A.I. Artificial Intelligence (2001) - 2015 3CD set from La-La Land Records

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hundreds of themes and motifs is more realistic.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

No, not at all. It's well known that Williams has written more themes than there are stars in the Milky Way galaxy. You're just denying it because you're a filthy Zimmer fan.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, JW's career spans almost 6 decades, during which he wrote literally thousands and thousands of themes. Certain pieces are bound to bear similarities with each other. It's just coincidence, as likely as not, unless there's further indications to the contrary.

Exaggeration much?

Not much, maybe a little.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Hundreds of themes and motifs is more realistic.

And relatable.

[Indianagirl 298]

Hundreds of themes and motifs is more realistic.

Is there a difference between a theme and a motif?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

"Themes tend to be long melodies and motifs are short blasts of things." - James Horner

[Indianagirl 298]

"Themes tend to be long melodies and motifs are short blasts of things." - James Horner

Would an example of a Motif be the piano cue Horner liked to use a lot in dramatic moments. Like say the one in Apollo 13 where in the middle of the score this three or four note dramatic piano cue would come in and then dissappear. He used that technique several times. I am not certain as if I am properly describing what I am trying to say.

[Jay 37,364]

Sounds like the danger motif

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

No, that's not in the score. I think I know what you mean. I'll find a video in a bit.

Ok, you're either referring to these little piano gestures at, for example, 4:03, but I think this isn't what you mean:

Or, more likely, the classic Horner rolled piano chords that we were talking about in another thread recently, like here at 10 seconds in:

Yes, no?

Anyway, a useful way to distinguish between a melody and a motive/motif is to think about how complete an idea it is. A melody is comprised of several phrases, like a sentence. A motive is a briefer idea, maybe like just one of those phrases that might make up a larger melody.

The examples that most people use to explain this would be the "Ode to Joy" melody from Beethoven's 9th, and then the "duh duh duh duhhhh" motive from his 5th. The first is a lengthy, complete musical thought, and the second is a fleeting snatch of an idea. Both more or less define the movements of the symphonies they appear in, though.

Here's a melody from Apollo 13, at 6:11. Listen to how it goes through several phrases, like someone speaking, just... with music instead of words.

Now here's an example of a motive from the same score. The four rising notes that first come in at 27 seconds. That figure gets repeated and developed - shortened, lengthened, altered rhythmically or intervallically, generally changed while still remaining identifiable - over the course of the cue.

Oh what the hell, this is the A.I. thread so let's have some examples from that score too! Ok Mike!

The seven notes that start out this cue and then run throughout: motive. But then at 0:55... what's this? A longer idea with multiple phrases? That's a melody.

Now before somebody gets wise and says that those seven notes might be also called an ostinato, I'll point out that the borders of these terminologies are fuzzy and that music is music, and the great thing is that once you get a good sense of what's what, you don't have to worry about it and split hairs anymore and decide whether or not it's obstinate enough to be an ostinato or motivic enough to be a motive. It just is. Cells of single notes or clusters of notes strung together to form linear ideas, either big rhetorical ones or small ones ripe for development and contrapuntal spinning.

[Indianagirl 298]

Pilgrim,

Wow Thank You!

I was referring more to the first example at 4:03 and the very last Apollo 13 example you provided but at 2:05 not :27. I think I understand what you mean about a motive being an idea rather than a completed phrase. The A.I. (one of my absolute favorite films and scores) was a very good example.

However, reading your answer has created a question I didn't have before now. Would the five note greeting from Close Encounters be considered a motive or melody? My guess is motive even though it expresses such a major idea in the film itself it never really launches into a bigger idea like the bit you selected from A.I. The five notes are very easy to count with whisteling and fingers.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It certainly is more motivic for the majority of the film, but when the great finale starts, he does transform it a bit and extend it into a melodic structure with multiple phrases.

Wild Signals is a great example of developing a motive.

[Indianagirl 298]

When the mother ship communicates back. I can see that. I haven't listened to it in a long time.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Starting at 3:11, here he's turned it into something more melodic.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well, JW's career spans almost 6 decades, during which he wrote literally thousands and thousands of themes. Certain pieces are bound to bear similarities with each other. It's just coincidence, as likely as not, unless there's further indications to the contrary.

Exaggeration much?

Not much, maybe a little.

Lol what? No composer has written thousands of themes.

[Josh500 1,615]

"Themes tend to be long melodies and motifs are short blasts of things." - James Horner

Themes are melodies associated with certain characters, situations, etc. whereas motifs are just any melodies. That's what I would have said.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I was referring more to the first example at 4:03 and the very last Apollo 13 example you provided but at 2:05 not :27.

Ah ok so you meant little piano runs or clusters. Yeah, they could be called motives if they appear enough that they start to seem thematic, but I wouldn't call either of those instances motives. They're just momentary figures.

[Josh500 1,615]

Hundreds of themes and motifs is more realistic.

And relatable.

JW has scored more or less a hundred feature films as well as many concert pieces. There's no doubt he's written at least a thousand motifs, themes, melodies etc. in his career.

[Wojo 2,453]

That's not thousands and thousands. 1,999 isn't even thousands and thousands.

[Indianagirl 298]

I was referring more to the first example at 4:03 and the very last Apollo 13 example you provided but at 2:05 not :27.

Ah ok so you meant little piano runs or clusters. Yeah, they could be called motives if they appear enough that they start to seem thematic, but I wouldn't call either of those instances motives. They're just momentary figures.

Gotcha. I see exactly what you mean. Momentary figure absolutely describes the bit at 2:05! For some reason I've never forgotten that specific momentary figure since seeing Apollo 13 as a child.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yeah, I was trying to make a point. Whatever.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

We will not debate Horner's profound wisdom at these proceedings.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I was referring more to the first example at 4:03 and the very last Apollo 13 example you provided but at 2:05 not :27.

Ah ok so you meant little piano runs or clusters. Yeah, they could be called motives if they appear enough that they start to seem thematic, but I wouldn't call either of those instances motives. They're just momentary figures.

Gotcha. I see exactly what you mean. Momentary figure absolutely describes the bit at 2:05! For some reason I've never forgotten that specific momentary figure since seeing Apollo 13 as a child.

We had quite a discussion on just those clusters last year. If this is the sort of thing you're into, you won't be disappointed by this place.

[Indianagirl 298]

I've always been interested in movie scores. It's something I used to share with my brother. All of my friends listen to regular music so I was basically just looking to see if there were other people out there who shared my musical tastes. If I can pickup some actual technical knowledge along the way then all the better

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Those piano elbow clusters (the player is asked to literally slam his/her elbow on the keys, either or going up or down) are one of Horner's recurring orchestral gestures like the seagull effect on the strings in Cosmo, Old Friend from Sneakers and at the very of Death of Titanic (the bit with the quote from Mahler's 8th, which sounds somewhat like the theme from Schindler's List).

This is how George Crumb originally notated it for cello in his 1971 piece Vox Balaenae (Voice of the Whale).

Here's another example.

At 3:02 Horner asks for one of the percussion players to bow a styrofoam cup, creating a nasty "nails on a chalkboard" sonority. This appears in a few other Horner scores (although I can't quote them off-hand), and Don Davis (who orchestrated for Horner in the 90s) later borrowed the same effect for one of the scenes where the back of Neo's head is 'plugged in' in The Matrix (01:30 in Cold Hearted Switch). You can't really hear it, because it's a painful soundmass also including violins on their highest possible notes, fluttertonguing (rolling an r while blowing) wind and brass clusters, bowed waterphone, scraped china cymbal and yep... elbow clusters!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Gotta remember to play those glisses in a timeless and inchoate way.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Exactly! Nothing else will suffice.

[Incanus 5,715]

"Themes tend to be long melodies and motifs are short blasts of things." - James Horner

Themes are melodies associated with certain characters, situations, etc. whereas motifs are just any melodies. That's what I would have said.

A motif VS theme is an old division which can be a bit artificial depending on what you are after my labeling something a theme or a motif. A motif can certainly have a leitmotific and hence thematic relevance as well. E.g. the 2-note motif for the shark in Jaws is a theme for the shark (and Williams does heavily expand upon it in the score) but it is not a long musical phrase most people would call a theme.

[Indianagirl 298]

"Themes tend to be long melodies and motifs are short blasts of things." - James Horner

Themes are melodies associated with certain characters, situations, etc. whereas motifs are just any melodies. That's what I would have said.

A motif VS theme is an old division which can be a bit artificial depending on what you are after my labeling something a theme or a motif. A motif can certainly have a leitmotific and hence thematic relevance as well. E.g. the 2-note motif for the shark in Jaws is a theme for the shark (and Williams does heavily expand upon it in the score) but it is not a long musical phrase most people would call a theme.

So did John Williams redefine the line between motif and theme with Jaws?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I wouldn't say so. Motives have functioned thematically for centuries, just as long-lined melodies have. They're just the two sides of "thematic material." At least in a traditional sense. Now any musical element can function thematically.

If you want something that exists in some strange space between melody and motive, check out some fugue subjects.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The Shark figure is still a motif, as is the ascending horn/tuba idea. I'd say the only significant theme in the film is the Sea Shanty Theme.

[publicist 4,643]

Those piano elbow clusters (the player is asked to literally slam his/her elbow on the keys, either or going up or down) are one of Horner's recurring orchestral gestures like the seagull effect on the strings in Cosmo, Old Friend from Sneakers and at the very of Death of Titanic (the bit with the quote from Mahler's 8th, which sounds somewhat like the theme from Schindler's List).

Horner did remember the russian (naturally!) composer Alexander Mosolov for a lot of these dense tension cues, cf. THE IRON FOUNDRY:

[Josh500 1,615]

I wouldn't say so. Motives have functioned thematically for centuries, just as long-lined melodies have. They're just the two sides of "thematic material." At least in a traditional sense. Now any musical element can function thematically.

If you want something that exists in some strange space between melody and motive, check out some fugue subjects.

I agree with you, but it's motif, not motive, you know.

The latter is the reason why a criminal did what he did.

[Incanus 5,715]

"Themes tend to be long melodies and motifs are short blasts of things." - James Horner

Themes are melodies associated with certain characters, situations, etc. whereas motifs are just any melodies. That's what I would have said.

A motif VS theme is an old division which can be a bit artificial depending on what you are after my labeling something a theme or a motif. A motif can certainly have a leitmotific and hence thematic relevance as well. E.g. the 2-note motif for the shark in Jaws is a theme for the shark (and Williams does heavily expand upon it in the score) but it is not a long musical phrase most people would call a theme.

So did John Williams redefine the line between motif and theme with Jaws?

I wouldn't say so. Motives have functioned thematically for centuries, just as long-lined melodies have. They're just the two sides of "thematic material." At least in a traditional sense. Now any musical element can function thematically.

Agreed. It is mostly nomenclature and labeling anyway. Jaws was not groundbreaking in using a 2-note motif as a leitmotif for the shark.

Leitmotifically the consistent use of a theme/motif is more important factor to my mind. It needs to be used more than once if it is to have leitmotific meaning, otherwise a musical phrase, short or long, is just a singular musical phrase. It might have dramatic application in a scene but if there is no continuity, no further usage in the film, I would say it isn't a theme in leitmotific sense. Sure a composer can create a scene specific piece of music with a melody or motif but I usually wouldn't count it as a leitmotif per se.

I wouldn't say so. Motives have functioned thematically for centuries, just as long-lined melodies have. They're just the two sides of "thematic material." At least in a traditional sense. Now any musical element can function thematically.

If you want something that exists in some strange space between melody and motive, check out some fugue subjects.

I agree with you, but it's motif, not motive, you know.

Actually both spellings exist.

[Josh500 1,615]

So the 2-note motif was used as a theme for the shark.

[publicist 4,643]

The theme from JAWS consists of more than two notes. That's gross misrepresentation.

[Incanus 5,715]

The theme from JAWS consists of more than two notes. That's gross misrepresentation.

Indeed it does consist of more than those notes but the 2-note and variations is a prominent part of it, to a degree it becomes the strongest thematic element associated with the shark. I have always thought the Spielberg anecdote gross exaggeration as the theme was indeed "weird and melodic" as he initially hoped for rather than just those 2 notes. But I guess his first impression was really for those 2 notes and I understand his reaction. The whole theme is a lot more than that.

[publicist 4,643]

It's a motivic element that's part of a larger whole. This whole consists of a chorus and a bridge. I'm not too fuzzy about these things but as it stands, there is no 'theme from Jaws' that doesn't include the three-note tuba kind-of-theme and string bridge. The basses are just a driving rhythm and only used as such.

[A24 4,335]

The two notes is what people recognize and are able to hum. It's the part that everybody uses when they want to refer to Jaws.

[publicist 4,643]

The discussion was about themes and motifs, not what people hum.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I wouldn't say so. Motives have functioned thematically for centuries, just as long-lined melodies have. They're just the two sides of "thematic material." At least in a traditional sense. Now any musical element can function thematically.

If you want something that exists in some strange space between melody and motive, check out some fugue subjects.

I agree with you, but it's motif, not motive, you know.

The latter is the reason why a criminal did what he did.

...no.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

a question, inside dr know goes before or after immaculate heart?

i cant check the film right now, neither read the liner notes nor this thread propperly (using the phone and not good internet with it... :\)

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Those piano elbow clusters (the player is asked to literally slam his/her elbow on the keys, either or going up or down) are one of Horner's recurring orchestral gestures like the seagull effect on the strings in Cosmo, Old Friend from Sneakers and at the very of Death of Titanic (the bit with the quote from Mahler's 8th, which sounds somewhat like the theme from Schindler's List).

Horner did remember the russian (naturally!) composer Alexander Mosolov for a lot of these dense tension cues, cf. THE IRON FOUNDRY:

Yes, that's definitely a big influence on the mechanical action writing of Wolfen, Aliens and other scores at that time. Not my favourite of Horner's sounds I must admit, but it did its job.

The elbow cluster thing has its origins with American composer Henry Cowell.

[Corellian2019 386]

a question, inside dr know goes before or after immaculate heart?

It goes after Immaculate Heart

[Jay 37,364]

It goes after Immaculate Heart, of course!

Immaculate Heart is the cue for when they are, well, standing in front of the Immaculate Heart, where Joe suggests they go talk to Dr. Know!

[Uni 306]

The theme from JAWS consists of more than two notes. That's gross misrepresentation.

Indeed it does consist of more than those notes but the 2-note and variations is a prominent part of it, to a degree it becomes the strongest thematic element associated with the shark. I have always thought the Spielberg anecdote gross exaggeration as the theme was indeed "weird and melodic" as he initially hoped for rather than just those 2 notes. But I guess his first impression was really for those 2 notes and I understand his reaction. The whole theme is a lot more than that.

Absolutely true. Actually, it's a very interesting theme in that it seems to be made up of several motifs, none of which really develops into a theme of its own during the duration of the score—the two-note repetition, the three-note horn piece (which flourishes a bit but doesn't really develop), the syncopated bass hits, and the insertion of the sort of half-theme "pirate" motif (the one that begins "Out to Sea") over the whole thing in the middle . . . and the assemblage as a whole becomes the main theme, used in place of a long-lined melody.

Leitmotifically the consistent use of a theme/motif is more important factor to my mind. It needs to be used more than once if it is to have leitmotific meaning, otherwise a musical phrase, short or long, is just a singular musical phrase. It might have dramatic application in a scene but if there is no continuity, no further usage in the film, I would say it isn't a theme in leitmotific sense. Sure a composer can create a scene specific piece of music with a melody or motif but I usually wouldn't count it as a leitmotif per se.

I would debate this. Again, it's just semantics, but if a single scene has an identifiable melodic line that repeats and becomes a prominent part of that scene, even if it doesn't appear again for the rest of the film, I would call that a theme—maybe not in the "leitmotivic sense," as you say, but a theme written specifically for that sequence. And no one's better at that than Williams. Great examples include the extended melody that emerges from the sick triceratops scene from Jurassic Park (everyone reading this knows what I'm talking about, which is why I feel justified in calling it a theme), "Jim's New Life" from Empire of the Sun, and many others.

I'd say the only significant theme in the film is the Sea Shanty Theme.

Hardly. "The Shark Cage Fugue" is one of Williams' great themes from that period. And, by the definition I stated above, I would say "Montage" and even the music from the scene with Ben Gardner's boat would count as themes (although the latter is a little iffy in that it's a single musical idea that moves around a lot but never really repeats during the course of the scene).

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

thanks to everyone about my chronological question

[Jay 37,364]

My spreadsheet shows everything in chrono order too, if you're interested in more info

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ozno1qF5SBxEyyYIQWyMf0vlwBoR23D_HrbEjHTm_Sw/pubhtml

[A24 4,335]

The discussion was about themes and motifs, not what people hum.

The general rule of thumb is: That what people hum is the theme or the motif.

The two note motif is the essence of the shark theme. In order to be effective, it doesn't even need the tuba or the rest. You can leave everything out except the double bass line.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

You're all mixing up terms. Both melodies and motives can be themes. "Theme" implies any musical element that recurs and has dramatic significance. Don't equate theme and melody - that just unnecessarily confuses things.