The OFFICIAL The Dark Knight thread

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Well, technically it is revamping...but for the worse

[Romão 2,274]

Herrmann would've been perfect for this. Or even Goldenthal, but taking a completely oposite direction of Batman Forever.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

These batmans scores are not popular.

I have not known anyone who talks about them.

I mean these are not Gladiator-POTC kind of popular scores.

[Neimoidian 14]

I have listened to the score and what I can say it that it was worse than I expected. The Joker thing is nothing but noise, there are few enjoyable tracks on the album (I like something about 3 or 4) and the rest is garbage... Two capable composers, months of work and what we got is boring, not enjoyable score, with no or little development of old themes (they are used quite often, so that's the good thing)

[Desplat13 1]

Herrmann would've been perfect for this. Or even Goldenthal, but taking a completely oposite direction of Batman Forever.

Yes, I think Herrmann would have been great on this. I think a John Williams War of the Worlds-esque score would have actually been pretty good. At least that direction of scoring.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

I said popular means memorable. Idiot!

Well, that's just as wrong.

And the same to you.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

There is nothing popular about Batman scores....the first one is one of the worst sellers of the "big" scores of 2005.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I'd rather JNH just score the film on his own.

Keep in mind that Chris Nolan apparently doesn't like melodic-oriented scores for his movies, so if Howard would have scored this film solo, probably it would have ended up along the lines of Michael Clayton.

Anyway, what I heard so far about The Dark Knight stinks big time.

Actually I'd put KotCS just oh so slightly above Dark Knight. Both amount to being epic failures on the creative and intriguing scale.

I disagree wholeheartadly. Even if it ain't no masterpiece, there's far more creativity in just one minute of KotCS than in the whole 70+ minutes of The Dark Knight.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Keep in mind that Chris Nolan apparently doesn't like melodic-oriented scores for his movies

Shows what he knows.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I said popular means memorable. Idiot!

Well, that's just as wrong.

No it's not. If millions of people love a score, that means it's memorable. Star Wars is popular, are you saying it is not memorable?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I said popular means memorable. Idiot!

Well, that's just as wrong.

No it's not. If millions of people love a score, that means it's memorable. Star Wars is popular, are you saying it is not memorable?

When I read your posts, the voice I hear is Homer Simpson.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

If millions of people love a score, that means it's memorable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Despite the apparent idiocy, there really is not much to say against Koray's comment.

Certainly not when talking about short time popularity. (a few years)

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

But I think he confuses memorable with appealing.

[Vaderbait1 1]

Why the hell are we debating if something can be memorable and good?

This isn't good OR memorable so the whole thing seems like a moot point.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Thanks for sparing me the embarassment of mentioning that.

[Vaderbait1 1]

Thanks for sparing me the embarassment of mentioning that.

I do what I can.

[m0hawk 1]

Watch the World Burn sounds reallllllly different!

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I do like that cue. The end of it brings me images of panning around a city being destroyed by flames (funnily enough). Of course we all know that it'll be drowned out by dialogue or FX in the movie, but it's one of the few tracks on this album that work for me as a standalone listening experience.

I'll have to give the rest of the album a second listen upon release, as the sound quality of this is absolutely terrible, but I gotta say that Nolan's approach to music in every film of his that I've seen (and I've seen the first Batman, Prestige and Memento) has been ultimately forgettable on CD, yet the films themselves have I think been superb.

Opens an interesting point, and one that my brother keeps rapping me on - is the job of a score to work great in the movie, or does it also have a responsibility to work just as music as well? Every time I mention Michael Clayton or Babel, he rolls his eyes at me as he thinks that it's almost nerdy to demand a score work well apart from the movie.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The purpose of a score is to work in pair with the movie. I think Hans Zimmer is the only one that makes it a goal to make the score work on its own.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Compsers should not be concerned about their potential record sales.

But anyway, I do not think Zimmer is worried to much about that, I genuinly think that in his way he's trying to serve the film and the wishes of the director/producer.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Wasn't the big chase from Batman Begins scored in a rather radical way? Rather than delivering one long flowing piece, he sort of composed these construction blocks of music that could be shifted around and coupled together differently, so the director and editor could continue refining the sequence until the last minute.

Doesn't sound like a lot of care for the album presentation went into that.

Sounds like a director's dream though.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yes indeed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sounds like a director's dream though.

A large reason, maybe the largest reason for Zimmers succes. He caters to the desires of the film makers, even if those desires are just slight alterations of a previous film score.

[Desplat13 1]

Opens an interesting point, and one that my brother keeps rapping me on - is the job of a score to work great in the movie, or does it also have a responsibility to work just as music as well? Every time I mention Michael Clayton or Babel, he rolls his eyes at me as he thinks that it's almost nerdy to demand a score work well apart from the movie.

Well of course it has to work on album. Why else would it be called "music"?

This, of course, doesn't mean it should be easy listening material. But it should have musical meaning. Otherwise, in my book, it doesn't qualify as music.

And besides, who wants to sit through all these boring movies anyway?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Sounds like a director's dream though.

A large reason, maybe the largest reason for Zimmers succes. He caters to the desires of the film makers, even if those desires are just slight alterations of a previous film score.

Exactly.

Which is also, of course, probably the best thing to do if you want to have a good career in filmmaking. It's a logical priority over making great album music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, the first duty of a score is to serve the film!

Yes it is music, but it is not music comnposed for it's own sake. That is what makes film/TV/computergame music different from any other genre.

[Desplat13 1]

That does not mean it cannot serve itself as well. And should, if it wants to be called music. The sign of a great film composer is to work in the confines of a film, and create meaning through his music. Meaning in music is what makes it good on its own. It is not a matter of style and what is listenable on cd, but what has meaning. If a score fits a movie well, but has no meaning, than that means that the movie has no meaning.

I mean, really.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If a score fits a movie well, but has no meaning, than that means that the movie has no meaning.

I mean, really.

But if a score serves the film, and in some way enhances it, then it gains meaning from that.

Perhaps it will not be listenable or meaningfull on it's own, but that is secondary.

The best composers are the ones that can combine the 2 requirments though.

[Desplat13 1]

The best composers are the ones that can combine the 2 requirments though.

OK, than, we agree completely.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But film music that only serves the film should not be completely dismissed though.

On that we disagree, I think.

[Red 75]

The best composers are the ones that can combine the 2 requirments though.

Yes.

Gustavo Santoalalla is a prime example of a composer who only serves the film. Often times Zimmer is too.

[Desplat13 1]

But film music that only serves the film should not be completely dismissed though.

On that we disagree, I think.

Depends on what you mean by dismissed.

I would not buy the cd, and I would wish during the movie that the music were better (if I got to know the movie well enough).

It is fine, I suppose, but it could be better. And why settle for fine, when there is so much more out there?

The question is should the music serve itself or the movie first. I think choosing one or the other falls short of the possibilities in music.

[Wycket 36]

But film music that only serves the film should not be completely dismissed though.

On that we disagree, I think.

I agree with Stefan. Do I think that Zimmer's music is a great listening to on its own? Not most of the time, but I've found with Begins that if I like the film enough and I feel that the music adds to the experience than I like it. Liking something does not equate to whether something is good or not, and I feel that is something that people often mistake. I've seen many people on Batman boards that love Begins music and would like nothing else than to get a complete score (I am one of them). Simply dismissing something as terrible rubbish that none would like simply because you as an individual don't like is ignorant and fool-hearty.

Saying that film music needs to work both in and out of the film is also a ridiculous thing to ask. Film music in its very name is music composed specifically for a film in order to enhance the movie to not only convey a certain emotion, but to magnify what is on screen. By Zimmer/Howard composing music to fit Nolan's needs, they are doing their job. If they are able to create music (and that's what it is whether you like it or not) that can resonate outside the film for some than I'm sure they'll be happy.

[Desplat13 1]

Saying that film music needs to work both in and out of the film is also a ridiculous thing to ask. Film music in its very name is music composed specifically for a film in order to enhance the movie to not only convey a certain emotion, but to magnify what is on screen. By Zimmer/Howard composing music to fit Nolan's needs, they are doing their job. If they are able to create music (and that's what it is whether you like it or not) that can resonate outside the film for some than I'm sure they'll be happy.

But music will always be better if it is good music as well as good ambient background noise. At least in my opinion...

This is art. Since when is 'workable' part of the equation? Why stop there?

[Henry B 50]

That does not mean it cannot serve itself as well. And should, if it wants to be called music. The sign of a great film composer is to work in the confines of a film, and create meaning through his music. Meaning in music is what makes it good on its own. It is not a matter of style and what is listenable on cd, but what has meaning. If a score fits a movie well, but has no meaning, than that means that the movie has no meaning.

I mean, really.

A movie is meaningless if its score is meaningless? Think about what you just said...

[Desplat13 1]

That does not mean it cannot serve itself as well. And should, if it wants to be called music. The sign of a great film composer is to work in the confines of a film, and create meaning through his music. Meaning in music is what makes it good on its own. It is not a matter of style and what is listenable on cd, but what has meaning. If a score fits a movie well, but has no meaning, than that means that the movie has no meaning.

I mean, really.

A movie is meaningless if its score is meaningless? Think about what you just said...

OK, I guess it did look that way. What I meant was that if a score that was meaningless fit a movie better than a meaningful one would have (remember, this has nothing to do with style), that means that the movie is meaningless as well.

What I was saying is that a meaningful score is always going to be better.

[Henry B 50]

Well, of course it is. But what is a meaningful score?

[Wesker 0]

That does not mean it cannot serve itself as well. And should, if it wants to be called music. The sign of a great film composer is to work in the confines of a film, and create meaning through his music. Meaning in music is what makes it good on its own. It is not a matter of style and what is listenable on cd, but what has meaning. If a score fits a movie well, but has no meaning, than that means that the movie has no meaning.

I mean, really.

A movie is meaningless if its score is meaningless? Think about what you just said...

Yeah, Henry's right. Many of the great films I have seen had mediocre scores. Sometimes a film just doesn't need music to enhance it. It's really that simple.

[Desplat13 1]

A meaningful score tells a story, makes a point, is more than noise (many other options).

Sure, some movies don't need great scores, just like we don't need hearing. Sure is nice, though...

[Henry B 50]

The Birds.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The China Syndrome.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No Country For Old Men

A composer's priority is to create a score that conveys the emotional qualities of the movie. Everything else is secondary. This whole meaning and meaningless thing doesn't fit anywhere. A score doesn't have to mean anything to be good. It's also pretty hard to define what a meaningful score is. As long as the composer achieves his/her goal of enhancing the emotional aspects of the film, the music is a success, despite the quality of the movie.

I wouldn't call Paul Haslinger's score to Shoot 'Em Up a masterpiece, but it gets the job done. You have composers that achieve their primary goal, people such as Haslinger, Beltrami, and I guess Tyler. But then you have the composers that go beyond their primary objective, and create music that not only works with the film, but stands on its own as listenable music.

[Henry B 50]

I thought Carter Burwell's two score cues in No Country for Old Men were really dull and typical. There should have been no score at all.

Not a bad composer, though... I liked In Bruges.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I like the music he did for the end credits. Not typical at all, I thought it was very unique and fitting. I don't think the 60 seconds of music that was used in the actual movie is capable of being analyzed and labelled as dull or typical.

[Vaderbait1 1]

A little late to this, but a score only HAS to fit the movie. It is, after all, a movie score. However, the good composers can make it work on album as well.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

The purpose of a score is to work in pair with the movie. I think Hans Zimmer is the only one that makes it a goal to make the score work on its own.

In what kind of twisted world are you living? No, seriously. That statement is so mindbending that the profound dumbness almost eludes, for it is too deep to grasp in full.

[Desplat13 1]

A little late to this, but a score only HAS to fit the movie. It is, after all, a movie score. However, the good composers can make it work on album as well.

What he said, minus the little late part.

[Delorean90 42]

Some films don't demand a quality score as much as some films do necessarily, but I can't think of a single case where you would hurt your film by having the music that is in it be well-written. I just don't see it. I don't see how bland music can truly enhance a film.

In the case of Batman Begins (I'm reserving judgment on TDK, though I'm not holding my breath), I feel like Zimmer and Howard simply overcompensated in their quest for differentness from other superhero films, and this was probably compounded by Nolan's direction. What we ended up with was a score with some good thematic ideas and brief (relative?) highlights, but mostly bland underscore, which didn't do much to enhance the film. It only really succeeded in providing some kind of reasonably competent emotional context, which, I will admit, is infinitely better than not having any score would have been. The car chase is a great example. While it does give a broad, generic musical/emotional context for the scene, it fails to really complement the film on either a psychological level or a visceral level. Even as it seems to have a superficial energy (BOOM BOOM! Yippee! See, this is exciting!), in reality I find it lethargic--too lethargic to match the intensity of emotion that Bruce is certainly feeling, and it simultaneously fails to really score the sequence. It lacks on both levels. Zimmer asks "how many car chases can you do?" I ask "how much good music can you write?" It's okay to try to go somewhere else on a conceptual level, but if you continue to be dully basic in execution, then you really might as well have written something really good in a more conventional mode.