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Do you *really* think Shore's LOTR is as good as Williams' Star Wars OT?

Ricard

By Ricard
in General Discussion

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John Willams' Star Wars OT vs. Howard Shore's The Lord of the Rings  

69 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one's better?

    • John Williams' Star Wars Original Trilogy (Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi)
      44
    • Howard Shore's The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King)
      9
    • They are both equally good
      16

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Hlao-roo
Hlao-roo

Neither trilogy is representative of good film music, so I'm not really sure what the point of this poll is. You might as well be comparing polio to smallpox. It's well-established that leitmotif is a

Incanus
Incanus

In all fairness very few composer would have created the leitmotific depth for Lord of the Rings that Shore built. I think it is the closest film scores have come to actual Wagnerian approach to under

Seth
Seth

Star Wars, absolutely. While I think it's fair to say that Shore's narrative cohesion and ambition are impressive, I'm not sure it should affect how we evaluate the score. Shore knew from the start wh

Incanus

Incanus 5,716

Posted
Posted

Wow I didn't expect this xylo-backlash! My xylophonophobia isn't so bad that I couldn't enjoy it in an action cue once in a while though. But cues like Anakin's Dark Deeds doesn't really need the clippity-clop of xylophones to add to the drama.


The LOTR scores work great in the films but they are some of the least listened to CD's in my collection. They're just too monotonous to listen to out of context for me.

I can't agree but I gain nothing by trying to prove otherwise.

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Incanus

Incanus 5,716

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And what Xylophone parts do you hate in Jerry's works?

I can picture you grinding the executioner's axe ready for me...

I do not particularly enjoy the xylophones in the First Knight for example. They do blend a bit better in Jerry's action music but still sometimes sound distractingly xylophonic (i.e. funny) when the emotional cue of the music should be action or drama or both.

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#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265

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I think this may be due to a misconception ofn the part of the listener (you) rather then a fundamental flaw with the xylophone, or Jerry Goldsmith's use for it.

Sadly there are many composers out there who seem to regard it as a "comedy" instrument nowadays and avoid it.

But surely they cannot know better then masters like Goldsmith or Williams, who used the whole range of instruments available to them rather then limiting the orchestral palette to what is perceived more "fitting".

The modern tendency to not use certain instruments or performance styles because they are seen as "comedy" is precisely the reason why a lot of scores are missing certain orchestral colors. The death of pizzicato in film music for instance, or the general opinion that seems to exist with certain composers that a clarinet or flute sounds "cheesy".

Listen to the use of xylophones in First Blood part 2, Total recall etc etc....It's mighty thuds only adding to Jerry's testosterone fueled fury.

You know nothing Mikko Snow!

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Incanus

Incanus 5,716

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You know nothing Mikko Snow!

Yes it is entirely my misconception that I don't like the sound of xylophones. I have been known to not know anything quite frequently.

But where is the hateful and spiteful argument over LotR and SW I might ask. We are veering away from the main bone of contention here!

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Quintus

Quintus 5,399

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Wow I didn't expect this xylo-backlash! My xylophonophobia isn't so bad that I couldn't enjoy it in an action cue once in a while though. But cues like Anakin's Dark Deeds doesn't really need the clippity-clop of xylophones to add to the drama.

Disagree, I think they add signature Williams precision to the drama of the cue, they inject urgency and dramatic clarity; a quality of pace and definition famously lacking in Shore's often extremely ponderous LotR underscore.

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Incanus

Incanus 5,716

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Wow I didn't expect this xylo-backlash! My xylophonophobia isn't so bad that I couldn't enjoy it in an action cue once in a while though. But cues like Anakin's Dark Deeds doesn't really need the clippity-clop of xylophones to add to the drama.

Disagree, I think they add signature Williams precision to the drama of the cue, they inject urgency and dramatic clarity; a quality of pace and definition famously lacking in Shore's often extremely ponderous LotR underscore.

Flutes and xylophones just make it sound like chickens were in a feeding frenzy behind all the otherwise brilliant churning music. Xylophone trills in a scene like that!?? The horror, the horror!

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Incanus

Incanus 5,716

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I actually like a lot of the Xylophone runs in JW's action music. The instances where I don't like it ("General Grievous") are completely due the music itself.

Hey Grievous is a great example of where I find them quite palatable!

His The Edge score has some nice ones in there too!

The Edge doesn't have distracting xylophone in it I am happy to say. A fine score from start to finish. I especially like how Jerry who didn't use electronics in the score and used regular acoustic instruments to produce those sounds he would have normally used synthesizers for. Those little trumpet figures in the opening flying montage cues are a good example.

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publicist

publicist 4,643

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Posted

Williams xylophone history in the realm of action music in the last 15 years is a rather irritating one. Where in Goldsmith's stripped-down orchestrations the xylophone figured prominently i don't know...except bouncy comedy music there hardly was much of that. Grating synthesizer sounds i give you, though.

Shore's stiff orchestrations certainly rejected such animated ideas like a teflon pan.

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JoeinAR

JoeinAR 1,949

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Emotionally, yes. There is nothing of the same caliber in any of the Star Wars films. Williams is able to elevate them only because of who he is.

If Williams had scored LOTR, and Shore SW, SW would be seen as the glossy, if entertaining, husk that it is. Even more so than it is already.

Shoula woulda coulda but dinit. Star Wars was scored by Williams. Few things compare. If LOTR is better scoreless than Star Wars so what. The film Star Wars being elevated by John's great score is the purpose of film scoring, or at least that's how it used to work.

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JoeinAR

JoeinAR 1,949

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I like the part where you completely misunderstood me.

I didn't misunderstand you at all. You're talking hypothetical.

Both trilogy scores exist in the here and now. Both are remarkably loved though one is uplifting and rousing and the other exists on A different more somber level to me

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Jay

Jay 37,378

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Well. I have abstained from voting and discussing really because this is a pretty damn difficult decision! It is like picking between my children!

I mean, the Star Wars tril is what started it all for me - my first film score purchase, my entry into the greatest hobby, my discovery of my internet home - but there is no doubt that in the past 10 years, there are no scores that I've played more, studied more, discussed more, and been moved by more than the LOTR tril.

I have been thinking about this regardless, and I have to say that what be the deciding factor here is the third entry. In both trilogies, film-wise the third entry is a let down, not able to live up to the preceding chapters fully, with the main creative force getting too narrow-minded to step back and see what would have served their creation the best (Lucas in preproduction, Jackson in post production). Score wise, this had basically no impact on Williams, as he delivered a completely satisfying score that in many ways succeeds where the film doesn't. I love the "Score almost all the movie wall to wall" nature of it, including the final 40 continuous minutes or whatever, and how the Luke, Force, Vader and even the new Emperor theme get satisfying conclusions. It's a great score, and its always hard to pick among the three which is the best because they're all so damn good.

But for LOTR, the third entry's score has always been hard for me to quantify exactly what it is that doesn't make it truly satisfying for me. Figuring out why the film doesn't is easier - FOTR is a masterpiece of practical effects, unforgettable performances, stunning cinematography, economy of character, and streamlined plot. The characters go from A to B to C and the score does to, its a fantastic journey. TTT breaks our characters apart, and now PJ has to juggle a whole bunch of different stories, new characters that aren't instant classics likes the ones introduced in FOTR, and along the way he started to get too crazy about the color grading and last minute CGI shot requests - but not fully crazy. TTT still works as a film, and score, both stunning examples of how to make an excellent sequel. Sadly by ROTK, PJ had just gone nutty. The final film, either version, is for large chunks a mess of editing, over-reliance on CGI, and color-grading to hell. Reshoots had replaced some of his earlier ideas with new ones, and he continually edited the film right up until the final deadline, so much so that he never saw the completed film from beginning to end until the film's premier. It's a shame too because parts of the film are brilliant, and in every way a worthy followup and conclusion to the preceding chapters. But then other parts are these hastily edited, rushed CGI, and/or pointless indulgences that just shouldn't have been there. The PJ that made FOTR did not exist anymore by the time of ROTK. But what about the score?

Well, for me, the Shore that wrote FOTR is still the Shore that made ROTK, but even that is not enough to overcome the madness of PJ and the ridiculous post-production process of the film. Like the film, the score has moments of breathtaking awesomess, that in every way pay off what had been built up in the previous chapters. And other parts are just kind of there, just kind of existing because it has to. There is nothing in the FOTR or TTT score I ever want to skip, but ROTK has plenty of those moments. There isn't any 5 second chunk of FOTR or ROTK that I couldn't identify exactly what cue it is, but for ROTK there's plenty I'd have no idea about (Well, I'm sure I'd have a general idea, but not a specific track name). The fact that PJ was continually editing the film and delivering separate edited chunks to HS for scoring really shows, in my opinion. FOTR is a masterwork, the most cohesive score of the trilogy. When listening, you know exactly what scene is it, and every track seems to lead right into the next one, like every scene in the film leads to the next. This "road movie" nature of the film helps with this, of course. TTT is not like that, but it's not fully opposite either. Because of the nature of the film - covering different groups of characters, many of whom never interact with each other, simultaneously, means the score itself has many different flavors. Within each stretch of film though, the tracks go well into the next, but then as the film jumps to someone else for a while, the score must too - which makes it less cohesive, but the talent of Shore makes it all work regardless, and its another masterwork.

For ROTK this is not hte case with me, however. While FOTR and TTT have many long tracks, as Shore was able to score long stretches of film with a musical idea that made sense and brought it all together, with ROTK I get the impression of him just receiving a 2 minute scene one day and having to score it, a 3 minute scene from another part of the film another day and having to score that, etc. The presentation has many more smaller tracks, and there is almost no direct connection between them - other than the themes and general musical canvas Shore uses of course. I'm not trying to say it's an epic failure by any means - I'm just saying with FOTR, it seems like the ending of tracks are written knowing how the next one will start, the entire score flows perfectly the entire time. With ROTK the individual tracks may be great - and may contain some of the best music of the entire series - but there is far less glue binding one track to the next. It's like Shore entered this project with all the ideas to score it the way he wanted, got delivered the first 2 entries in full so he could expertly dole out his plan, and then had to just put his final chapters down in pieces in a random order because the nature of the film's post production changed on him and there was nothing anyone could do about it. That it still came out as fantastic as it did is a remarkable feat, and a true testament to how talented Shore.

Basically, it comes down like this, I think: For the Star Wars trilogy, the three scores are all 10/10 efforts. For the LOTR tril, it's two 10/10 scores followed by a 9/10, and that's through no fault of the composers in my opinion, but more of a crazy director who didn't trust all the original instincts he had when editing the first 2 entries, and went off the deep end affecting every aspect of production including the score. I know many people think ROTK is the best of the three, and I totally agree it has many of the best moments, but for me FOTR will always be the best film and score of the three.

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nightscape94

nightscape94 965

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If my internet is down and I can't access YouTube to nod off to some ASMR chick roleplaying as a make-up artist, I just chuck on any LOTR score. It creates the same effect.

Got a pick a better scenario though. Shave and a haircut.

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Unlucky Bastard

Unlucky Bastard 7,782

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If my internet is down and I can't access YouTube to nod off to some ASMR chick roleplaying as a make-up artist, I just chuck on any LOTR score. It creates the same effect.

Got a pick a better scenario though. Shave and a haircut.

Depends on whose voice I'm in the mood to fall asleep to. Sometimes it's MariaGentleWhispering, TheOneLilium, ASMRrequests, QueenofSerene, HaileyWhisperingRose, or hey even ASMRGenie does a great and relaxing Benedict Cumberbatch impression.

Or just watching any old Bob Ross show has similar sleepy triggers.

Or even a LOTR score.

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Uni

Uni 306

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I love all the films. I love each score. In the end, I'd have to give the edge to SW . . . although I'd have to confess that some of it--the main theme in particular--has become some of the only JW music I've ever grown a little tired of. (Doubtless because of its endless air time; no film music concert ever seems to get by without it.)

For ROTK this is not hte case with me, however. While FOTR and TTT have many long tracks, as Shore was able to score long stretches of film with a musical idea that made sense and brought it all together, with ROTK I get the impression of him just receiving a 2 minute scene one day and having to score it, a 3 minute scene from another part of the film another day and having to score that, etc. The presentation has many more smaller tracks, and there is almost no direct connection between them - other than the themes and general musical canvas Shore uses of course. I'm not trying to say it's an epic failure by any means - I'm just saying with FOTR, it seems like the ending of tracks are written knowing how the next one will start, the entire score flows perfectly the entire time. With ROTK the individual tracks may be great - and may contain some of the best music of the entire series - but there is far less glue binding one track to the next. It's like Shore entered this project with all the ideas to score it the way he wanted, got delivered the first 2 entries in full so he could expertly dole out his plan, and then had to just put his final chapters down in pieces in a random order because the nature of the film's post production changed on him and there was nothing anyone could do about it. That it still came out as fantastic as it did is a remarkable feat, and a true testament to how talented Shore.

Basically, it comes down like this, I think: For the Star Wars trilogy, the three scores are all 10/10 efforts. For the LOTR tril, it's two 10/10 scores followed by a 9/10, and that's through no fault of the composers in my opinion, but more of a crazy director who didn't trust all the original instincts he had when editing the first 2 entries, and went off the deep end affecting every aspect of production including the score.

Wow . . . I think you just put your finger on something that's nagged at me for a long time but that I've never quite been able to identify. Well spotted and spoken.

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Quintus

Quintus 5,399

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So in the end Jason didn't vote but went with Star Wars anyway.

Lee - loves the RotK score even though it's laden with typical Shore 'filler' (all three are).

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publicist

publicist 4,643

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Posted

Just stop spending so much time with this stuff. There's much more exciting music out there than Howard Shore's recommendable but hardly (middle) earth-shattering writing, just get all the Goldenthal's you still don't have and have a ball with it!

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