So, this EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the greatest score ever thing...

[Henry B 50]

I've been listening to Star Wars lately and noticing how monstrously good it is, especially compared to the sequel scores. "The Imperial March" is evil? Try "Imperial Attack" or "Binary Sunset (Alternative)." Empire is a good score, but it doesn't have nearly the freshness Wars does. Besides the fact that "Han Solo and the Princess" is an apparently deliberate rip-off of "Princess Leia," many of the themes just aren't as compelling. "Yoda's Theme" doesn't seem to encompass nine hundred years of experience - just a sage, old teacher. Some of the secondary motives (the droids, Boba Fett) seem like throwaways, and it wouldn't make much difference if they were there or not (compare these to the show-stopping Jawa motif). I've never liked the concert arrangement of "The Imperial March" - it seems to border on satire - the theme does pretty well in the film, but it can still seem overdone. The Imperial motif from Wars was not a spine-chillingly fun theme because it wasn't supposed to be. It represented evil in a smart and understated way, leaving some of the horror of the Empire to the audience's imagination. "The Imperial March" tells us straight up that Vader is the greatest evil in the universe, and Vader has to choke Imperial officers constantly just to keep up with his theme music. Another excellent motif that Williams abandoned for the sequel was Dies Irae (a frequent visitor to his scores), which I'm now thinking may have been his half-hearted way of connecting Sith to Wars. In Wars, it's extremely ominous (though without the inclusion of "Binary Sunset (Alternative)," it's not so potent).

Many of the cues just aren't as interesting. "TIE Fighter Attack" or "Hyperspace"? "The Battle of Yavin" or "The Battle of Hoth"? "Cantina Band" or... um... well, the thing about Empire is that it never gives you a break with a comic relief cue like this. When it comes right down to it, Wars brings to the imagination towering images of knights and kingdoms of old. Empire brings to the imagination images of stormtroopers and Jedi. I'd like to hear opposing arguments.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Star Wars is a perfect score, The Empire Strikes Back is a great score.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Star Wars is certainly a superior score in its function as film music.

But I personally just like the music from ESB so very much I just can't pick either one.

[A24 4,333]

Star Wars is closer to classical music than Empire, which sounds more like (ordinary) film music.

Alex

[King Mark 3,631]

Your all wrong.Empire is JW's best score ever,and the best film score of all times

[Ollie 1,059]

Star Wars is a perfect score, The Empire Strikes Back is a great score.

I agreed 100%.

[Trent B 337]

The Empire Strikes Back is definitely my favorite Star Wars score. Whenever I listen to it, I generally am compelled to listen to the whole thing every time. I love most of the stuff on Disc Two the most.

[robthehand 3]

Star Wars is a perfect score, The Empire Strikes Back is a great score.

I agree.

I think Star Wars flows better as an entire score than Empire, which feels to me more like a collection of cues. And Empire's new themes, while great, can't compare to what's in Star Wars. The original Imperial theme/motif is just perfect.

But we're comparing two of the all-time greats here. I only rank Empire second because Star Wars is SO great, if that makes sense.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Star Wars is a perfect score, The Empire Strikes Back is a great score.

I agreed 100%.

Thirded.

Star Wars has always had this brilliant quality of being bombastic and grand....without actually aurally being over the top I don't know if I can describe it. But if you listen to the music accompanying the approach to the Death Star, it is such a grand piece of music, yet it's never pushing the limits of human hearing in terms of decibels.

To me that is the best kind of film scoring...scoring with restraint. I think that went missing in the later movies. A lot of those later film cues lose their power if you turn down the volume.

[Red 75]

Star Wars is better, but Empire is my favorite (tied with Return).

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Empire is JW's best score ever, ...

Agreed.

... and the best film score of all times

Nope. The best score of all times is defenetly Ben-Hur by Miklós Rózsa. The orchestration in all Star Wars franchise has many rip-off's from the orchestrations of Ben-Hur. Williams has fit in the Star Wars scores, because George Lucas want to have the influences of Ben-Hur, including the music. I would say, the Star Wars scores includes 70% of Ben-Hur's music (orchestrations and ideas).

Ben-Hur is a fantastic score. I don't need to say more.

BTW, many scores of Williams are influenced by Rózsa's music.

[Quintus 5,399]

Star Wars is closer to classical music than Empire, which sounds more like (ordinary) film music.

Alex

Possibly because the actual recording of SW gives it a certain classical feel. Those cellos sound soooo classical...

I can't choose between them. Actually that's a lie, ESB wins for me. Because no matter how great the SW score is, that brass will always sound ugly.

[Neimoidian 14]

Star Wars is a perfect score, The Empire Strikes Back is a great score.

I would say it's the opposite. I have never heard a score better than "The Empire Strikes Back" from neither Williams, nor any other film composer. I admire "Star Wars" and its role in film music history, there is nothing bad that can be told about it, but I definitely prefer listening to "ESB".

[Henry B 50]

Star Wars is closer to classical music than Empire, which sounds more like (ordinary) film music.

Alex

Possibly because the actual recording of SW gives it a certain classical feel. Those cellos sound soooo classical...

I can't choose between them. Actually that's a lie, ESB wins for me. Because no matter how great the SW score is, that brass will always sound ugly.

Yes, the recording of Star Wars is much greater than that of the sequels, so I suppose that is one unfair advantage it has. But why complain about the "ugly" brass? The brass in ESB is just as harsh, and much more tinny. Jedi (going by the Anthology) sounds excellent in that newer style of recording way... which could be good or bad. It's certainly less direct.

[Lurker 5]

Yeah, Star Wars rules.

Neil

[King Mark 3,631]

Empire is JW's best score ever, ...

Agreed.

... and the best film score of all times

Nope. The best score of all times is defenetly Ben-Hur by Miklós Rózsa. The orchestration in all Star Wars franchise has many rip-off's from the orchestrations of Ben-Hur. Williams has fit in the Star Wars scores, because George Lucas want to have the influences of Ben-Hur, including the music. I would say, the Star Wars scores includes 70% of Ben-Hur's music (orchestrations and ideas).

Ben-Hur is a fantastic score. I don't need to say more.

BTW, many scores of Williams are influenced by Rózsa's music.

wahtever. (some) of Rosza's music is good (El Cid especially),but I prefer the Williams sound.Williams is a better version of Rosza.Rosza sound is sometimes too harsh

[Jim Ware 526]

Williams is a better version of Rosza.

Pffft. Rozsa is Rozsa. Williams is Williams. Apples and oranges.

[King Mark 3,631]

El cid I admit is magnificent,but I have a hard time getting into his other works

[Jarbas 1]

Your all wrong.Empire is JW's best score ever,and the best film score of all times

I agreed 100%.

And for me, the Academy largest injustice in the category Best Score was Fame winning, instead of The Empire Strikes Back.

[ChuckM 1]

They are both pretty much perfect scores, but I prefer ESB a bit more.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

El cid I admit is magnificent,but I have a hard time getting into his other works

If you liked El Cid, have you tried Ivanhoe?  

Give it a shot if you haven't.

[Guest macrea]

A few things come to mind. There's no doubt that Empire is a grand achievement. Williams accomplished the seeming impossible task of using the themes from Star Wars in a different kind of score and a different kind of movie. He also managed to make the movie feel more expansive than it actually is.

But is it Star Wars? No. Star Wars seems to evoke tales of good vs. evil in general, as if the story told in the movie is just one of countless times something similar has taken place. It is truly timeless. It is completely accessible from beginning to end and there is a pervading sense of fun about it. With the exception of the music for the sand people the music never becomes dissonant and overly busy. Not so for Empire. Again, a different kind of score for a different kind of movie, not wrong or unsuccessful, but much more of the moment and linked specifically to the film it was written for. The forays into dissonance and use of synthesizer, while making for interesting compositions, take away a lot of the accessibility and the timelessness, even though those moments are there as well.

Something must also be said for that fact that so much of what Williams wrote for Empire was changed or dropped, and I for one think that all of the decisions were for the better. One dropped cue (for the trash monster) and some quiet music for the jawas is all that was dropped from Star Wars.

As for the Imperial March, I've always felt it is too on the nose, and that goes back to the first time I heard it on Williams's Boston Pops debut concert in April 1980 a month before the album came out and the movie was released. It's cool and all, but it has no subtlety and feels like its pandering to an audience that won't understand who the bad guys are unless they twirl their moustaches. I love the Imperial motif in Star Wars and missed it in the other films (and what a golden opportunity was lost by not having in the prequels). Not only does it leave the evils of the Empire to the imagination, but it is, quite appropriately, an minor-mode inversion of the rebel fanfare. Such a simple idea, brilliant in its spareness. But The Imperial March... how much thought did it take to write a bombastic minor mode march for an evil military regime?

Conversely, I don't agree with Cerrabore about Yoda's theme and the love theme. They are both terrific and brilliantly integrated with existing themes. (And the use of all three new themes in the end credits is fantastic.) It is right for the love theme to be related to Leia's - since the new theme is about her and Han Solo. Her own theme from Star Wars has an innocent quality, but Empire's love theme has a maturity and a hesitancy to it that fits the relationship perfectly.

Empire is a great score, one of my favorites, but it really cannot be compared to Star Wars, more because it is different rather than better. To my ear Star Wars is in a league of its own. It's unlike the other scores just as the movie is completely unlike the other films despite Lucas's offensive efforts to make it fit.

[Datameister 2,043]

I've given up trying to pull a tie-breaker with these two scores. They're both too great. Yes, SW does have a bit more freshness, I think, but ESB hardly feels stale to me. Not one statement of the older themes feels out-of-place or tongue-in-cheek to me, and the new stuff is quite good. Very, very good.

"TIE Fighter Attack" or "Hyperspace"? "The Battle of Yavin" or "The Battle of Hoth"? "Cantina Band" or... um... well, the thing about Empire is that it never gives you a break with a comic relief cue like this.

"Hyperspace," "The Battle of Hoth," and "Cantina Band"--notice the only winner for SW is by default. No, don't get me wrong--while I'm listening to it, SW feels like a better score. While I'm listening to ESB, it feels like a better score. Which is a big win for me.

I know what you mean about the original being better at inspiring that wistful feeling for the legendary early days of the Republic. It has a fairy-tale-like quality, though it sounds far more mature than any fairy tale. But ESB has so many incredible cues, despite the fact that it doesn't flow as well overall and there's some slightly grating music here and there.

Yup, after yet another round of careful consideration, I'm refusing once more to declare a favorite. I have none. Perhaps ESB by an iota, but I doubt it.

[GoodMusician 56]

This was kinda something I was hinting to in another thread a while ago.

Lucas has said that Empire was the worst film of them all, and most people actually like it most1

When watching empire and listening to it, I coudln't help but feel like it it was, as you kinda put it, not quite on the mark.

Look at the videos I did on youtube of the original opening which goes up to Han going out on the taun taun, and it FEELs....cartooney?

It feels almost B-Movie like... Almost like it's the same characters, but they aren't looked at through the lens the same way. They are seen almost in a goofy sense... a not too literal sense...

And I think the score reflected that. Some of the cues are great.. but it is definately different than "Star Wars."

Jedi I think was better score wise than Empire on a lot of things... then again, the film was much darker in the opening and much more ominous than empire which seemed more jovial.

Looking at the things they made Han say or do, I coudln't help but get the feeling that the people who wrote Empire didn't get the characters... it seemed almost fanboyish.

"I love you"

"I love you too."

Harisson Ford was right when he said Han wouldn't EVER say that...and the fact they wrote him to say that should be a red flag about how little they understood the character.

But yea, I have to agree with you there on the score... It wasn't a much of a hit as Star Wars...

However, I once considered making an Isolated score dvd of Star Wars...and I was AMAZED at how much was edited out and how much editing was done in the film...

That's kinda why I do my videos... to better understand Williams. Then again, it was like one of his first REAL films... so you can only expect so much from him... so I guess Star Wars definately was great, but it was also as great as it was due in part to Lucas's editing of it in the film.

[skyy38 21]

Now and for all time....

Star Wars Episode IV

Words can barely describe the absolute genius and talent that John Williams brought to bear for this movie.More than any other composer of his generation,he discovered the true,thumping heart of the story

and shaped his music according to what the movie needed,and not some "committee".I'm not going to waste time with superlatives that I'm sure all of you are all too familiar with by now,but instead touch on something which I feel is all but ignored by the musical community at large.

The man is a master of textures.

Music is more than just mere notes or meter or feel.How you handle your textures is every bit as important as the first three.How are you going to handle your sounds,how are you going to combine them for the greatest or,(sometimes,)least impact?How are you going to use your textures to compliment not only the visual aspect,but the aural aspect(sound FX) as well?

A very good example of this can be heard in the first 5 seconds of

"The Battle Of Yavin".When heard with the rest of the films soundtrack,it combines seamlessly to create a feeling of airiness,of flight.When heard by itself,it's almost too simple to be there-You actually expect to hear a lot more than just high strings,cello,french horn and harp.A lesser composer would have tried to stack everything they could on the track in order to suggest "airiness" but Mr. Williams truly compliments the scene by adding *only* what is essential,which is another hallmark of the skilled composer.In this instance it is more than just "music", it is true underscore.

John Williams might be known mostly for his sweeping romantic themes,but I think I admire him more for stuff that you can't hum so easily after exiting the theater.The first shot of the X-Wings in space,as they approach the Death Star(original NOT special edition has the greater impact)is just madness.Where did Williams come up with what he came up with?And why? And do you think he could *truly* and fully explain just what his motivations were?Or was he just going with his musical gut? I wish I could ask him.

Also according to a fairly reliable printed source(the long defunct Star Wars Poster Monthly) Star Wars recieved the lions share of time spent writing it. Mr. Williams spent about a year,in his spare time,cobbling bits and pieces and themes together.After that,he spent an entire three months writing the final score and frankly,you can hear not only the effort but also the care and thought put into it.

Star Wars represented not only a return to form for 70's movie music,it also was highly innovative in that the music was separated by one century in reality,and several centuries in fantasy......

[Henry B 50]

It feels almost B-Movie like... Almost like it's the same characters, but they aren't looked at through the lens the same way. They are seen almost in a goofy sense... a not too literal sense...

Yeah, I watched Empire recently and was amazed by how campy some of it is, despite strong performances by the original leads and Billy Dee Williams. (John) Williams wrote the score the movie deserved. It's still good, really good; I don't mean to say otherwise, but it's just... cheesy.

By the way, good posts, randomly present fellow Star Wars score fanatics.

[Red 75]

Empire is the best film.

Rabbit--slightly taken back by Skyy's evaluation

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I don't mean to say otherwise, but it's just... cheesy.

And all the other Star Wars aren't?

And someone mentioned the Star Wars score being more mythical. Really? I always thought it was the most down to earth and tangible/realistic of the 6.

[GoodMusician 56]

Lucas once talked ab out the difficulty of writing stories that are meant for children.

In the end, the star wars films are children films... so a slight sillyness...or childlike flair is apropo to such films... but Empire definately had more tongue in cheek moments than the rest.

Between the droids wasting about a minute and a half complaining about leiah's clothes being wet becuase of the heater

To the falcon not working

To the falcon not working again

To 3PO being exploded

To Chewie fighting the pig things for 3PO's body

To 3PO complaining about being put together backwards...

It just... it's not just what was done, but how it was done. The way it was directed, the look of the film, the music also adds to that slightly becuase its in that vein.

[Henry B 50]

I don't mean to say otherwise, but it's just... cheesy.

And all the other Star Wars aren't?

And someone mentioned the Star Wars score being more mythical. Really? I always thought it was the most down to earth and tangible/realistic of the 6.

It's all in the gradients: "Will someone get this walking carpet out of my way?" is cheesy, but, "I have seen a security hologram of him... KILLING YOUNGLINGS!" is cheesier.

[Red 75]

Well, that's the Prequels.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

"I have seen a security hologram of him... KILLING YOUNGLINGS!" is cheesier.

The prize goes to Obi-Wan's "I can't watch anymore!" >_> Our entire theater laughed at that one.

[Romão 2,274]

What do I know, my favorite SW score is ROTJ.

[Jeshopk 8]

Empire Strikes Back is a bit more to my tastes. More modern orchestral music in there, and the drama is so tangible.

[Guest macrea]

Williams doesn't seem to think too much before he writes a score. In retrospect he has often said that to him Star Wars was a fun kids' spaceship movie, and it's obvious that what he went for was his idea of a Saturday morning cartoon scored by Korngold and Holst. It's pretty much forgotten now that when Star Wars was initially successful it was received as an homage to films of a bygone era, very much the way Raiders was. It was a celebration of cinema more than a special effects/space movie and not thought of in terms of a saga until after Empire came out. The score tapped not only into storytelling mythology but the mythology of cinema itself, a remarkable feat considering that Williams seems to have initially thought of it as a lark.

Lucas can talk all he wants about how these are kids' movies, and his sour grapes about Empire says a lot.... Yes there is campy stuff in the movie, but very gradually the film becomes more mature, probably more than Lucas wanted, which is why he doesn't like it. It's a kids film until the bad guy tortures and freezes Han Solo, gives him to a bounty hunter, and then cuts off the hero's hand right before he tells him he's his father. At that point and for the three anticipation-filled years that followed it was assumed by everyone that this was the direction the trilogy was going in, that it would continue to mature with its audience. Williams seems to have tapped into this, hence moments like the section of "Hyperspace" where Vader telepathically reaches out to Luke. The writing there is truly brilliant, merciless in creating a sense of psychologial dread and making it seem that the protagonists could actually lose.

So what happens? We get Jedi, otherwise known as Lucas slapping his wayward child on the wrist and throwing it back in the nursery. Williams did what he could and the result was good, but not nearly as inspired as the predecessors. The big tip off to me has always been that both Star Wars and Empire really don't sound like any other Williams score, but Jedi never goes out of its way to find a distinctive sound. Much of it is in the same mode as the first two Indiana Jones films. What Williams seemed to tap into in Jedi is that the film is played very broadly - a Christmas pageant is what comes to mind, where people make grand, timely entrances and exits and utter flowery but meaningless dialogue almost as if they are aware of the audience. The musical idiom closest to this would be an opera or tone poem, and hence Williams went for a very Wagnerian effect, composing for just about every foot of film. For Williams fans it's a treat, but the score is basically just serviceable and disappointing in its lack of truly memorable setpieces like "TIE Fighter Attack" or "The Asteroid Field." I've always felt that as with many viewers Jedi was not the film that Williams was expecting or hoping for. The score is good but it's amazing how different it is from Star Wars, especially given that it has virtually the same plot. It also seems that the prequel scores are more like Jedi than Star Wars or Empire.

With Star Wars all the planets seemed to line up (an appropriate cliché!). It was the right movie at the right time and Williams was exactly where he needed to be to compose the score he did. If anybody prefers one of the others as a favorite that's fine, but to me the original is the only one that's lightning in a bottle.

[Henry B 50]

I think Elliot Goldenthal's Batman Forever is exemplary of the type of score that has little regard for the film it is attached to. I'd classify Return of the Jedi as this type of score - really good, and unconcerned what is going on on the screen - after all, it doesn't matter. Jedi is filled with rich, abstract colors that seem to outdo the mediocre scenes they are attached to. It's Williams having a fun time.

Star Wars, however, is the superior effort and the greater complement to its film.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I think Elliot Goldenthal's Batman Forever is exemplary of the type of score that has little regard for the film it is attached to.

And that's... bad?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Star wars score is great for its 'standalonity'. Its sound also makes it an instant classic. But the sequels ESB and ROTJ are much better in the thematic richness nad variations and complexity.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Empire is JW's best score ever, ...

Agreed.

... and the best film score of all times

Nope. The best score of all times is defenetly Ben-Hur by Miklós Rózsa. The orchestration in all Star Wars franchise has many rip-off's from the orchestrations of Ben-Hur. Williams has fit in the Star Wars scores, because George Lucas want to have the influences of Ben-Hur, including the music. I would say, the Star Wars scores includes 70% of Ben-Hur's music (orchestrations and ideas).

Ben-Hur is a fantastic score. I don't need to say more.

BTW, many scores of Williams are influenced by Rózsa's music.

King of Kings is better.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually I find King Of Kings to be a nice companion to Ben Hur.

It's a little too repetative at times but a nice score.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

And that's... bad?

Well....when you're doing a FILM score....I suppose perhaps maybe just possibly it should be considered?

[Datameister 2,043]

Great post, macrea. I agree with just about everything except...

Jedi never goes out of its way to find a distinctive sound. Much of it is in the same mode as the first two Indiana Jones films.

I think it does have its own sound, though not a terribly distinctive one, and it seems quite unrelated to the first two Indy films. In fact, both of those sound completely different to me, with ROTLA being somewhat closer to ROTJ.

It also seems that the prequel scores are more like Jedi than Star Wars or Empire.

Dunno if I agree with that, either. Well, on second thought, I guess if I had to pick one OT score to lump in with the prequels, it'd probably be ROTJ. But again, they sound so different to me that I don't see much point in comparing them.

[Romão 2,274]

Am I only the one that thinks that ROTS has a very distincitive sound?

[Red 75]

Am I only the one that thinks that ROTS has a very distincitive sound?

Compared to the rest of the scores, yes. But Menace was better.

I'm having a hard time deciding between the three scores. They are all masterful.

[Datameister 2,043]

But Menace was better.

As a whole package? I agree. But for me, ROTS truly shines in a number of cues.

[Morlock 11]

I think Elliot Goldenthal's Batman Forever is exemplary of the type of score that has little regard for the film it is attached to.

And that's... bad?

Yes, that's bad. A film composer's job is not to write good music, it is to write the right music for the film.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well I'm thankful that Goldenthal wrote a very good score regardless of whether it tops the movie or not.

[Red 75]

But it does top the movie very much.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

But Menace was better.

As a whole package? I agree. But for me, ROTS truly shines in a number of cues.

I recall three shining cues....and all three weren't even officially released.  

[King Mark 3,631]

It's a tie for me between RotS and TPM,but I prefer Battle of the Heroes to Duel of the Fates