When People Discredit Music Because It Is By A Film Composer...

[Joe Brausam 215]

And so an injustice has been done. I went to sign up for my spot in our weekly recital series here at my school and I submitted my piece to the coordinator. I was going to be performing the Nocturne from Williams' Horn Concerto.

As soon as the coordinator read it he promptly refused to approve it on the basis of "this is not acceptable, I can't have people performing movie themes at this school. It discredits us."

And so I tried to argue that this was a CONCERTO and not a piece of film music and even if it were film music, how does that discredit the school? But he would here none of that. So in short hello Franz Strauss, bye bye Mr. Williams...

How often do YOU hear something like this!?

[Quintus 5,399]

You should've just butted him into submission. End of story, everyones happy.

[GoodMusician 56]

that's why I don't deal with damned music schools anymore.

I went to Stetson University here in Florida and the... amount of snobbery...and just plain... idiocy they had about music...I just gave up...

You even mention John Williams and they say "Who'd he steal from this time?"

And they get away with it because they are conditioned to say it, believe it, and just spread it. And it's venom. Pure and simple. And I'm just... I'll have n part in it.

You can't even argue with them about it... or have a real conversation about it. I wasw AFRAID to say I loved John Williams for this reason. My composition teacher, who LOVED really bad music... (I'm sorry but banging a pan or playing a harmonic sequence through a frying pan is not music. It's sound. It can be used in music. But alone, its a sound) didn't like John Williams and would cringe everytime I brought music I liked of his. He would then try to over analyze it...to make me see how horrible and dumb it was.

And then we'd get into the class, and the things he'd say JW did, he'd tell us to do...so it was like "You're an idiot."

And quite frankly,I hate classical music. I can't stand it. It's so boring. I can't even watch fantasia because it puts me to sleep. The pieces I like are few and far between. I don't mind performing them, but listening ::yawn::

But John Williams? I love it. It is so much more real to me than anything else.

And you can't say that for many composers... even those idiots at yours or my old school.

[Quintus 5,399]

On the contrary, I love a lot of classical music. But I love John Williams music more.

[GoodMusician 56]

I dont mind performing the pieces. That keeps me awake. It's just hearing most of them is just... so... blah.

I was gonna say it's because there's no image going through my mind... and so if I've perfomed it, or am performing it, I'm concentrating on how I played it ...or how I'm playing it.

Where as listening, if I've not performed the piece... I don't care... there's no image... just...makes me tired. Thats how I would put myself to sleep at night was listen to NPR and the classical channel. So when I tried studying it ... it just put me to sleep lol.

But John Williams music... to me... comes from such a different place. For one, tehre are images invovled, so my inner eye is seeing images. At the same time, it just feels so much more raw... natural.

Classical music to me at times can feel so... forced or unnatural. And at the same time, covers sooo many sound scapes. Where as John Williams tends to stick to one per film... or genre.

I dunno. I perfer music to a story... but at the same time (hence why I mention fantasia) classical music still doesn't do it for me as well as JW does.

I just... I can't understand why people at schools like that can be like that. I guess it's because they are in an environment that promotes such a temperment and attitude. Being "above" the common folk... like there is some class distinction or some shit.

I feel bad for people who actually stay at schools like that because it's just sad... I'm sorry that you have to go through that.

[Joe Brausam 215]

You would think that by this point in time that it would become more accepted as a genre. There is no denying that very much great music has come from film scores, not just by Williams, but by many composers. I know there is a lot of shit out there that passes for film music, but why should that bring down the genre as a whole? Even worse, why should a composer be demeaned just becuase he writes primarily for films?

I would love for my school to be more accepting of it...I have been planning to do the complete concerto as part of my senior recital. But even if they don't accept it I'm still going to go through with the program, I want to teach music goshdarnit and they're not gonna stop me! Plus...when I teach...who's to say that I can't broaden kids horizons and introduce them to some of this great stuff? I'd like for there to be hope for the future!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But John Williams music... to me... (...) it just feels so much more raw... natural.

Classical music to me at times can feel so... forced or unnatural.

That's odd. You'd think it would be the other way around, since a classical symphony doesn't have to fit into a pattern determined by a director and an editor.

And so an injustice has been done. I went to sign up for my spot in our weekly recital series here at my school and I submitted my piece to the coordinator. I was going to be performing the Nocturne from Williams' Horn Concerto.

As soon as the coordinator read it he promptly refused to approve it on the basis of "this is not acceptable, I can't have people performing movie themes at this school. It discredits us."

And so I tried to argue that this was a CONCERTO and not a piece of film music and even if it were film music, how does that discredit the school? But he would here none of that. So in short hello Franz Strauss, bye bye Mr. Williams...

What a load of shite.

Not only do I think saying playing film music would "discredit" a musical recital is a bunch of bullcrap, but to bluntly dismiss a concerto piece, just because it was composed by someone whose fame primarily comes from scoring movies sounds like having your head stuck up your ass.

Maybe you should've told your teacher it was by that other John Williams...

[Red 75]

That's just plain disgusting, Joey. Discrediting a piece of music just because it was written by a film composer is about as elitist as it gets.

[Neimoidian 14]

It is sort of ignorance from the part of the scholars. Wojciech Kilar once said that it is not important whether the music is a grand classical mass or a simple folk tune, but just whether it is truly coming from the heart of an artist.

However, while I read lots of comments on this forum, I can see in them the similar approach to the music that doesn't follow classical rules. If it doesn't have multiple layers or if it doesn't use complex harmonies, counterpoints and stuff... it is a music of worse cathegory. If a composer mostly focus on single instruments and not on the full orchestra it is bad. If one uses synthesizer it is an insult. And so forth...

For me - music has to have emotional anchor. While I like the perfection and complexity of Williams's work (thus he is my favourite film composer) I also immensly enjoy music that comes from people who don't have classical education in music, but nevertheless feel the music. Such a people can come up with something that sounds extraordinary and still is emotionally powerful. Even if they sometimes resort to banging on the frying pan.

[Ollie 1,059]

I'm sure everytime Williams hears that sort of criticism he chuckles to himself and lights a cigar with a $1000 dollar bill.

While it sucks you can't play the music you want I'd say ignore it and don't sweat it.

I can remember in high school in my art class we had to submit a drawing for some competition and I submitted an ink drawing of a space battle featuring ships from Star Wars and Star Trek (I have no idea why I drew that). My art teacher didn't like it and wanted to me to submit drawings of fruit and other artsy crap. I held my ground and said that was the only pic I have and I'm submitting it.

I won 2nd place.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

However, while I read lots of comments on this forum, I can see in them the similar approach to the music that doesn't follow classical rules. If it doesn't have multiple layers or if it doesn't use complex harmonies, counterpoints and stuff... it is a music of worse cathegory. If a composer mostly focus on single instruments and not on the full orchestra it is bad. If one uses synthesizer it is an insult. And so forth...

For me - music has to have emotional anchor. While I like the perfection and complexity of Williams's work (thus he is my favourite film composer) I also immensly enjoy music that comes from people who doesn't have classical education in music, but nevertheless feel the music.

Oh yes, I agree with that. Especially the first part in this case. We complain about classical elitism, yet we don't shy away from looking down upon other types of music for whatever reason, founded or unfounded. I know I can be guilty of that.

[nightscape94 965]

You should complain to whoever is in charge. The coordinator obviously has something against "film composers" which is a silly term anyway. The piece you originally chose was a particular movement from a horn concerto by a well-known composer, John Williams. He shouldn't be able to be selective about what you can or cannot pick, especially when it's a concerto by one of the greats, whether he wants to see it that way or not, it's the truth.

I say go to someone else in the school, and make a formal complaint.

Tim

[Ollie 1,059]

I'm sure my daughter feels the same way when I ask her to turn her crappy music down because it's too loud.

[Jeshopk 8]

Play the Horn Concerto. Stand up defiantly in the face of prejudice. If you are failed, take it to higher authorities within the school, then sue the school. I am serious.

[Red 75]

That's just taking it too seriously.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

No, I agree. Take it to someone higher up and don't back down!

By the way, I didn't know you were a fellow horn player. Cool.

Ray Barnsbury

[Joe Brausam 215]

Well I'm just going to do the Franz Strauss Nocturno for this, but I'm definately going to do the Williams concerto for my senior recital, even if I do have to fight for it. Its just frustrating that people are so ignorant.

Haha and I didn't know that you played horn either Ray.

[Morlock 11]

I hear that often. I find that nodding alone, not paying any specific attention to the accusations and try belittling the idea of such accusations works the best. You can't lose an argument if you act like yo udon't take the other guy seriously enough to give his arguments the time of day.

[ChuckM 1]

And so an injustice has been done. . . .

That's pretty un-cool. The problem is, whenever you like something that is different than what the majority of people in the world like, you end up getting criticized for it. Whether there is a legitimate reason for that or not. And nine times out of ten, the people criticizing don't even know a thing about what they are criticizing. They just hear other people saying stuff about it and assume it's true.

Take a look at my avatar. I get criticized all the time for the DeLorean being my favorite car. The first thing everyone brings up is "Wasn't John DeLorean a drug dealer?" or "Don't those cars break down all the time?" or "Man, those doors must be a pain in close parking." And if they did even the slightest bit of research, they would find out that none of those accusations are true! [/rant]

[scissorhands 16]

And I thought music schools were more open-minded in America... Many teachers here don't even know the name of that Williams guy.

Go ahead with the horn concerto, Joey! Good luck.

[John Crichton 4]

Joey, I have two words you might want to try using if the same situation ever crops up again: Get stuffed. And then play the Horn Concerto anyway.

[Ollie 1,059]

I was thinking of something a little more colorful myself.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I say go to someone else in the school, and make a formal complaint.

Yeah, that usually does it.

[Red 75]

I'm glad my orchestra teacher isn't like that (to that degree). She has admitted to "loving" the "Raiders March".

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I went to my first Aural class and was jolted awake halfway through when the teacher said "...Williams scores..." and proceeded to play a very simple chord progression. He then played the Superman theme, Luke's (Star Wars) theme and the E.T. flying theme all with this simple progression, saying "so few notes, so much money. I'm not bitter!". He's a good teacher, a nice guy and he kind of had a point (it's always the "simpler" and more accessible themes that are popular and ergo, produce copious royalties), but the themes in question are actually written with several altered chords and suspensions; Okay, so the very, very basic musical idea is a simplistic progression, but it's how Williams altered it that makes it good music. ANY tonal music can essentially be broken down into these fundamental chords - it's in our blood, in our Western-trained ear. You can break down Beethoven in a matter of minutes. It would take significantly longer to break down Williams.

Having said that, how one composer is somehow inferior to another simply for his popularity and the alleged uncomplexity of his music is ludicrous, particularly as the latter is, obviously, not the case.

Anyway, at this point he went on about Andrew Lloyd Webber's flagrant shoplifting of ideas and I promptly fell asleep again.

[Jediwashington 59]

I find it disappointing that the classical community heralds programmatic music, but only if it's a ballet or opera. Try and throw film music in there or many musicals, and they raise their noses and look the other way.

I also think theres a bit of jealousy among the classical community, as film score composers actually make a living, unlike many art composers.

It's just sad that music educators of the highest caliber cannot embrace all music. That they must hold a grudge against certain genres simply because they have locked tempos and a different style. A very high double standard from a community that usually heralds itself as Liberal.

What colleges are these? I'm looking around for schools right now, and I'd like to know this.

~JW

[Joe Brausam 215]

Mine is ----------. I also studied at Towson University for a semester, but the problem is at -------.

Its a really good school otherwise, I'm not sure of the positions of other faculty members on film music though. I know my horn teacher loves Catch Me If You Can, but thats just one person. Hmm, I wonder how she's going to feel about this when I tell her!

[Maestro 147]

Williams has stated on several occasions that the "simple," most inevitable melodies are the hardest to write. Yeah, wow, we can play the chord progression after the fact and say how lacking in complexity it is, but good memorable themes are probably the hardest thing to write. It's part incredibly technical skill and part absolute inspiration.

[nicholas 1]

The avant garde establishment (now there's an oxymoron!) scorns commercial success as much as they do the genre of film music - perhaps its the reason why they disapprove of film composers. They would just as strongly disapprove of Michael Nyman (in his capacity as a "serious" composer) and - heaven forbid - Karl Jenkins as they would John Williams. The view is still pervasive that poverty produces quality and wealth only mediocrity and decadence.

[Morn 8]

I find it disappointing that the classical community heralds programmatic music, but only if it's a ballet or opera. Try and throw film music in there or many musicals, and they raise their noses and look the other way.

I also think theres a bit of jealousy among the classical community, as film score composers actually make a living, unlike many art composers.

It's just sad that music educators of the highest caliber cannot embrace all music. That they must hold a grudge against certain genres simply because they have locked tempos and a different style. A very high double standard from a community that usually heralds itself as Liberal.

What colleges are these? I'm looking around for schools right now, and I'd like to know this.

~JW

That's a very interesting point, as I've read that performers tend to get more respect and fame than contemporary composers in classical music, and it's performers who make the money I guess too. I think part of the problem is contemporary composers often focus on academic qualities of the music exclusively without thinking about their actual audience. John Adams is an exception and his music is both popular and quality, that's what should be done.

Anyway, there's a lot of shit film music. But a bunch of ingenious high quality music in the 75 year or so history of film music. The quantity and success of a lot of the shit music.... though I think affects the respect the genre gets in classical music.

[Hlao-roo 389]

In a blog post at Guardian Unlimited, Tristan Jakob-Hoff decries Classic FM's classification of film music as classical music:

Whether a piece is classical or not has nothing to do with the forces involved, but with the way in which it is intended to be listened to. Classical music is designed to be considered, contemplated and - being the most abstract of all the art forms - to provoke a truly subjective response in each of its listeners. Film music, on the other hand, is meant to accompany moving pictures, to provide an objective commentary to the on-screen action. Robbed of that on-screen imagery, it loses much of its meaning.

The question is, what exactly is Classic FM trying to teach its listeners? That classical music is defined by its surface characteristics? That it lacks depth? That it is safely predictable and readily understandable? If that is their mission, then they're clearly succeeding, but I can't help but feel sorry for their listeners. The classical canon is a bottomless treasure chest, available to anyone who cares to pry it open - just don't let the fool's gold flogged by Classic FM put you off exploring the true riches beyond.

[Incanus 5,716]

I think denying you the right to perform Williams' concert work is just plain classical elitism and snobbery. By the definition that film composers are not eligible to be performed your coordinator should also automatically deny the performance of many of the 20th century and 21st century composers like Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Walton, Corigliano etc. as they have sullied their good name in dabbling in film music.

Unfortunately this demeaning attitude is bred into the bones of these people and nothing can change that in their case. Maybe a few generations of music students who are more open minded will breed this vile prejudice from the classically trained musicians.

Oh and I have to say that some of the modern art music is too artsy fartsy for its own good. I guess you might feel elevated by someone scraping a frying pan with a fork and joddling along while stamping on a weasel that squeaks in agony but I am not that person. If people want to exchange beauty and artistry in music for unnecessary pursuit of oddity and producing the most bizarre sounds imaginable just for the sake of being original then it is fine by me. But I do not have to like it or even appreciate it.

And this Tristan Jakob-Hoff fellow seems like the worst kind of snob. His definition of film music is that it is empty of meaning, totally shallow and too predictable and readily understandable. And classical music is not predictable? Formula upon formula is forced upon classical music and the conventions of classical music have been transferred into film music so if there is predictability then it is close kin to "classical" music. And if film music is easily understandable I would think it as a merit rather than something to be viled. It shows how a common musical grammar and language known to Western ear runs still strong in it. It is a musical vocabulary for emotion, movement and drama. And if someone really states that film music is in a stand still they have only to listen to the myriad solutions different composers take to score similar scenes. And there is that much vaunted invention in film music too despite it being "readily listenable and understandable submusic for people with vulgar and simple tastes". And if film music as tied it is to its context is bad and only "surface" then all music tied to a programme of any sort be it a ballet or opera or anything similar is also bad music. These allegations are just demeaning and it is truly a shame that film music is not seen as a great continuum for classical tradition and it is taking this music into new directions and frontiers albeit it is tied to the medium of film. But therein lies the artistry of the best film composers, to write music that resonates on screen and off.

[Henry B 50]

that's why I don't deal with damned music schools anymore.

I went to Stetson University here in Florida and the... amount of snobbery...and just plain... idiocy they had about music...I just gave up...

You even mention John Williams and they say "Who'd he steal from this time?"

And they get away with it because they are conditioned to say it, believe it, and just spread it. And it's venom. Pure and simple. And I'm just... I'll have n part in it.

You can't even argue with them about it... or have a real conversation about it. I wasw AFRAID to say I loved John Williams for this reason. My composition teacher, who LOVED really bad music... (I'm sorry but banging a pan or playing a harmonic sequence through a frying pan is not music. It's sound. It can be used in music. But alone, its a sound) didn't like John Williams and would cringe everytime I brought music I liked of his. He would then try to over analyze it...to make me see how horrible and dumb it was.

And then we'd get into the class, and the things he'd say JW did, he'd tell us to do...so it was like "You're an idiot."

Yeah, you're right on. There's definitely a lot of snobbery toward Williams in the classical community. People should learn to appreciate music for what it is, not where it comes from. I totally agree with y--

And quite frankly,I hate classical music. I can't stand it. It's so boring. I can't even watch fantasia because it puts me to sleep. The pieces I like are few and far between. I don't mind performing them, but listening ::yawn::

....................................... Oh.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I was in italy at this time that year, but that music director sucks.

He dismissed a clasical concerto not film music, what a fool.

If Miguel read this, he must have rolled in his seat.

[MrScratch 294]

You should go to the school board (or whoever is in charge) and cry censorship, that's basically what it is. Williams is a credible classical composer, his non-film work has been performed by major orchestras all over the world. Your teacher is biased, you should also name the countless composers who were unappreciated or dismissed in their own time but who are heralded today and say it is not the teachers place to make such judgments.

[Delorean90 42]

that's why I don't deal with damned music schools anymore.

I went to Stetson University here in Florida and the... amount of snobbery...and just plain... idiocy they had about music...I just gave up...

You even mention John Williams and they say "Who'd he steal from this time?"

And they get away with it because they are conditioned to say it, believe it, and just spread it. And it's venom. Pure and simple. And I'm just... I'll have n part in it.

You can't even argue with them about it... or have a real conversation about it. I wasw AFRAID to say I loved John Williams for this reason. My composition teacher, who LOVED really bad music... (I'm sorry but banging a pan or playing a harmonic sequence through a frying pan is not music. It's sound. It can be used in music. But alone, its a sound) didn't like John Williams and would cringe everytime I brought music I liked of his. He would then try to over analyze it...to make me see how horrible and dumb it was.

And then we'd get into the class, and the things he'd say JW did, he'd tell us to do...so it was like "You're an idiot."

Yeah, you're right on. There's definitely a lot of snobbery toward Williams in the classical community. People should learn to appreciate music for what it is, not where it comes from. I totally agree with y--

And quite frankly,I hate classical music. I can't stand it. It's so boring. I can't even watch fantasia because it puts me to sleep. The pieces I like are few and far between. I don't mind performing them, but listening ::yawn::

....................................... Oh.

Yeah...

[Maglorfin 196]

I went to sign up for my spot in our weekly recital series here at my school and I submitted my piece to the coordinator. I was going to be performing the Nocturne from Williams' Horn Concerto.

As soon as the coordinator read it he promptly refused to approve it on the basis of "this is not acceptable, I can't have people performing movie themes at this school. It discredits us."

People like that should be denied the possibility to become music coordinators/directors/whatever. It was he himself who discredited not only the school, but also himself.

[Marcus 390]

And so an injustice has been done. I went to sign up for my spot in our weekly recital series here at my school and I submitted my piece to the coordinator. I was going to be performing the Nocturne from Williams' Horn Concerto.

As soon as the coordinator read it he promptly refused to approve it on the basis of "this is not acceptable, I can't have people performing movie themes at this school. It discredits us."

And so I tried to argue that this was a CONCERTO and not a piece of film music and even if it were film music, how does that discredit the school? But he would here none of that. So in short hello Franz Strauss, bye bye Mr. Williams...

How often do YOU hear something like this!?

Dear Joey,

It seems you are the unfortunate victim of a very ignorant coordinator. Where do you study, by the way? Would it help that such august institutions as Juilliard, Curtis and the Manhattan School of Music have absolutely no qualms programming Williams?

In fact, I remember giving a copy of Williams's "Seven For Luck" to a vocal student during my Master's at MSM, Jacqueline Wagner, who won a school concerto competition with it.

You should please explain to your coordinator that he, given such sentiments, must from now on promptly expell Saint-Saens, Prokofiev, Ibert, Honegger, Walton and Shostakovich from future programs as well, as they all were, at one time or another, film composers.

My apologies...

Fire him...

[Joe Brausam 215]

Wow, who knew this would come back up to the top! It is an interesting topic though...

The problem with the recital coordinator, aside from being completely ignorant to anything but his precious tastes, is that he's the longest serving faculty member - not only in the school of music, but out of the entire institution. Unfortunately while much talking happens behind his back no one dares to stand up to him the majority of the time. He himself is actually a Julliard graduate, he studied clarinet there, you would think that maybe the fact that his alma mater seems to have no problem with film music would influence his opinion - but apparently not.

No worries though, I am planning the concerto to be the featured piece in my senior recital, and being that he isn't part of the brass faculty he has no say in that matter!

And about the frying pan comments up there - I coined a term for that sort of thing here at my school. It's hard to think of things like that as music (at least to me) so I now define it as "sound art". And trust me, "sound art" is much more pleasing when the name isn't associated with music anymore! I'm not trying to say that there is no value in it, just that from my point of view it is not music. Sound art is a perfectly acceptable term, from my point of view.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Film music, on the other hand, is meant to accompany moving pictures, to provide an objective commentary to the on-screen action. Robbed of that on-screen imagery, it loses much of its meaning.

Even the worst kind of film music can hardly be said to be objective.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Being "above" the common folk... like there is some class distinction or some garbage.

Did you just get away with saying garbage?

What the hell, it filtered the quote, yet in the original post it isn't. Marc, what is this??

[arathornion33 0]

I do understand where you come from. I am sympathetic with you to a certain degree. While I think Williams' concert works are completely acceptable in a case like yours, I do believe that his film music would not. (Please don't kill me for saying this) Classical music is on a higher level than film music, because it was written for the oral stimulus alone, and is not a slave to anything but itself. Film music tends (not Williams!) to be "crowd pleaser" music that doesn;y really have true musical depth. Classical follows set rules and patterns, and can not just "do it's own thing". I think that if you were to perform a concert with film music in it, it should be ALL film music, instead of mixed with classical. (The ONE exception could be mixing The Planets and the Star Wars Suite. All classical, or all film music. Concert pieces should not, however be discarded based on the sole assumption that it is written by a film composer.

Now the academians have problems with film music sometimes, simply because it is not music. (Does some of Hans Zimmer's action cues ring a bell...?) It might be a pleasing conglamoration of sound, but you probably shouldn't classify it as good music. Plagiarism (yes, I know) is another thing that turns down a lot of classical music purists. A lot of classical musicians do like Williams' music however, because it basically is classical music in essence. (Takes a few freedoms, but pretty close.)

While I sympathize with your coordinator, he did make a HUGE blunder by NOT realizing that it wasn't film music. Don't get me wrong, I love film music (or else, why would I be here) and I think it is a great medium for composers to still "exist", but composers shouldn't abuse the priviledge by writing "music" that is nothing but synths and electric sounds.

In all seriousness, though, classical music does take great precedence over film music.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Classical music is on a higher level than film music, because it was written for the oral stimulus alone

Erm....

[arathornion33 0]

Classical music is on a higher level than film music, because it was written for the oral stimulus alone

Erm....

O my God!! Wow, that is really embarrassing! What I REALLY meant, was that it was written for the AURAL stimulus alone!!!!! Wow, I would never post anything inappropriate like that! A thousand apologies!

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

No need to apologize...its happened before (with far more erm...embarrassing things being posted inadvertently). Still, hilarious. lol

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I didn't know you could do THAT with classical music.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Being "above" the common folk... like there is some class distinction or some garbage.

Did you just get away with saying garbage?

What the hell, it filtered the quote, yet in the original post it isn't. Marc, what is this??

That post is over a year old, far pre-dating the language filter.