Intrada's Sept. 23rd Release, Something Special?

[Hlao-roo 389]

But the point is, I have grown to love Goldsmith on a level I never anticipated.

Indeed, the man is Gorgeous.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

[Hlao-roo 389]

When I watch films he scored from the '70s, I almost chuckle at how the music is running independently from the narrative in some cases.

Examples?

The Asteroid Field- there's tons of activity going on during dialogue parts with Han and Leia to the point where the mixer had to dial down the music. You can actually hear the drop in volume audibly.

The Empire Strikes Back, a 1980 score, isn't necessarily representative of Williams's 1970s output. The year of release aside, isn't Williams scoring the asteroid field, which is part of the narrative?

[David Coscina 3]

I concur with MissPadme's viewpoint. I share a similar lack of enthusiasm for Goldsmith (not a lack of respect). It's not like I don't listen to him, but I often find greater satisfaction in many other composers - and what's wrong with that?

Try the following if you haven't:

Papillon

Islands in the Stream

First Blood

Twilight Zone- especially "Kick the Can" segment which is the only time Goldsmith scored a Spielberg directed film- and the theme is gorgeous, one of his most beautiful

The Final Conflict

These are but a few of Goldsmith's great scores. I do not care for his electronic '80s scores and prefer more of his acoustic outings.

When I watch films he scored from the '70s, I almost chuckle at how the music is running independently from the narrative in some cases.

Examples?

The Asteroid Field- there's tons of activity going on during dialogue parts with Han and Leia to the point where the mixer had to dial down the music. You can actually hear the drop in volume audibly.

The Empire Strikes Back, a 1980 score, isn't necessarily representative of Williams's 1970s output. The year of release aside, isn't Williams scoring the asteroid field, which is part of the narrative?

Yes it is but it would have been all right to thin out the orchestra in parts where the actors were talking. The shift in volume is jarring.

Look I'm not trying to vilify Williams, I already said he's my favorite composer. But I do think Goldsmith's approach towards film music was more cerebral. And if you listen to a cue like Test Run from The Final Conflict or the aforementioned "Jungle Holocaust" from Boys from Brazil, you will hear a very talented composer at work who was able to write fantastically complex music but was able to follow the drama really really well.

p.s. I will never for the life of me understanding web culture where people feel the need to chime in on a thread simply to say something negative like "I don't like Goldsmith". I mean, would it not be more constructive to stick with threads where your input was beneficial to fellow members? But whatever. Freedom of speech and all that nonsense.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Don't forget Patton - that's an excellent score (and theme is actually somewhat known by the public, as I've come to notice).

[Mattris 416]

GHOST WARRIOR sold out a few hours ago.

[222max 1]

Music is subjective and a matter of taste, of course. But the idea here is also how well a score works with the images on screen. That is, after all the reason for its existence, not how it pleases on a CD. That said, one must truly appreciate what Goldsmith does as a composer of music for film.

King Solomon's Mines is, of all the vast creations of Goldsmith, the absolute worst place to start in his canon. I have almost everything by Goldsmith. I also have almost everything by Williams, and Herrmann and Rozsa and Barry and Morricone as well. You just can't distill a composer's value to a mere statement once you've exposed yourself to the breadth and length of his output. Those who don't like Goldsmith have probably not heard enough of it. And there are a great many who still wouldn't care after they did hear more... that's the way it is.

But I've always appreciated the concepts behind Jerry's music as much as the music itself. There's always an idea at work. The ones that aren't as successful are those where the idea was a weak one. Poo-poo something like Hollow Man all you want but there's a clear intellect at work in that score and so many others by Goldsmith. That's what made not only his music sound dynamically different than John Williams but also his whole approach and attitude to scoring a film. Both tastes are wonderful to explore.

[Hlao-roo 389]

When I watch films he scored from the '70s, I almost chuckle at how the music is running independently from the narrative in some cases.

Examples?

The Asteroid Field- there's tons of activity going on during dialogue parts with Han and Leia to the point where the mixer had to dial down the music. You can actually hear the drop in volume audibly.

The Empire Strikes Back, a 1980 score, isn't necessarily representative of Williams's 1970s output. The year of release aside, isn't Williams scoring the asteroid field, which is part of the narrative?

Yes it is but it would have been all right to thin out the orchestra in parts where the actors were talking. The shift in volume is jarring.

Look I'm not trying to vilify Williams, I already said he's my favorite composer. But I do think Goldsmith's approach towards film music was more cerebral. And if you listen to a cue like Test Run from The Final Conflict or the aforementioned "Jungle Holocaust" from Boys from Brazil, you will hear a very talented composer at work who was able to write fantastically complex music but was able to follow the drama really really well.

Hey, I'm not necessarily arguing your point, just asking you to clarify it. I do think it's become something of a truism in film music circles that although the talent of the two men is unquestionable, Goldsmith's dramatic fealty is superior: he strove for "emotional penetration," he was less literal, his instrumentational adventurousness was better suited to establishing a singular soundscape for any given film. Williams, on the other hand, is perceived as the composer who uses film a mere pretext to write the concert suites in which he is supposed to be more interested.

I just think we should hold on to a healthy skepticism when it comes to handling stark generalizations such as these, particularly when they are unaccompanied my evidence.

[David Coscina 3]

222max, I would say the appreciation of music is subjective and a matter of taste. But, as I have said many many times before, music is a discipline and system like math or sciences. There are objective rules and truths to it.

Aside from that, I totally agree with your post on Goldsmith. He was one of the best the art of film music has seen.

[Romão 2,274]

Although I don't think he is as consistent quality wise as Williams, there is just too much to be loved in Goldsmith's music. It always sounds original, refreshing and brave. Scores like Masada, The Final Conflict, The Russia House, Papillon, Total Recall, Mulan and Alien are just too good to be missed. It was a slow awakening for me, but I can't go back now.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

But I've always appreciated the concepts behind Jerry's music as much as the music itself. There's always an idea at work. The ones that aren't as successful are those where the idea was a weak one. Poo-poo something like Hollow Man all you want but there's a clear intellect at work in that score and so many others by Goldsmith. That's what made not only his music sound dynamically different than John Williams but also his whole approach and attitude to scoring a film. Both tastes are wonderful to explore.

"Not a fan of" and "don't respect" are two different things. I never poo-poo'd Hollow Man because I think it's bad music, but because most of it doesn't do anything positive for me as a listening experience. It works wonderfully in the film and I agree it has intellect.

Go 30 years from now, and there are going to be another collection of 80 year old composers who are younger and at the absolute top of their game right now (I won't speculate, we've had that fiery discussion), but we all have solid opinions on the 'candidates' and whether we like their music. I don't see what's different about now and 30 years ago when Goldsmith was doing 8 scores a year.

[Hitch 57]

Is there anything of significance missing from the two volumes?

I don't know, I have never seen the movie (and I doubt anyone here has). It looks terrible...

The movie is a bit outlandish with a ham fisted performance by Gregory Peck but it's not at all terrible, especially compared to today's numb-minded thrillers. Goldsmith's score is a brilliant combination of menace and humor.

Gertrud: [Mengele has just knocked Mundt to the floor] Get a doctor!

Dr. Josef Mengele: I am a doctor, madam.

Gertrud: Don't you come near him!

Dr. Josef Mengele: Shut up, you ugly bitch.

[222max 1]

Opening Title Credits. Imagine being in a theater and this is the musical opening of the film you are about to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgSwikTveM...feature=related

Peck and Olivier in a vicious and bloody rumble. What's great is that it is left UNSCORED.

[MissPadmé 17]

Opening Title Credits. Imagine being in a theater and this is the musical opening of the film you are about to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgSwikTveM...feature=related

Peck and Olivier in a vicious and bloody rumble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgSwikTveM...feature=related

Well I actually heard this in the theater, or to be more specific: in the OPERA!!

Wow this is such a Rosenkavalier (Strauss) Rip off! and thats a fact and not just a opinion! the chordshifting, the string writing, the horn-glissandi.

And I know the opera pretty well, before anyone comes to the idea I just know the snippet from AI.

well being a film about nazis you will say:"What music could be more appropriate?" but that's not a original piece. just a redone version of the original.

[222max 1]

Opening Title Credits. Imagine being in a theater and this is the musical opening of the film you are about to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgSwikTveM...feature=related

Peck and Olivier in a vicious and bloody rumble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgSwikTveM...feature=related

Wow this is such a Rosenkavalier (Strauss) Rip off! and thats a fact and not just a opinion! the chordshifting, the string writing, the horn-glissandi.

And I know the opera pretty well, before anyone comes to the idea I just know the snippet from AI.

well being a film about nazis you will say:"What music could be more appropriate?" but that's not a original piece. just a redone version of the original.

The whole score is Straussian (in the same manner that Superman is Wagnarian or Star Wars is Korngoldian). It is stylistically Strauss but not a rip off in any specific way.

Listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLiWWrSFRko...feature=related

I hear a very deliberate stylistic similarity but not at all a rip off. But the concept here is that Goldsmith took something very Austrian and turned it into a dark dance of evil. Imagine someone taking the Star Spangled banner and turning it inside out to good effect. Again, it's the idea which makes it work so well.

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

Well I actually heard this in the theater, or to be more specific: in the OPERA!!

Wow this is such a Rosenkavalier (Strauss) Rip off! and thats a fact and not just a opinion! the chordshifting, the string writing, the horn-glissandi.

Now, now. There's plenty of vintage Goldsmith in it (just listen to those syncopations). There's nothing in the theme that reminds me of the Rosenkavalier, and as for the orchestration, that's of course intentional mockery. As far as I recall, there are some typical Wagner sounds in other pieces.

Goldsmith has done his share of copying, but hardly in this piece. Korngold owes much more to the Rosenkavalier.

(Mentioning Superman, that has a far bigger Strauss ripoff (the love theme of course) - not that I'd mind, mind you)

[MissPadmé 17]

I hear a very deliberate stylistic similarity but not at all a rip off. But the concept here is that Goldsmith took something very Austrian and turned it into a dark dance of evil. Imagine someone taking the Star Spangled banner and turning it inside out to good effect. Again, it's the idea which makes it work so well.

You don't have to take something Austrian and make it evil, Austria is very evil from the start!!

and.. well Richard Strauss is actually from Germany/Bavaria

There's nothing in the theme that reminds me of the Rosenkavalier,

well if you don't hear THAT!!....hm its pretty obvious, (0:20!!)I am speaking of Harmonic structure not just the orchestration. This the perfect variation of The famous Rosenkavalier Waltz

[222max 1]

You don't have to take something Austrian and make it evil, Austria is very evil from the start!!

Ooh. I hope there are no Austrian members here. You're gonna get it.

[MissPadmé 17]

yes those Austrians are not to underestimate!

LOL I told my father about that release and he went nuts, so he will order it. I guess he doesn't share my opinion hehe

well maybe I'll give it a listen.

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

Don't forget that Strauss himself already mocked around with those waltzes. It's only fitting to mock them in turn, I say.

Austria never seems to come off too well in Strauss' operas, Vienna in particular.

[Hitch 57]

That much is certain

[Wojo 2,453]

That makes sense for the opening titles to be Straussian in their nature, because then Zimmer lifted the style for his Pirates 2 waltz not from Zimmer, but from the original, Richard Strauss. Zimmer German, Strauss Austrian, it makes sense.

You know that when the truth is told / That you can get what you want or you can just get old / You're gonna kick off before you even get halfway through / Why don't you realize? Vienna waits for you...

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

That makes sense for the opening titles to be Straussian in their nature, because then Zimmer lifted the style for his Pirates 2 waltz not from Zimmer, but from the original, Richard Strauss. Zimmer German, Strauss Austrian, it makes sense.

Strauß Austrian. Strauss German.

[Ollie 1,059]

According to Doug over at Intrada the initial batch of 3000 for Boys From Brazil is nearly gone.

[Trent B 337]

So only 2,000 copies remain? Hmm not surprising all though I suspect a lot of those copies went to other outlets like SAE, MovieMusic and hate to say it...but BSX.

[Wojo 2,453]

Sorry, my bad. I misread something above without doing my homework or reading Miss Padme's correction, and repeated the assumption that Richard Strauss was from Austria. His birthplace, Munich, is part of Germany.

It's the waltz Strausses (Johann Strauss I, II, and III) who all hailed from Vienna, and were not related to the German Richard, so that's where I was confused.

You learn something new every day.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

I applied the same principal here as I did with Baby. Its Goldsmith and its going to be sold out within the next day, I might as well pick up a copy. I am really interested in the album presentation. I am more interested in the original album suites than I am the complete score, its going to be a fun listen.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

5000 and nearly gone? They ought to think about 10,000 copies in their contracts.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

They might need it for BTTF.

[Jacob 0]

(Does anyone actually think Supergirl is a match for Superman?)

Dan Hobgood.

As for the 'ole Williams vs Goldsmith cage match...

Actually I have no trouble accepting Goldsmith as Williams equal. My opinion is still vastly uninformed on the former, which I'd like to change soon enough.

Come to think of it, there's only 8 or so Goldsmith scores I can say I'm familiar with:

Medicine Man

Patton

First Knight

Star Trek: The Motion Picture

Mulan

The Mummy

The Thirteenth Warrior

Small Soldiers

Those first 3 actually make up some of my earliest film score listening memories.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

(Does anyone actually think Supergirl is a match for Superman?)

Dan Hobgood.

As for the 'ole Williams vs Goldsmith cage match...

He's a good man.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

come on, why don't people admit that Jerry was the biggest self plagerist of all.

all of his Joe Dante scores sound similar, Star Trek, Alien, and Poltergeist have moments that you wonder is that from Alien, no its from Star Trek, no its from Poltergeist.

Joe just throwing fuel on this fire

[Maglorfin 196]

I like Avae Satani, that's it. I don't like Aliens, not the score and not the movie. It's pretty uninteresting stuff for me.

Goldsmith did Alien, not Aliens (which was done by Horner). They're both masterpieces to me though, but of course, let us all have our different opinions and listen to the scores we love the most. Variatio delectat!

However, I've had no idea that Horner is scoring the upcoming Poltergeist remake (didn't know about that either). I don't expect too much, but I'm kinda curious what he's going to do, so let's just let ourselves be surprised.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

However, I've had no idea that Horner is scoring the upcoming Poltergeist remake (didn't know about that either). I don't expect too much, but I'm kinda curious what he's going to do, so let's just let ourselves be surprised.

Better than some MV/RC crap.

[Hitch 57]

Horner conducting "The Star Spangled Banner" at the beginning and including the danger motif half way through it will be most interesting of all.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That'll be film music heaven.

[Maglorfin 196]

Horner conducting "The Star Spangled Banner" at the beginning and including the danger motif half way through it will be most interesting of all.

HAHA LOL

[publicist 4,643]

come on, why don't people admit that Jerry was the biggest self plagerist of all.

all of his Joe Dante scores sound similar, Star Trek, Alien, and Poltergeist have moments that you wonder is that from Alien, no its from Star Trek, no its from Poltergeist.

And don't forget these wicked self-stealings from 'The Final Conflict' in 'Mr. Baseball'!!!

[Neimoidian 14]

yes those Austrians are not to underestimate!

LOL I told my father about that release and he went nuts, so he will order it. I guess he doesn't share my opinion hehe

well maybe I'll give it a listen.

I wish my father would go nuts about film music and new releases. Unfortunatelly he is more like "who cares?" about them.

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm rather quite pleased. For as much as my dad has always been into rock, I've been able to really get him interested in film music. Mostly Star Wars, Indy, and Lord of the Rings, but those are rather accessible movies that he likes, and thus he likes the music.

[King Mark 3,631]

next Intrada holy grail release :Mr.Baseball 2 c.d. set

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

(Does anyone actually think Supergirl is a match for Superman?)

Dan Hobgood.

Actually, I might prefer Goldsmith's overture to Williams'.

[Morlock 11]

BLASPHEMY! The opening is probably my favorite part of JW's score.

[222max 1]

next Intrada holy grail release :Mr.Baseball 2 c.d. set

"Laugh it up fuzzball"

But I have been hoping for a CD release of John Scott's Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan for years. I hope that happens soon.

[Ollie 1,059]

(Does anyone actually think Supergirl is a match for Superman?)

Dan Hobgood.

Actually, I might prefer Goldsmith's overture to Williams'.

I'm sure Goldsmith would have delivered had he scored Superman as originally planned but as good as the Supergirl score is I still find myself skipping thru the CD. I don't do that with Superman.

This might be one of those cases where the shorter Varese CD would be the better listening choice.

[King Mark 3,631]

Supergirl is actually a pretty good Goldsmith score...but to start even comparing it with Williams Superman...that is the best example of FSM 's blind admiration of Goldsmith , second only to the King Solomon's Mines vs Raiders/ToD "debate"

[Henry B 50]

(Does anyone actually think Supergirl is a match for Superman?)

Dan Hobgood.

Naturally. My opinion is the opposite of Hobgood's: Goldsmith's overture, as good as it is, is nothing more than a silly parody. Williams' march has a greater measure of dignity. Obviously, I don't blame Goldsmith for getting such a lousy assignment.

[Morlock 11]

To be fair, Dr. Hobgood is not exactly your typical FSMer....

[Ollie 1,059]

His arguments do nothing to convince me, It's more of what he thinks film scoring should be Sometimes it feels like he's jealous and bitter of Williams' success. Which is weird because he claims to actually like Williams.

Supergirl is actually a pretty good Goldsmith score...but to start even comparing it with Williams Superman...that is the best example of FSM 's blind admiration of Goldsmith , second only to the King Solomon's Mines vs Raiders/ToD "debate"

Sounds more like "bitter John Williams fan who can't except that other composers can write good music syndrome" to me.

[Quintus 5,399]

the King Solomon's Mines vs Raiders/ToD "debate"

You mean one actually exists?

Heh heh, what a joke.