Will 2,215 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Here's a question I just thought about: Why do JW's orchestrators never (or, perhaps, rarely; there could be some instances) get credited in the OST booklet (but they are credited in the film end credits, of course)? ROTS is one example. Williams is a humble and gracious man, apparently even, for instance, being the one to ask for Ross's name to be on the COS cover (I thought I read that somewhere). This was something that, obviously, significantly downgraded Williams's perceived role. So why, when the music editor, mixer, album producer, music prep, co-conductors, and recordists are credited do the orchestrators never seem to get a credit? (And, yes, I know that Williams doesn't always use orchestrators (e.g. BFG), but he often does.) Additionally, the specialty label releases, which Williams surely approves, always credit all the orchestrators. Strange. Is there some complex mess of various music union contacts that obligates JW not to credit orchestrators on the OST? I don't know how it works in general with other composers, but I do know that the Giacchino Jurassic World booklet credits orchestrators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 It is weird. I think the standard excuse is that they're really just acting as glorified copyists for Williams scores, which is pretty true, but I don't see why they aren't included anyhow. Maybe there's a fear that uninformed listeners will misinterpret the meaning of the word and believe Williams needed help writing the music? Dunno. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 That's what I thought too, but you'd think they'd at least get a "special thanks" or "copyist" mention or something even if JW didn't want them credited as orchestrators. Perhaps the orchestrators are contracted though JKMS, so the JKMS music prep credit is a blanket credit covering all orchestrators? Still though... Very confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,844 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 It depends on the album and what is contractually obligated and how JW feels in terms of crediting contributors. I remember an interview once where someone said the obligations are different between film credits and album credits. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I've always found this weird as well. Why was William Ross credited with adapting his music, but the orchestrators get the shaft? Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,318 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Maybe JW only includes tracks on his OSTs that he feels were 100% his making, with orchestrations completely written out (and the orchestrators merely transpose his writing to sheet music)? While on other cues he allows his orchestrators to "fill in the gaps" but omits these cues from his OST presentations (thus explaining why they receive credit on expanded releases when said cues are reinstated). Or maybe he's just a secret egomaniac. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RICHARDSTRAUSS68 107 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, crumbs said: Maybe JW only includes tracks on his OSTs that he feels were 100% his making, with orchestrations completely written out (and the orchestrators merely transpose his writing to sheet music)? While on other cues he allows his orchestrators to "fill in the gaps" but omits these cues from his OST presentations (thus explaining why they receive credit on expanded releases when said cues are reinstated). Or maybe he's just a secret egomaniac. Well based on the JW Sketches I have seen and talking to an orchestrator that has worked with him that JW Practilly just has them copy over to the staff paper his sketches clearly show everything so they are just copyist and nothing more for him 90% of the time and the same goes for JG. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted December 31, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2016 Dill weed. In the cabinet. Second shelf to the left. Behind the oregano. RICHARDSTRAUSS68, crumbs and MikeH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I know I brought this exact interview somewhere else, but it's worth bringing it up again. CP refers to Conrad Pope Quote CC: I just had a quick look at the notes for the original Sony Classical release for Episode 1, but didn’t find your name there, unfortunately. CP: John’s point is that, he is the author of that music – fully and completely. When you take one of his albums, he is saying, “Look I am the architect of all the colors and you (the orchestrator) have just executed them.” And this makes perfect sense. I’m the same way. CC: But you are credited in many of the film credits. CP: Yes. You see, in the picture business the orchestration credit is a specific facet of the “picture” business NOT the “music” business. So John makes sure, once you have achieved a certain status with him, that you’ll get that credit in the picture, but not on the album. http://www.tracksounds.com/specialfeatures/Interviews/interviewcp.htm Once and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 Interesting, @Muad'Dib. This is just the kind of thing I was hoping to find. I can definitely see JW's reasoning for not giving an orchestration credit on album. However, that still doesn't fully explain why he doesn't give them a special thanks credit or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,359 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Probably the same reason DVD covers don't list second unit Directors etc. Once and Unlucky Bastard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RICHARDSTRAUSS68 107 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Rose Dawson said: Dill weed. In the cabinet. Second shelf to the left. Behind the oregano. Sí señor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 It makes some sense, I suppose. For Williams, the orchestrators are a way to make the music come together in time for the film. The album is something different in his eyes. And hell, the performers themselves are important, but only soloists are typically credited. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 57 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said: I know I brought this exact interview somewhere else, but it's worth bringing it up again. CP refers to Conrad Pope http://www.tracksounds.com/specialfeatures/Interviews/interviewcp.htm Huh. I hadn't seen that before. It's interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 22 minutes ago, Datameister said: It makes some sense, I suppose. For Williams, the orchestrators are a way to make the music come together in time for the film. The album is something different in his eyes. Yes, I thought about that too. I guess it sort of does make sense. 22 minutes ago, Datameister said: The album is something different in his eyes. Thor's victory LOL. 22 minutes ago, Datameister said: And hell, the performers themselves are important, but only soloists are typically credited. You're referring to the film or the album here? EDIT: I'm presuming the album. However: All of Williams' 2010s scores except for TFA listed every member of the orchestra, yet none of them credited orchestrators, despite them being used on Tintin, War Horse, and TFA (I think the others didn't). TFA's (Ross) was in the film end credits. Not sure about the other two films, though, although I think maybe at least some orchestrators were credited for each in the film (interestingly, IIRC there were actually others that weren't credited anywhere, at least for Tintin; their contributions must have been deemed too small, perhaps what Pope was referring to with his "certain status" comment). This credit-the-whole-orchestra thing might be new, though (?). For example, when I started this thread, I mentioned ROTS and the booklet doesn't credit the orchestra members by name or orchestrators. Then again, those musicians aren't credited in the film credits and I'm betting the orchestrators are although I don't know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,359 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 TFA did credit guest conductors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 Just now, Fennel Ka said: TFA did credit guest conductors Conductors, yes, in the booklet and the film. But the orchestration credit was only in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Imagine what people would say if Zimmer wasn't crediting his orchestrators though... Will and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 5 hours ago, Muad'Dib said: CC: I just had a quick look at the notes for the original Sony Classical release for Episode 1, but didn’t find your name there, unfortunately. CP: John’s point is that, he is the author of that music – fully and completely. When you take one of his albums, he is saying, “Look I am the architect of all the colors and you (the orchestrator) have just executed them.” And this makes perfect sense. I’m the same way. CC: But you are credited in many of the film credits. CP: Yes. You see, in the picture business the orchestration credit is a specific facet of the “picture” business NOT the “music” business. So John makes sure, once you have achieved a certain status with him, that you’ll get that credit in the picture, but not on the album. Wow. Williams is a real douche. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 He is a pretty lovable douche though. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,518 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I love getting these glimpses into Williams' "secret side", i.e. less of the humble, caring 'grandfather' and more of the uncompromising auteur who likes to control most of the facets of his output. Adds complexity to the persona. curlytoot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Incanus 5,715 Posted December 31, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2016 Yes. But I have been under the impression for years that Williams is an auteur as much as the next artist when it comes to his music. It is his music after all and he wants to signal that it has been written by him, especially on soundtrack releases that put the music in the spotlight. He has been, as far as I can recall, very consistent with this habit. You most often see Williams' orchestrators credited in the film credits in a regular way. There have been special cases where Williams has given greater credit on a soundtrack album of which the best example is Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets where he insisted on Music Adapted by William Ross credit from the start and on the Force Awakens both William Ross and Gustavo Dudamel were credited as conductors. I am sure the latter for the sheer publicity but Ross took over some of the sessions because of Williams' health issues when he got his pace-maker. To add to the grandfatherly good natured image I have to say Williams has always been vocal in his praise for the musicians and crew working on his music and always taking pains to point this out, especially in the recent years. Cerebral Cortex, curlytoot and Will 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Thor said: I love getting these glimpses into Williams' "secret side", i.e. less of the humble, caring 'grandfather' and more of the uncompromising auteur who likes to control most of the facets of his output. Adds complexity to the persona. I don't like the complexity! I like the "JW can do no wrong" image! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,670 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, Will said: I don't like the complexity! I like the "JW can do no wrong" image! I realize you are mostly joking, but why would it be "wrong" in any way to want control over one's own works of art? He is humble insofar as he doesn't think his music is as good as it actually is (or you subjectivists can substitute "popular" for "good") and does not gloat about his success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 47 minutes ago, Tom said: I realize you are mostly joking, but why would it be "wrong" in any way to want control over one's own works of art? Oh, that's absolutely true, it's not wrong. I could totally understand why Williams wouldn't want to put an orchestration credit on the album. That's kind of a dirty word for many people. I remember being at a recent Williams live to projection concert with my dad, who's a classical music traditionalist and won't really accept that JW is anything more than a good film composer. I cringed when the orchestration credit came on the screen because I figured that might hurt his opinion of JW. Because in general "orchestration" is a major role! I can totally see why Williams wouldn't want that credit on album (where his music is the focus). However, still, why not give them a "special thanks" mention? I can sort of maybe see the rationale for not doing this either, I guess... Maybe having the orchestrators names anywhere on the album still bothers JW. He wants to make sure that the only "music creation" employee (as opposed to music prep, editing, and mixing) credited on album is himself. It is only because I'm used to Williams nearly always going above and beyond and taking the extreme moral high ground that things like this that show he is only human and wants respect bother me. (Another example would be when he quit as Pops conductor, although he ultimately returned.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 The interesting thing I've mentioned earlier is that later expanded releases DO credit orchestrators. For instance, the recent Sony reissue box set that included the 2CD Sony OT scores and the prequel OSTs (released last year) credits Herb Spencer for "orchestrations" on each OT score. But the OSTs for ANH and TESB did not credit Spencer (not sure about ROTJ). In that same box set, the included prequel OSTs do not credit orchestrators, even though I believe they were credited in the films (and they were certainly used!) The TFA OST didn't credit the orchestrator Ross either, despite him being credited in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Don't forget in the Star Wars OT all LSO players were credited in the albums (where else had that been done on an OST? This was definitely in ANH and ESB but maybe not in the truncated ROTJ) so I'm not sure if one can draw a general conclusion about why someone is or isn't credited. In some high profile projects there are very many people involved who don't get credit. The names are submitted but eventually deemed as "and the rest" like the Professor and Mary Anne from Gilligan's Island. Wasn't Herb Spencer credited in the OT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,844 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 In this thread we have discovered that JW definitely does have an ego and likes to control his work. I think this has been obvious to any hardcore JW fan already. We are talking about a composer who micro-edits his own OSTs to hell and back. Another JW characteristic is that he likes to hide a good deal of his process. Its pencil and paper and then suddenly the orchestra is recording the music with nothing in between. That's just how he likes to talk about his process. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 hour ago, artguy360 said: We are talking about a composer who micro-edits his own OSTs to hell and back. Well, that could be less ego and more not feeling that the complete score is worthy of release. Who knows. 1 hour ago, artguy360 said: Another JW characteristic is that he likes to hide a good deal of his process. Its pencil and paper and then suddenly the orchestra is recording the music with nothing in between. That's just how he likes to talk about his process. That is true, I can't think of many instances where the orchestrators or copyists are mentioned. Although I'd guess that isn't unique to JW, to say the least -- but it still is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 13 hours ago, karelm said: Don't forget in the Star Wars OT all LSO players were credited in the albums (where else had that been done on an OST? This was definitely in ANH and ESB but maybe not in the truncated ROTJ) so I'm not sure if one can draw a general conclusion about why someone is or isn't credited. In some high profile projects there are very many people involved who don't get credit. The names are submitted but eventually deemed as "and the rest" like the Professor and Mary Anne from Gilligan's Island. Wasn't Herb Spencer credited in the OT? ANH OST LP credited all orchestra members by name, but not Spencer, according to: http://vinylalbumcovers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/starwarsinsertfront.png TESB OST LP credited all orchestra members by name, but again not Spencer (see this site: http://www.jw-collection.de/scores.htm; scroll to TESB) No idea what was on the ROTJ OST. It’s interesting that you’re generalizing things, but I think it’s pretty clear based on various OST booklets and the Pope interview that there is a very purposeful effort to not credit orchestrators on the OST album. This sometimes even applies to later releases as well, although it seems those tend to credit the orchestrators. Regarding what you were saying about how some contributions are deemed too insignificant to be credited: That happens in the film end credits with JW’s orchestrators, actually. Eddie Karam is the only orchestrator credited in the Tintin end credits (none are on the album) (see here at 1:08: It’s low quality, but you can make it out the credit at the top of the screen, and it’s corroborated by the film’s IMDB page), but we know that Conrad Pope worked on the project as well (http://www.jwfan.com/?p=446). We see frequently, that when Williams deems an orchestrators' compositions worthy of a credit, the credit is in the film. However, even Karam wasn’t credited on the OST! You’d think that when a contribution is significant enough for the film, it’s significant enough for the OST. So it does seem like a clear effort by Williams to avoid crediting orchestrators on the OST. His reasoning there does kind of make sense, but it is certainly very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Whoops, forgot the Tintin end credits link I referenced: Btw sorry for lengthening my posts with all sorts of sources and stuff. I just want to make sure that people know where I'm getting this information so they can have confidence in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Jerry Goldsmith credited his orchestrators on his albums and alternates between Arthur Morton and Sandy Courage for decades. I've never been able to distinguish the slightest bit of difference between a Morton or a Courage orchestrated score. This is a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 16 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Jerry Goldsmith credited his orchestrators on his albums and alternates between Arthur Morton and Sandy Courage for decades. I've never been able to distinguish the slightest bit of difference between a Morton or a Courage orchestrated score. This is a non-issue. The question I was asking was never, "Who orchestrated ------------ JW score?" Orchestrations are credited in the film and/or mention they worked on the films in interviews. It's no secret. The question was, "Why aren't they credited on the OSTs?" Ultimately, I think the reason is fascinating and revealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Apologies. I'm old. So i've been hearing and participating in the Williams/orchestrators debate for over...longer than you walk upon this good green Earth. I should have realized its all still new and facinating to you. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,670 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Apologies. I'm old. So i've been hearing and participating in the Williams/orchestrators debate for over...longer than you walk upon this good green Earth. I should have realized its all still new and facinating to you. The problem is that the term "orchestrator" is ambiguous. In the case of JW or JG, it is just the musical equivalent to a typesetter, and thus not part of the art itself. in the case of others, the orchestrator does 20-40% of the work in the creation of the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I don't see how micro-editing OSTs indicates JW has an ego. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Yeah I never got that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,844 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Not ego in the sense that JW is full of himself but rather ego in the sense that he is protective and highly aware of how his work is presented. JW is a master of his craft. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Yes, Williams is extremely aware and extremely cautious of how he presents both his work and himself to the world. I wouldn't call that ego though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Tom said: The problem is that the term "orchestrator" is ambiguous. In the case of JW or JG, it is just the musical equivalent to a typesetter, and thus not part of the art itself. in the case of others, the orchestrator does 20-40% of the work in the creation of the music. Interesting. So basically, Williams is writing piano music and then someone else is expanding it for the full orchestral setting? MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Gnome in Plaid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Yeah, Brock. We're at the piano. You copy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,670 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 38 minutes ago, Prerecorded Briefing said: Interesting. So basically, Williams is writing piano music and then someone else is expanding it for the full orchestral setting? what evidence do you have that he writes piano music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I don't think you get where John Williams is without having to chop some heads down the road. You can't be a nice cheerful grandfather to everyone, especially in a business where there's always someone behind trying to take you down. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jilal 569 Posted January 2, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2017 11 hours ago, Tom said: what evidence do you have that he writes piano music? I heard he only writes the first violin part himself and gives that to Pope and Karam these days. Right, @Prerecorded Briefing? I actually have the sketch score for 'The Falcon'. It's one page full of 1 staff systems with a couple of musical indications here and there as well as some written markings (e.g. "Rebel fanfare here Eddie baby" and "maybe some of your ol' ticky ticky xylo, pno & ww here, Conrad"). End of the page says "Fine laus deo hope that JJ ass likes the rewrite". Will, Gnome in Plaid and MikeH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Conrad Pope didn't work on TFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 43 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Conrad Pope didn't work on TFA. Lies to keep the plebs from complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,318 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Everyone knows Conrad Pope wrote TFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,515 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 To be fair "Colin Runs Off to the Circus" sounds somewhat like The Falcon so you may not be far off: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I'd say that's more a case of Pope picking out elements out of working with Williams for so many years, but it could a mutual thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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