New John Williams/Matessino 2017 Project Announcement!

[Incanus 5,714]

1 minute ago, crumbs said:

He's... Randy Thornton... at Disney Music.

 

To the best of my knowledge, anyway.

It's not about WHO he is but who he IS.

[crumbs 14,316]

After doing some exhaustive research by pasting his name into Google, I can safely say he looks suspiciously like HR Giger. 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, and he's the Supervising Producer for Disney Music Group and he's had ten Gold Records, four platinum records, six Grammy nominations and one Grammy win. A serial underachiever, by the sounds of it.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

No. I made an version years ago combining the Anthology with the SE.

 

Disc 1 has major clipping issues!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

 

9 minutes ago, Mr. Breathmask said:

 

Disc 1 has major clipping issues!

 

The Anthology or the SE?

[Quintus 5,399]

Maybe JW has had a change of heart about The Sugarland Express. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's possible.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Look, Sulu. Ze sun'z cum out... it's a millicle.

[Quintus 5,399]

"But I don't want Sugarland released, I've made myself clear on that." 

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

3 hours ago, Daniel Clamp said:

 

Well I think it's all intact on Disc 2 of LLL's release. It was a huge David Arnold cue I wanted for years.

 

Idiot.

 

2 hours ago, Incanus said:

It's not about WHO he is but who he IS.

 

I could tell you who he is, but that wouldn't really tell you who he is.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Don't forget these endless medleys of the SEs. It is necessary to bond together a few cues, but in order to prevent a score having 60 tracks or more! RotJ has 20 tracks because there are cues connected that do not belong together at all! For me that's another reason of a new release.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It largely followed how Williams intended it in the film.

[crumbs 14,316]

I hate those combo tracks passionately, they are instant skips on my iPod. 

 

Much prefer MM's current approach where cues are mostly left separated even if they are meant to join together (with some exceptions).

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

3 hours ago, Daniel Clamp said:

The Anthology or the SE?

 

Steef's edit combining the two.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Absolutely, the older the scores the more vulnerable they are to being lost forever.

 

With luck, most of JW's scores are well preserved in the various archives.

 

I was a little shaken by Matessino's story in the podcast interview about how the Jurassic Park recordings were on the verge of deteriorating pretty badly before he convinced them to let him digitize them.  If even JP isn't safe....

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

It largely followed how Williams intended it in the film.

It largely followed how it appeared in the movie, even if the cues weren't intended to be connected on CD. The Battle of Hoth for example had three individual action pieces, one playing immediately after another in the movie, so it became a medley on the SE. The Anthology Box presents each cue seperate and there you see they are doing well as individual cues.

 

TPM Ultimate Edition did the contrary. - Worse!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

28 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

It largely followed how it appeared in the movie, even if the cues weren't intended to be connected on CD.

 

What does that mean "not intended to be connected on CD"? Doesn't mean anything. If a cue segues into another in the film, then it (generally) means it was written as such (the composer wrote the various cues to form one long (cohesive) musical sequence), and logically should be presented as is on CD. Whether you like that or not, or whether it makes for a nice listening experience or not is a different matter entirely. But to say "they weren't intended to be connected on CD" makes no sense, since the cues were written for the film to begin with.

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

I still find the Anthology the only valid release of the three originals (leaving aside the OST's and their somewhat compromised history). It's just the perfect length for each score with some interesting alternates, all this handwrestling for newer, better, faster, meaner new releases is just the usual fuzzy fanboy bullshit. The prequels are the only still deserving projects.

 

And the sequences for Williams best run in between 3 and 5 minutes - it makes much more sense musically than having a 15-minute Hoth battle with clumsy transitions.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

4 minutes ago, publicist said:

I still find the Anthology the only valid release of the three originals (leaving aside the OST's and their somewhat compromised history). It's just the perfect length for each score with some interesting alternates, all this handwrestling for newer, better, faster, meaner new releases is just the usual fuzzy fanboy bullshit. The prequels are the only still deserving projects.

 

And the sequences for Williams best run in between 3 and 5 minutes - it makes much more sense musically than having a 15-minute Hoth battle with clumsy transitions.

 

I definitely prefer how the Anthology broke up the "Battle of Endor" cues as opposed to the SE releases that combined them all into a few tracks.

[TownerFan 4,983]

2 minutes ago, publicist said:

I still find the Anthology the only valid release of the three originals (leaving aside the OST's and their somewhat compromised history). It's just the perfect length for each score with some interesting alternates, all this handwrestling for newer, better, faster, meaner new releases is just the usual fuzzy fanboy bullshit. The prequels are the only still deserving projects.

 

And the sequences for Williams best run in between 3 and 5 minutes - it makes much more sense musically than having a 15-minute Hoth battle with clumsy transitions.

 

To each his or her own. Personally, I think that listening to the whole Hoth battle sequence as Williams wrote and intended it to be (with the correct overlaps, the 1997 SE is all wrong) is much more exhilarating. It's like listening to the full "Ice Battle" from Prokofiev's Nevskij. Or the Yavin Battle in Episode IV--it's so great to have the "Standing By" cue segueing correctly into the next. The same can be said of other set pieces from the original trilogy. But again, everyone has his or her own preferences in these things.

[crumbs 14,316]

I find the long cues incredibly tedious when you just want to listen to a particular moment, like the Emperor's Death or Luke going apeshit against Vader.

 

Having 3 tracks for the entire Endor battle was just a terrible creative decision, especially when the cues that comprise them are mostly solid lengths on their own (2+ minutes). 

 

Plus I find most of the Ewok music incredibly grating and would much rather just have a playlist with the sections I want to hear regularly, mainly the music with Luke, Vader and the Emperor.

 

Just my opinion of course.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, crumbs said:

I find the long cues incredibly tedious when you just want to listen to a particular moment, like the Emperor's Death or Luke going apeshit against Vader.

 

Having 3 tracks for the entire Endor battle was just a terrible creative decision, especially when the cues that comprise them are mostly solid lengths on their own (2+ minutes). 

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

Yep.  Having to skip around if I want to hear a specific cue like "The Emperor's Death" (probably my most returned-to cue of ROTJ) is very annoying.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

9 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Just my opinion of course.

 

I kind of got that from the two times you said "I find", the one time you said "would much rather" and "I want".

[crumbs 14,316]

Never can be too careful on the internet!

[publicist 4,643]

For every 1-minute cue where it makes sense there is another 10-minute whopper of contrasting scenes and moods where it is just not necessary to join them (not musically, anyway).

 

Horner was really the only composer who ever had the desire to get up to 10 or minutes apiece, Williams' cues mostly are designed as i wrote: ranging between 2 or 3 to up to 5 or 6 minutes, seldom do they run longer (naturally). That there are overlaps in densely scored movies like SW is not surprising but i find the overlap of i. e. 'Luke' Crash' and 'Rebels escape Again' incredibly tedious (and musically illogical).

[Jay 37,364]

On 1/2/2017 at 5:09 AM, BloodBoal said:

 

The Star Wars trilogy can't be done because of all the rights issue right now (Sony (who seems unwilling to do anything with the scores), Fox (who owns the first film and its score to perpetuity) and shit), plus, as it's been said countless times in other threads, since Disney now owns the franchise, it's highly unlikely they'll ever give the right to do complete/expanded sets to a label. They'll prefer to do it themselves.

 

Disney will of course want to release them on their own label and not let a specialty label do it, but they can still hire Mike Matessino to produce them, you know.

[TownerFan 4,983]

8 minutes ago, publicist said:

Williams' cues mostly are designed as i wrote: ranging between 2 or 3 to up to 5 or 6 minutes, seldom do they run longer (naturally). That there are overlaps in densely scored movies like SW is not surprising but i find the overlap of i. e. 'Luke' Crash' and 'Rebels escape Again' incredibly tedious (and musically illogical).

 

The fact Williams splits long sequences into shorter cues (esp. in the case of action sequences) it's mostly for practical reasons during recording. When you have elaborate action pieces that also have to hit several sync points, it's much more practical to record in 2-3 minutes chunks. This way he can also control overall performance much better. But the music IS meant to be continuous. Of course it's understandable that it can become fatiguing for the ears to listen to a 15 mins action piece, so it's fine to prefer to have it split in shorter cues on the OST album as well. Williams always thinks those long sequences as one continuous piece of music, however.

[Jay 37,364]

On 1/2/2017 at 5:37 AM, Mr. Breathmask said:

I'm still quite happy to have my expanded CE3K, E.T. and Indiana Jones sets, all produced by Bouzereau!

 

Still, I'd be happy to see an updated release that's on the same level as stuff like A.I., Jaws and the John Williams Jurassic Park Collection.

 

This is how I feel!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

On 1/2/2017 at 5:56 AM, crumbs said:

Excellent news, straight off one JW project and onto a new one. Seems like Williams' camp want to keep rolling through these expansions as much as we do.

 

I wonder what's changed in this regard?

 

Well, the podcast interview Mike Matessino did, it was stated that the JP boxset basically happened because of the JP live to projection concert.  So with two other currently running JW LTTP concert (Home Alone and Jaws) already have a recently Matessino expansion, maybe the other currently running concerts (ET, Raiders, Harry Potter 1-3) are next?  Who knows!

 

 

 

 

On 1/2/2017 at 6:11 AM, Stefancos said:

If there is one thing that has possibly changed it's that Williams, as an composer and album producer always cut his albums with the general public in mind. The alterations he suggested to the Bouzereau releases seem to reflect that also.

Perhaps Matessino etc have been able to make him aware of the fact that these albums produced by the speciality labels are designed for a very small niche market. I mean a big famous score like Jurassic park gets a complete rerelease of only 5000 units. My guess is Williams understand that we arent looking so much for a best listening experience on album but would prefer to see the composers original intention preserved on disc as much as possible. 

 

Hey, that's a great point!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I know I've completely thrown away all my intellectual credibility here, but I do on occasion make good points.

[Jay 37,364]

On 1/2/2017 at 7:27 AM, crumbs said:

Disney will saturate the market with all 6 OT and PT scores on their own label the moment they secure the rights. Why on earth wouldn't they? It's nothing more than a wasted revenue stream otherwise, with Sony taking all the money from whatever old stock they have lying around.

 

I think they will too - the question would be if AFTER that straight up reissue, they'd be willing to fund a new edition overseen by Matessino that actually includes everything from each score.

 

The good news is that Kathleen Kennedy was the producer of all the Spielberg films he's been expanding in recent years, so if she's happy with those (and the revenue they provided), she might be willing to fund a new edition for him to oversee.

And I don't know if Disney necessarily has to WAIT for Sony's license to end... they might be able to give Sony a bunch of money to buy them out of it, I would think.  Who knows!

 

 

 

On 1/2/2017 at 9:41 AM, Will said:

I do recall - didn't Jay say that he's unsure whether the OT and PT rights leave Sony for Disney in 2017 or 2019? 

 

Well, this year is 2017!

 

Nobody seems to know (or want to say) when their license expires.  It's either 2017 because a 20-year license was given to RCA Victor in 1997 for the 2CD sets (which Sony later absorbed), or 2019 because Sony was given a 20 year license in 1999 when they released the TPM OST.

 

Either way, as I've said, Disney could theorectically buy the license out early anyway, I would think (not sure though).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

On 1/2/2017 at 10:12 AM, crumbs said:

Generally most of his Spielberg/Williams releases have had fairly fast turnarounds, haven't they?

 

I know some releases can be quite difficult though, waiting on various levels of approval, such as actors featured in artwork and stuff like that.

 

I think the fast turnaround is only the time between when Matessino gets all the proper elements and when the CD comes out.  There could be a LONG period of time between when a specialty label is able to acquire a license and when proper elements for every cue are finally turned up - a LONG time.

 

 

 

 

On 1/2/2017 at 10:44 AM, crumbs said:

Also worth considering the anecdote about the shakuhachi flute in Jurassic Park, where MM was able to extract just that part of the score for their concerts, as they wanted to avoid having one live. Then consider the range of exotic orchestration in the 3 Potter scores and think about how isolating a few of these from the original master tapes would make a huge difference for those scores being performed live. Then put two and two together about what scores Williams' camp would want MM working on.

 

That's a brilliant analysis, but one thing to point out:  The Harry Potter concerts are run by CineConcerts, which don't seem to involve the composers much in their work.  Film Concerts Live! runs the others (Jaws, Jurassic Park, Home Alone, ET, and Raiders) and it is clear Matessino, Kennedy, JW and the labels have some sort of synergy going on with those.  So ET seems more likely to me, at least to have a connection between a specialty label CD and the concerts.  Kathleen Kennedy has nothing to do with Harry Potter either.  I think those will happen if WB wants to license out to specialty labels, and the concerts don't really come into play.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

12 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

I think the fast turnaround is only the time between when Matessino gets all the proper elements and when the CD comes out.  There could be a LONG period of time between when a specialty label is able to acquire a license and when proper elements for every cue are finally turned up - a LONG time.

 

 

I would think this is also where it helps if the score is being adapted for live-to-projection.  These LTP concerts generate much more revenue than a limited run soundtrack release so there's more money/motivation to get all the "proper elements" lined up.  And then, basically while they've got all this stuff out, might as well produce a new release while we're at it.

[Jay 37,364]

16 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

What's about "Witches of Eastwick" or "Born on the Fourth July"? What is the license situation here?

 

Perseverance Records obtained the license to release The Witches of Eastwick on CD a few years back.  It sold out last year, meaning their license is expired.  I immediately emailed MV from LLL to let him know it was sold out, because he had previously posted publicly that if Perseverance hadn't beaten them to the license, he would have released an expanded version on LLL Records.  So, I think this is a prime candidate for a 30 anniversary edition this year, I would think.

 

Quote

And are the "Dracula" tapes actually lost or is it merely an assumption?

 

All that's really been stated publicly is that James Fitzpatrick of Tadlow Records said he was getting ready to try and re-record that score, but then stopped when he heard a label was issuing a new edition of the original film recordings.  Since then its kinda been said that all that's turned up is some kind of mono element - possibly the final film dub, but nothing stated with 100% certainly publicly.  So it seems we're in the dark until a new version is announced.  If JW is unhappy with the sound quality of the mono source, we might just get the origianl LP program repressed on CD with no additional music.

 

 

Quote

Taking all aforesaid aspects into consideration, the most likely scores to be expanded are E.T., Close Encounters, The Harry Potters and JFK, aren't they?

 

MV from LLL already publicly stated that "JFK" and "The Towering Inferno" are coming "2017 or later" from LLL Records, so there is no need to speculate about those two.  They are in the works.

 

We can also assume The Witches of Eastwick is pretty likely for the reasons I stated above.

 

It does seem, to me, that yes, CE3K and ET are likely candidates for expansion next.  CE3K because of hte 40th anniversary, LLL's relationship with Sony, it being JW's favorite work of his, Matessino liking it, and just generally the recent trend of expanding the biggest of Spielberg's hit films.  And ET because of the 35th anniversary, him bringing up ET in my AI interview, LLL AND/OR Intrada's relationship with Universal, it being another one of Spielberg's big hit films, and the live to projection concert.

[publicist 4,643]

48 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

The fact Williams splits long sequences into shorter cues (esp. in the case of action sequences) it's mostly for practical reasons during recording. 

 

So what? You want to honestly tell me the edits i singled out make musical sense? It's obviously two different pieces just were pasted together. Neither tempo, flow or keys match. It's imho no 'preference' matter: only movie fanboy thinking would find it logical to group these together (also not the beginning of the AT AT walkers with the prepared piano which now overlaps with the cue before, likewise not a pretty sight). 

 

I always prefer MUSIC to be put before any film considerations when the music is freely released on album. 

[Jay 37,364]

14 hours ago, DominicCobb said:

In regards to the conversation on expanded SW scores, what is there even left to release from the OT?

 

It's not about the seconds / minutes of stuff that isn't on CD yet.  It's about re-doing all three scores from scratch using the best possible elements (including ones that simply hadn't been located yet in 1997), making sure the include the correct film take of everything with all overdubs and inserts, every alternate, etc.... all mastered with modern technology that also didn't exist yet in 1997.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

It's not so much a matter of unreleased music (although there's still inserts, film versions and various music missing) but more about creating new tape transfers of the scores with modern equipment for vastly improved sound quality. Parts of the 2CD ROTJ sound atrocious, as if they were recorded underwater. 

 

There's also a time consideration here; the master tapes are nearly four decades old now and there's a risk of them disintegrating before getting scanned at high resolution (even the masters for Jurassic Park and The Lost World, only two decades old, were peeling when MM found them).

 

If you listen to the recent vinyl remasters the improvement in audio quality is phenomenal, like listening to a brand new score. That's simply a result of improved tape scanning technology; scanning analogue to digital simply wasn't advanced back when they last scanned the OT scores in 1996, resulting in some very flawed audio quality and losing many fine details in the scores.

 

It's the exact same situation with film remasters. Scanning technology is constantly improving and a modern 4K scan of a film will look vastly superior to a 4K scan done 10 years ago. There are some great examples of this, like the Indiana Jones trilogy or Alien. Then consider the most recent tape transfers for the Star Wars scores was using technology circa 1996!

 

 

ooops, you said it all better than I did

[Will 2,215]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

That's a brilliant analysis, but one thing to point out:  The Harry Potter concerts are run by CineConcerts, which don't seem to involve the composers much in their work.  Film Concerts Live! runs the others (Jaws, Jurassic Park, Home Alone, ET, and Raiders) and it is clear Matessino, Kennedy, JW and the labels have some sort of synergy going on with those.  So ET seems more likely to me, at least to have a connection between a specialty label CD and the concerts.  Kathleen Kennedy has nothing to do with Harry Potter either.  I think those will happen if WB wants to license out to specialty labels, and the concerts don't really come into play.

 

Well, it does seem like Williams arranged new intermission bits for the HPSS concert, so he's involved. And JKMS prepped the music for the concert. I do agree that Film Concerts Live seems more connected, though -- in fact, it's a co-venture including Williams' own agency, the Gorfaine/Schwartz Agency!

 

Whereas CineConcerts apparently isn't even entirely focused on LTP, also doing "music-interactive sporting event experiences" and "original 3D-environment holiday programming." Their site also feels much more "commercial-y." They refer to the concert as a "tour" and have all sorts of sparkles around the text. 

 

2 hours ago, TownerFan said:

 

The fact Williams splits long sequences into shorter cues (esp. in the case of action sequences) it's mostly for practical reasons during recording. When you have elaborate action pieces that also have to hit several sync points, it's much more practical to record in 2-3 minutes chunks. This way he can also control overall performance much better. But the music IS meant to be continuous. Of course it's understandable that it can become fatiguing for the ears to listen to a 15 mins action piece, so it's fine to prefer to have it split in shorter cues on the OST album as well. Williams always thinks those long sequences as one continuous piece of music, however.

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

 

So what? You want to honestly tell me the edits i singled out make musical sense? It's obviously two different pieces just were pasted together. Neither tempo, flow or keys match. It's imho no 'preference' matter: only movie fanboy thinking would find it logical to group these together (also not the beginning of the AT AT walkers with the prepared piano which now overlaps with the cue before, likewise not a pretty sight). 

 

I always prefer MUSIC to be put before any film considerations when the music is freely released on album. 

 

This "battle" is actually something I've been thinking about recently. On one hand, it is kind of nice to have all the cues separated. First, it makes tracks not quite as overwhelming, and second, the clean endings to cues can actually be really great. For example, the prequels have lots of big orchestral or drum hits to end many cues. These are masked when there's a cross fade to the next cue.

 

However, I do place a lot of value in the composer's intentions for the film, and it's true that Williams intends many of his cues to be cross faded (or immediately follow one another) in the film. Perhaps separating them is a disservice to the composer's vision. On the other hand, as Publicist notes, sometimes the transitions are rather jarring -- almost as if Williams actually wasn't thinking of them as one piece of music!

 

I'm thinking of doing a BFG edit and this is actually something I'm struggling with for it. For instance, "The Witching Hour" and "To Giant Country" were clearly written to cleanly go one after the other -- but on the OST and FYC they're separate. Additionally, in a long segment of music like "Building Trust" or "Dream Country," it's unclear whether/how many shorter cues might be involved. Therefore, there'd be no way for me to be consistent in letting each cue be a separate track if I wanted to go that route (unless others are better at figuring out where one cue ends and the other begins). So maybe the way to go would be simply to let the cues play in their "suites" with their intended transitions. Or, alternatively and perhaps preferably, I could more toward Publicist's route and do it on a case by case basis. For example, "The Witching Hour" and "To Giant Country" might be separate tracks, but "Building Trust" might be just one, even though it sounds like there might be more than one cue there. 

 

@Fennel Ka, @Datameister, and @Jilal, what's your approach here? 

[Jay 37,364]

47 minutes ago, Will said:

 

Well, it does seem like Williams arranged new intermission bits for the HPSS concert, so he's involved. And JKMS prepped the music for the concert. I do agree that Film Concerts Live seems more connected, though -- in fact, it's a co-venture including Williams' own agency, the Gorfaine/Schwartz Agency!

 

Whereas CineConcerts apparently isn't even entirely focused on LTP, also doing "music-interactive sporting event experiences" and "original 3D-environment holiday programming." Their site also feels much more "commercial-y." They refer to the concert as a "tour" and have all sorts of sparkles around the text. 

 

Exactly!

[Datameister 2,043]

@Will, my feeling is that clean openings and "as intended" segues can both be wonderful. For track length, 2-3 minutes does seem to be the sweet spot in terms of overall album flow, but I also really like hearing the unadulterated film score, and the intended overlaps are an integral part of that. (I also disagree with @publicist about whether some specific segues sound awkward.)

 

I prefer official releases with separated cues, but I typically use them to create my own edits that reflect the way Williams intended them to overlap. Then I can freely listen to either version whenever I feel like it.

[Jay 37,364]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I would think this is also where it helps if the score is being adapted for live-to-projection.  These LTP concerts generate much more revenue than a limited run soundtrack release so there's more money/motivation to get all the "proper elements" lined up.  And then, basically while they've got all this stuff out, might as well produce a new release while we're at it.

 

I don't know if they need anything from the recording sessions for these concerts generally, though.  For the most part, they are playing a dub of the film with the score taken out, and the orchestra does all the music.  The Jurassic Park situation, where they wanted the shakuhachi flute from the original recording session to be played on-demand, is the first I've heard of them needing something from the sessions they wouldn't had.  Generally they just work around other shortcomings (such as changing an exotic instrument out for a more common one, having the choir coming out of the speakers, etc).

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I prefer official releases with separated cues, but I typically use them to create my own edits that reflect the way Williams intended them to overlap. Then I can freely listen to either version whenever I feel like it.

 

The wonders of modern digital audio editing!

[TownerFan 4,983]

4 minutes ago, Datameister said:

@Will, my feeling is that clean openings and "as intended" segues can both be wonderful. For track length, 2-3 minutes does seem to be the sweet spot in terms of overall album flow, but I also really like hearing the unadulterated film score, and the intended overlaps are an integral part of that. (I also disagree with @publicist about whether some specific segues sound awkward.)

 

I prefer official releases with separated cues, but I typically use them to create my own edits that reflect the way Williams intended them to overlap. Then I can freely listen to either version whenever I feel like it.

 

Well said. What I was too trying to say wasn't an "either-or" situation, nor being just slave to the film presentation. When it comes to these things, film score listeners have very specific preferences and luckily we live in an era where we can listen to Star Wars or TESB or Hook the way we prefer, be it with cues separated or conjoined. It's basically a non-issue for me. I typically prefer to listen to the score with all the segues correctly done (especially if they're in the complete/chronological format), but it's not a rule set in stone. When a producer like Matessino works on these projects, I guess these are factors at play and some decisions have to be made in one way or another.

[publicist 4,643]

This may be a personal impression but i don't think so: these cues in the Hoth battle we were talking about are single pieces, just that. They are not meant to be segued - that is, if you just for a moment can persuade yourself to forget a movie sequence you feel so enslaved to. These are clearly single sequences the composer wrote as such pieces. They have beginnings and endings (ROTJ is clearly less operatic in that sense but still, 'Into the Trap' is one cue, as is 'The Emperor's Death').

 

That you join them, or indeed the whole ESB score, for that matter, is your god-given right but i still find the idea abhorrent to get such box set i pay for with such Frankenstein edits made by the producer. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Well, the point is all that cues like "Into the Trap", "The Emperor's Death" or "Through the Flames" are pieces hidden in a mass called "Battle of...". In the film every cue of the "Battle of Hoth" plays immediately after another, but their last chords are also cut, when a new scene/cue sets in. And that's why they couldn't be meant to segue. It's the same thing with "On the Glass" and "Rescuing Sarah" as well as "Visitor in San Diego" and "Ludlow's End". - They are seperate tracks since the last and the first beats would have overlapped.

 

"The Quidditch Match" or "The Ultimate War" just consist of several cues because of practical reasons.

[Will 2,215]

41 minutes ago, publicist said:

This may be a personal impression but i don't think so: these cues in the Hoth battle we were talking about are single pieces, just that. They are not meant to be segued - that is, if you just for a moment can persuade yourself to forget a movie sequence you feel so enslaved to. These are clearly single sequences the composer wrote as such pieces. They have beginnings and endings (ROTJ is clearly less operatic in that sense but still, 'Into the Trap' is one cue, as is 'The Emperor's Death').

 

That you join them, or indeed the whole ESB score, for that matter, is your god-given right but i still find the idea abhorrent to get such box set i pay for with such Frankenstein edits made by the producer. 

 

What's your opinion on, say, Journey to the Island? 

 

Williams had input on both the OST and LLL, and in both cases it's one piece, with each cue segueing to the next. 

 

What do you think about Williams' SW OST _____ and Finale tracks? Should Jedi Steps be a separate track from the end credits? 

 

I definitely see where you're coming from. I'm just asking what you think about some other examples. 

 

I still don't quite get what you mean by "they're not meant to be segued," though. You're not disputing that Williams knew when writing that they would segue, right? You are simply disputing the notion that Williams thinks of The Battle of Hoth as one long piece - you in fact believe he thinks of it as a set of pieces? 

 

17 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Well, the point is all that cues like "Into the Trap", "The Emperor's Death" or "Through the Flames" are pieces hidden in a mass called "Battle of...". In the film every cue of the "Battle of Hoth" plays immediately after another, but their last chords are also cut, when a new scene/cue sets in. And that's why they couldn't be meant to segue. It's the same thing with "On the Glass" and "Rescuing Sarah" as well as "Visitor in San Diego" and "Ludlow's End". - They are seperate tracks since the last and the first beats would have overlapped.

 

"The Quidditch Match" or "The Ultimate War" just consist of several cues because of practical reasons.

 

Largely because I'm not too familiar with many of the cues you mention (I'm rather new to Williams fandom!), I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing. Could you re-explain (or does someone else understand)?

[Datameister 2,043]

51 minutes ago, publicist said:

This may be a personal impression but i don't think so: these cues in the Hoth battle we were talking about are single pieces, just that. They are not meant to be segued - that is, if you just for a moment can persuade yourself to forget a movie sequence you feel so enslaved to. These are clearly single sequences the composer wrote as such pieces. They have beginnings and endings (ROTJ is clearly less operatic in that sense but still, 'Into the Trap' is one cue, as is 'The Emperor's Death').

 

If I were enslaved to the film, I'd want to mimic all the edits heard in it - tracking, looping, omitted passages, that sort of thing. I'm just interested in hearing the composer's original intentions. And make no mistake about it, segues are among Williams' original-est intentions: he plans them before he even composes the music, and when a cue is going to segue into another, he writes that segue down in the sheet music. This isn't some editorial decision made by a filmmaker - it's part of his thought process in writing the music. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong...many, perhaps most of Williams' segued cues play well independently. I don't think that's an accident - I'm sure it helps with both the film and the album, and I'd hazard a guess that it satisfies some deeper musical and conceptual concerns in Williams' head. In fact, considering how often he sequences OSTs with cues like these separated from each other, I think it's accurate to say he intends for them to be heard both ways. But in any case, the claim that Williams doesn't intend the segues to occur is simply inaccurate. He writes them - with detailed timings! - right into his original sketches.

[DominicCobb 194]

I guess it depends how you listen to the music. I rarely do playlists. Usually if I'm listening to a score I'm wanting to listen to the music of the movie. So longer pieces of joined together cues, as in the films, makes sense, and is a better listen if you're going through the whole thing. The whole Battle of Hoth is fantastic, and I find it hard to imagine just wanting to listen to the separate cues (and I have). In the film it's one whole sequence, so I appreciate listening to it that way. 

 

Battle of Endor I kind of sympathize with the desire for separate cues because it's jumping between three very different elements.

[publicist 4,643]

17 minutes ago, Will said:

 

What's your opinion on, say, Journey to the Island? 

 

Williams had input on both the OST and LLL, and in both cases it's one piece, with each cue segueing to the next. 

 

What do you think about Williams' SW OST _____ and Finale tracks? Should Jedi Steps be a separate track from the end credits? 

 

'Journey to the Island' is one cue, there isn't really much forced except, if we're anal, the abrupt mood change when the jeeps drive to the Visitor center but again, that's just a change in a scene accommodated in JW's writing which i find is distinctly not the case in the ESB/ROTJ examples were cues with distinctly own beginnings, middle sections and ends are just piled onto another.

[Will 2,215]

5 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

'Journey to the Island' is one cue, there isn't really much forced except, if we're anal, the abrupt mood change when the jeeps drive to the Visitor center but again, that's just a change in a scene accommodated in JW's writing which i find is distinctly not the case in the ESB/ROTJ examples were cues with distinctly own beginnings, middle sections and ends are just piled onto another.

 

Technically, "Journey to the Island" is three cues segued together. 

 

I'm not familiar enough with "The Battle of Hoth" or the TESB film to fully understand what you're saying. 

[publicist 4,643]

4 minutes ago, Datameister said:

But in any case, the claim that Williams doesn't intend the segues to occur is simply inaccurate. He writes them - with detailed timings! - right into his original sketches.

 

Of course he writes the pieces not independently, how could he. But they are still written as single cues, never mind segues in the movie (where you don't hear them, anyway).

 

I'm just making my point that James Horner wrote really long developed pieces and if he would have written a 15-minute battle cue for the Hoth sequence, it sure would have none of these start/stop thingies just because that is not really the way you develop such a cue, musically/classically. And since Williams isn't Horner's inferior by any means, i must assume he did what he did because he wanted to write a lot of smaller pieces with their own life and development within them. All what i know about Williams' career, and i know the most of his output, agrees with me that he just likes to write smaller sections as single pieces and rarely indulges in mammoth cues going on forever (anomalies like 'Hook' excluded, where the music just works overtime). 

 

That you can join them: for sure...i'm just saying no one is going to convince me that it makes a lot of sense, musically.