.

[DangerMotif 1,038]

3 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I feel like John Williams is affected more by the quality of the film than, say, Jerry Goldsmith.

On TRoS, and KotCS too, I have the impression the movies coloured the score in unfortunate ways.

The use of some themes in TROS is ridiculous 

[Damien F 1,742]

16 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Please tell me other highlights.

I would love to love it more.

 

Probably doesn't help that I am thoroughly disappointed by the movie too.

TLJ had me genuinely curious what'd come next.

TRoS wasn't it.

Have you listened to the FYC? I think that's vital to appreciating the score. The OST is really a terrible representation of the score and is missing loads of highlights some of which are on the FYC 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

Nowadays, if a composer does not want to be subject to last minute changes, following the temp and other difficulties, they shouldn't write for film.

 

This.

[TolkienSS 407]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Guys Minority Report's recording IS NOT TRACKED INTO DIAL OF DESTINY!

 

The new cue simply sounds similar to the old cue

 

Listen to the differences yourself:

 

 

 

 

 

It's the same composition with literally 80% identical orchestration. 

Tracked or not makes little difference.

[Jay 37,369]

I think there is a HUGE difference between a production tracking in music recorded for another film (from another studio) to be used as underscore, vs having new music recorded which bears a striking resemblance to an existing composition

[Damien F 1,742]

I personally think there is a big difference between tracked music and "80% identical orchestration".

As a Williams completest, I'd want the new version to be released just like I want both versions of the similar music that was used in WOTW and KOTCS, or AOTC and COS.

 

Tracked music could also mean the director potentially disregarded an original cue that JW had written and just replaced it with an existing cue from another movie. That is much more egregious than a similar rerecording.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I'd certainly rather have a new piece of score recorded, but modelled after a prior cue, than just track the other cue in.

 

But that's sort of another discussion - this one is just acknowledging that he's copied himself here, just like he did for KotCS and CoS. Change the odd note, sure, and the overall structure of the cue as a whole is new, but the basic compositional idea has been lifted.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think there is a HUGE difference between a production tracking in music recorded for another film (from another studio) to be used as underscore, vs having new music recorded which bears a striking resemblance to an existing composition

 

It is a difference of finances and contracting and logistics and rights and money - the end outcome for the movie and for the viewer is not substantially different.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

It does make a difference in terms of people wanting the cue in their playlists, I've noticed. A cue modelled almost entirely on prexisting music, but still newly recorded, and people want it because it's technically 'new' music from John Williams. (and half the board is pretending to themselves that 'of course the maestro never copies...')

 

But just track the original cue in instead, and now it's 'evil tracked music' despite the creative effect and enjoyment being identical.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

52 minutes ago, Damien F said:

Have you listened to the FYC? I think that's vital to appreciating the score. The OST is really a terrible representation of the score and is missing loads of highlights some of which are on the FYC 

I listened to my personal edit of OST+FYC.

It didn't work.

Though you're right the FYC contains the coolest bit in the score.

Falcon Flight is so nice!

[TolkienSS 407]

57 minutes ago, Damien F said:

I personally think there is a big difference between tracked music and "80% identical orchestration".

As a Williams completest, I'd want the new version to be released just like I want both versions of the similar music that was used in WOTW and KOTCS, or AOTC and COS.

 

Tracked music could also mean the director potentially disregarded an original cue that JW had written and just replaced it with an existing cue from another movie. That is much more egregious than a similar rerecording.

 

Recording pre-existing cues with tweaks is not in any way detrimental to JW as a composer if the circumstances called for it.

It speaks to the process of the production more than it does about JW.

1 hour ago, Damien F said:

Have you listened to the FYC? I think that's vital to appreciating the score. The OST is really a terrible representation of the score and is missing loads of highlights some of which are on the FYC 

 

I never got this mindset. And before I continue, no, I don't think TLJ is a dissapointing score.

If a restaurant menu had 20 dishes, and 10 of them taste bland, and the other 10 taste good, is it a great restaurant? Especially if the 10 good ones were never intended for the menu?

I can always order the ones that taste good, but it doesn't make it a great restaurant, and I can't blame people who get the bland food and don't come back.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

7 hours ago, Holko said:

RotJ tracks in ESB, AotC tracks in TPM, RotS tracks in TPM and AotC, TROS tracks in RotJ, maybe TFA and who the hell knows what else.

TLJ technically tracks TFA if you count the reused main title recording.
 

TROS went absolutely nuts with tracking from other episodes. Some instances are only a couple seconds, and some are quite lengthy:

 

The Force Awakens (11)

 

1M1A Starry Night

3M26R You’re Han Solo (x2)

4M36R I Ran Into You

5M46R Kylo Stalks Rey

6M50R Han and Leia Reunion

6M56E Ren in Cockpit

7M65B Father And Son

7M67B Rey Gets Sabre

8M77 March of the Resistance

 

The Last Jedi (8)

 

1M9 Revisiting Snoke (x2)

2M18A Holdo’s Secret Plan

3M22 Fun With Finn and Rose

4M36 Luke and Rey

5M48 Insert

9M85A Insert - Rey Looks

0M8 Saying Goodbye to the Fathier

 

Revenge of the Sith (3)

 

7M3 The Birth of the Twins (x2)

7M5 Plans for the Twins

 

Return of the Jedi (1)

 

13M2 Vader’s Death

 

Total: 20 unique tracked cues, 23 instances

[Damien F 1,742]

20 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

I never got this mindset. And before I continue, no, I don't think TLJ is a dissapointing score.

If a restaurant menu had 20 dishes, and 10 of them taste bland, and the other 10 taste good, is it a great restaurant? Especially if the 10 good ones were never intended for the menu?

I can always order the ones that taste good, but it doesn't make it a great restaurant, and I can't blame people who get the bland food and don't come back.

 

i think this is the difference between discussing a score vs discussing its OST. I'm a big fan of the TROS score not just the subset of it that was included on the OST. In fact, I think the OST is one of worst presentations of a JW score in recent years. But my dislike of the OST doesn't mean I dislike the score. Thankfully, the FYC fills some of the gaps.

 

KOTCS is similar. The complete score really opens up the score which its presentation on the OST didn't allow it to do.

[Holko 9,526]

Presenting half a score with individual pieces ripped out of context, it's very easy to see how they may not work as well as parts of the whole when they all slot together as intended.

[Faleel 5,353]

41 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

I don't think a mindset is dissapointing

 

I never got a restaurant menu

 

TLJ had 20 dishes, and 10 of them taste bland

 

I can always order a great restaurant, and I can't blame the bland food and come back.

A representation of the TROS OST:

[Falstaft 2,132]

2 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Please tell me other highlights.

I would love to love it more.

 

At the risk of further derailing a thread on Indy V, here's a series of threads we had appreciating various aspects of TROS , which I, FWIW, feel is the strongest overall ST score.

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32015-falcon-flight-from-ep-9-data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==

appreciation/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33029-beautiful-one-off-melodies-from-ep-9-appreciation-thread/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32543-psalm-of-the-sith-aka-anthem-of-evil-from-ep-9-appreciation/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32486-advice-from-ep-9-appreciation/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32036-the-old-death-star-from-ep-9-appreciation-thread/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/31991-a-new-home-from-sw-episode-9-appreciation/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32821-knights-of-ren-motif-appreciation-thread/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32790-farewell-from-ep-9-appreciation/

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33143-the-emperors-theme-in-ep-9-appreciation-and-poll/

[Garrett 153]

7 hours ago, Thor said:

Wouldn't that be even weirder? If they rerecorded "Spyders", I mean? If so, who recorded it? No way Williams himself would rerecord "Spyders" for use in DOD.

Look guys, I’ve listened to both, and the new track isn’t the same as Spyders. It just isn’t.

 

The Spyders motif ends on one dramatic note with each repetition: the minor third of the scale.

 

The “We Need to Get Out of Here” motif alternates between two different endings: every even variation is identical to Spyders, but every odd variation ends on two or six dramatic notes: the major third followed by the minor third in rapid succession.

 

The Spyders motif does not utilize the major third of the scale at any point.

 

I personally prefer the new ending with the major third. It makes it sound more frantic. It seems that John Williams took inspiration from his old Spyders motif, and improved it.

 

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

Maybe we should just wait for the OST to compare the two tracks and... Oh, wait. There's a huge chance that this cue will actually be unreleased 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

It's not really that different from Ludlow motif popping up in like eight scores with superficial variations. But Spyders is even more distinctive so it sticks out.