Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[Quintus 5,399]

Shanghai is a great opener, but it's no golden idol.

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

The way his character, and violence in general, was neutered in KOTCS is an abomination. RLM's Plinkett review really opened my eyes about how cynically produced the fourth film was, as if Spielberg was forced to take notes from focus groups about making the film as broadly appealing to families as possible. No gunshots, no blood, nobody killed by Indy (can't have him shoot anyone in this day and age) except that lame blowdart. The on-screen violence resembled a Loonie Tunes cartoon with laughably bad CGI deaths like the rocket sled fire, the nuke blowing up the car or Ivana turning into fairy dust.

 

Give me heads exploding, tanks blowing up with bodies flying everywhere, impalements through the chest with meat kebabs, hearts being ripped out of chests, men being sacrificed in rivers of lava, men being sucked into plane propellers and gigantic stone crushing machines, complete with blood spraying everywhere!

 

 

Yeah, with Disney involved don't expect a return to the old days.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

13 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

 I think it becomes tougher to adapt Indy into this time period.  With, like Crumbs mentioned, the Vietnam War and such going on, things are significantly less black and white than they used to be. The pro-America sentiments that adorned films like Raiders can't as easily be sprinkled in now. 

I never thought that Raiders was particularly "pro-American." In fact I can't think of an explicitly "pro-American" sentiment in the entire movie. It was certainly anti-NAZI, but that's not quite the same as being pro-America.

 

And I don't think the Vietnam era, and its shades of grey is particularly suited for an Indiana Jones film. In fact I think it's a pretty bad idea. These films are supposed to be black & white, with clearly defined heroes & villains. Moral ambiguity is great, but not for an Indy film. Like James Bond or Star Trek, mess with the formula too much and it loses what makes it special in the first place.

 

To me the way to solve the issues with the film being set in the 60's (and I guess it would have to be) would be to simply not deal with all the things associated with the 60's altogether. Oh, maybe during the obligatory teaching scene at the Uni have an anti-war protest going on, but then quickly take the film out of America and far away from what we associate with the 60's...perhaps to North or sub-Saharan Africa. China could be interesting, but I doubt Spielberg and the studio have the balls to feature Chinese villains. Which is a pity given that the Maoists at their worst were every bit as bad as the NAZI's.

 

All that said, I'm sure Spielberg and Koepp will fill with 60's cliches...the war, Kennedy, the Beatles, hippies, etc. Ugh.

13 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

I'm a bit concerned that, even if the stars do align, Spielberg has become a bit too much of a well-oiled film factory to allow for another great Indy film to happen. With everything seemingly being so planned and staged, his films display an immense amount of craftsmanship, but most have been lacking that spark of old as of late, at least for me. 
 

This I agree with. Spielberg is quite possibly the most technically proficient filmmaker working, but his recent films (well more than recent, going back at least a decade if not two) have an assembly line feel to them. Beautiful and competently executed, but missing  a spark as you say.

 

8 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

The way his character, and violence in general, was neutered in KOTCS is an abomination. 

Yes. The film was an embarrassment all the way around. The Die Another Day of Indy films. You just can't dump a bunch of things that look like the belong in an Indiana Jones movie and expect it to feel like one.  You also can't introduce too many new elements and change the tone/style and expect it to feel like one either.

14 hours ago, crumbs said:

Does anyone else think they'll jettison Marion/Mutt from this storyline? Koepp mentioned the story being "streamlined" which, to me, screams 'no baggage'. Forcing any old characters just seems like baggage to me.

My guess is they'll be mentioned in passing, probably with a single line, to explain their absence and that will be it.

 

Actually, like the Han Solo movie, I wish they weren't doing this at all. Indy should be set in the 30's/40's. They missed their opportunity to do some really cool stories set during the war, and Indy just doesn't belong in any other era (IMO).

[Bilbo 3,709]

10 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

There was some gory stuff in the POTC trilogy (throats being slit, Davy Jones' heart, Mercer's death...), and these were Disney movies.

 

 

 

Yeah Burbank Disney was very different when those films were made. 

 

Theres been a shift with Iger and his purchases of other studios. Everything now goes through a billion focus groups and is micro managed to avoid offending the sensibilities of the masses. 

[crumbs 14,317]

Ironically, KOTCS feels like a Disney movie. It's a shame not even Lucas objected, considering ROTS was pretty gruesome when it needed to be.

 

Unfortunately it was just Grandpa Spielberg, thinking of those impressionable young kids (can't have Indiana Jones shooting people with guns in this day and age!) and all those upset parents if anything in their four-quadrant revisionist version of Indiana Jones was too violent.

 

In many ways, it's worse than what Lucas did to his original Star Wars films (although Greedo shooting first is egregious for similar reasons -- a total misunderstanding of what makes the character loved by audiences).

[Bilbo 3,709]

I agree with all of that except the third paragraph.

[crumbs 14,317]

27 minutes ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

I agree with all of that except the third paragraph.

 

I disagree with your disagreeing of my third paragraph!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Yeah well. Tough. I'm master of the universe. Not you. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

He'll never do Vietnam.

Think "Vic Morrow".

[crumbs 14,317]

Yeah, unfortunately I just can't see Spielberg ever going down the Vietnam War path (especially if KOTCS is any indication). There's not much levity to focus on with that topic, like he'd never do lighthearted Nazis in the tone of earlier films either.

 

I think he's become very self-conscious with age about not offending anyone with his films. Munich was his last risky film and I think he struggled with the scrutiny.

[Skelly 261]

6 hours ago, Quintus said:

Is this real? Please tell me it isn't.

 

Oh, it's real. In today's episode, old Indy drives a monster truck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00uVYYvqwLc&t=6m25s

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

10 minutes ago, Skelly said:

 

Oh, it's real. In today's episode, old Indy drives a monster truck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00uVYYvqwLc&t=6m25s

 

So fitting that the words "Executive Produce: George Lucas" appear so prominently, and appropriately timed, in both those scenes. Really says it all.

 

Though I had forgotten that Harrison Ford had a cameo in that show as well.

 

 

[Skelly 261]

I think those "Old Indy" segments were purely a Lucas idea.

[Quintus 5,399]

So the official canon says that Indy became a grouchy OAP thug who banged on at youths about how they don't know they're born?

 

Seriously, Lucas should just kill himself.

[Jay 37,369]

Very timely of you to complain now about a 25 year old TV show

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

Clearly you haven't visited the Star Trek threads

[Quintus 5,399]

I never watched Young Indiana Jones (I briefly trialled it when I was a kid, but Flanery had inadequate charisma, zero ruggedness and the theme tune was all wrong) so I know very little about it.

[Bilbo 3,709]

14 minutes ago, Quintus said:

So the official canon says that Indy became a grouchy OAP thug who banged on at youths about how they don't know they're born?

 

Seriously, Lucas should just kill himself.

 

 

This is sort of shite became tired about a decade ago now.  

[Quintus 5,399]

It's Lucasfilm, so it'll run and run and run. It's like never forgetting the Holocaust.

 

And if you're telling me you're defending making Indiana Jones a narky old pensioner who causes scenes in fast food joints, there's nowt more I've got to say to you on the matter.

 

 

[Bespin 8,483]

As the Indy movie timeline sticks to the 40's-50's, the next will probably be set in the 60's.... but in another hand, it would be terrific to see Indiana Jones evolve in our modern world... So I stick to my idea of the Bermuda triangle... that imply of course... time travel.

 

What else after the lost Ark, some magical stones, the Holly Grail and aliens?

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

Atlantis? 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Temple of the Forbidden Eye!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Arizona.

[Bespin 8,483]

23 minutes ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

Atlantis? 

 

Indeed Antlantis is a myth that regained popularity in the 60's.

 

But Atlantis comes from a fiction story written by Plato (boring), the Bermuda Triangle is REAL!

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

How about this...the son of Belloq ("Junior"), is obsessed with Jones and blames him for the death of his father. He's ultra wealthy from his family's liquor business, and plans on using his fortune to enact his revenge on Jones.  To lure Indy out of retirement, he manages to steal the Ark, Grail and Sankara Stones. We also learn that he was responsible for the motorcycle "accident" that tragically killed Mutt several years earlier.  With the aid of kidnapped Jewish mystics, Bellq Jr. has learned how to open the Ark safely, and places the Sankara Stones and Grail within. When the Ark is opened with the powerful artifacts inside, it will unleash power the world has never seen. 

 

Indy leaves the cloistered world of academia one last time to hunt down Belloq Jr. and retrieve the stolen antiquities, but first he has to stop in Egypt to see an old friend, Sallah. But Indy's not the only only with a sidekick...Belloq Jr. has a deadly, one armed henchman that looks all too familiar, with his own mysterious grudge against Indy....one "Tall Round".

 

Indiana Jones and the Eternal Covenant. 

 

You're welcome.

 

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

29 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

Indeed Antlantis is a myth that regained popularity in the 60's.

 

But Atlantis comes from a fiction story written by Plato (boring), the Bermuda Triangle is REAL!

I appreciate your input, but a movie about Indy going after the Bermuda Triangle would be kinda boring though, don't ya think, man? I can tell you where the Bermuda Triangle is right now. It's right here... 

All Indy has to do is point at a map. End credits.  

 

Besides, I'm not sure it's really written anywhere that the objects Indy pursues have to be real. Take the Holy Grail, for instance. A continuing idea in The Last Crusade is whether or not Indy actually believes the grail in fact exists. 

[Bespin 8,483]

The Bermuda Triangle explained by Spielberg and Lucas could be anything but boring!

[Skelly 261]

A KOTCS-like Indiana Jones movie about the Bermuda Triangle would probably have mystic robots behind the whole thing, or maybe something worse.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The only thing that might work for me is a Rocketeer crossover. And I don't mean some reboot version with a black chick playing The Rocketeer, I mean the real Rocketeer. Cliff Secord portrayed by Bill Campbell. They both fought Nazis in a 1930s setting, they both had spectacular scores and they're now both owned by Disney. It's a no-brainer.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I have to admit some sort of Atlantis and/or Bermuda Triangle related mystery sounds pretty good to me.

Certainly a good film could be made surrounding that, especially if aliens are decidedly left OUT of it this time.

Bermuda Triangle and Atlantis are fairly compatible story elements anyway.

 

7 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

To me the way to solve the issues with the film being set in the 60's (and I guess it would have to be) would be to simply not deal with all the things associated with the 60's altogether. Oh, maybe during the obligatory teaching scene at the Uni have an anti-war protest going on, but then quickly take the film out of America and far away from what we associate with the 60's...

Works for me!

 

7 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

They missed their opportunity to do some really cool stories set during the war, and Indy just doesn't belong in any other era (IMO).

While I reckon they could do a fair enough Indy film even outside the WWII era, they definitely missed the opportunity to turn it into a James Bond style franchise.

That would have been ludicrously easy as the amount of potential for fun Indy films is pretty darn huge!

 

7 hours ago, crumbs said:

Greedo shooting first is egregious for similar reasons -- a total misunderstanding of what makes the character loved by audiences

Have to agree with you there.

 

 

[Jay 37,369]

34 minutes ago, Selina Kyle said:

The only thing that might work for me is a Rocketeer crossover. And I don't mean some reboot version with a black chick playing The Rocketeer, I mean the real Rocketeer. Cliff Secord portrayed by Bill Campbell. They both fought Nazis in a 1930s setting, they both had spectacular scores and they're now both owned by Disney. It's a no-brainer.

 

I'd watch that

[Bespin 8,483]

Oh please don't mix oranges and apples. The Rocketwhat? The flying guy in the ridiculous suit?

[Jay 37,369]

It's an excellent film with an excellent score, Bespin

 

 

[Bespin 8,483]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's an excellent film with an excellent score, Bespin

 

I was simply too old when it was released, never get hooked by it. I'm a 70's boy.

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

How about this...the son of Belloq ("Junior"), is obsessed with Jones and blames him for the death of his father. He's ultra wealthy from his family's liquor business, and plans on using his fortune to enact his revenge on Jones.  To lure Indy out of retirement, he manages to steal the Ark, Grail and Sankara Stones. We also learn that he was responsible for the motorcycle "accident" that tragically killed Mutt several years earlier.  With the aid of kidnapped Jewish mystics, Bellq Jr. has learned how to open the Ark safely, and places the Sankara Stones and Grail within. When the Ark is opened with the powerful artifacts inside, it will unleash power the world has never seen. 

 

Indy leaves the cloistered world of academia one last time to hunt down Belloq Jr. and retrieve the stolen antiquities, but first he has to stop in Egypt to see an old friend, Sallah. But Indy's not the only only with a sidekick...Belloq Jr. has a deadly, one armed henchman that looks all too familiar, with his own mysterious grudge against Indy....one "Tall Round".

 

Indiana Jones and the Eternal Covenant. 

 

You're welcome.

 

 

Still would have been better than KotCS.

[crumbs 14,317]

14 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

 

So fitting that the words "Executive Produce: George Lucas" appear so prominently, and appropriately timed, in both those scenes. Really says it all.

 

Though I had forgotten that Harrison Ford had a cameo in that show as well.

 

 

 

Ford felt more invested in his portrayal here than in KOTCS! Part-time!

 

I like the way they gave him a beard and longer hair, weren't afraid to shake things up.

 

I wish they'd adjusted his costume to reflect his age in KOTCS; he looked ridiculous at times dressing in the exact same costume as that in Raiders. The Last Crusade was 20 years earlier and cleverly matured the outfit with a tie. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Some people hated the tie!

[crumbs 14,317]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Some people hated the tie!

 

Yeah, I don't get that. It's not like the costume is so sacrosanct that you can't tweak it in each film.

 

I love seeing Indy being Indy in different costumes (even the Professor costume in the College chase)!

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Part tie.

[Quintus 5,399]

I never even noticed the tie till I read people on here about 10 years ago saying they didn't like it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Same here. It's a complete non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

[crumbs 14,317]

26 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Same here. It's a complete non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

Yep, your brain just subconsciously thinks of Indy as a more mature, wiser type because his costume has matured with his age.

 

Conversely, old Harrison dressing up like Raiders Indy feels contradictory; your brain notices that too (for the wrong reasons).

 

It's pretty incredible that JJ Abrams realised these things over Spielberg. You sure as hell didn't see TFA Han Solo in exactly the same clothes as SW OT Han Solo.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I wish Han had a tie in TFA...

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

19 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

It's pretty incredible that JJ Abrams realised these things over Spielberg. You sure as hell didn't see TFA Han Solo in exactly the same clothes as SW OT Han Solo.

Even ESB Solo didn't dress the same as SW Solo.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

22 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Yep, your brain just subconsciously thinks of Indy as a more mature, wiser type because his costume has matured with his age.

 

 

Nonsense! A tie has nothing to do with old age. It certainly didn't in that era. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The tie is a lie.

[Quintus 5,399]

He should have dressed more like Deckard in TFA.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It will happen! Disney is watching the development of BR 2 with great interest!